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Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

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k0wa@swbell.net

Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

Ladies and Gents.....

I have been trying to follow the threads on IMD performance of the K3 and the S-Meter thread of the K3. Could someone explain (to a Liberal Arts Major - not an engineering type) what the issues are here and why they are issues with this radio? Maybe, I'm lost in all the hullabaloo.

Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power connector "junk" that cannot be fixed?

Thank you for the education.....

Lee Buller - K0WA
K3 SN 443
K2 SN 1056

In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?

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Kurt Pawlikowski

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

Lee,

Don't know about the connector issues (I suppose that might be a
matter of personal preference). The S-Meter issue has to do with "fine"
adjustments. Since the meter is a bar graph type, "blocks" are either
lit or not. If, for instance, you are attempting to "see" the difference
between 4.3 blocks and 4.4 blocks, they display the same (either 4 or 5
blocks, depending on software design). Apparently, this design issue is
also in the data given to a control computer. That is, instead of giving
a "value" (i.e., 4.321), it is just mimicking the bar graph (i.e., 4
"blocks"). So, if you're trying to make a comparative measurement
between similar signals, unless they "happen" to be on the "edge" of two
"block" values, they will look the same. While this is normal for this
type of display, it is a little unusual for the computer data stream.
That usually reflects "raw" data. Does that help? {'-)

Regards,

kurtt

Kurt Pawlikowski, AKA WB9FMC
The Pinrod Corporation
[hidden email]
(773) 284-9500
http://pinrod.com

Lee Buller wrote:

>
>
> Ladies and Gents.....
>
> I have been trying to follow the threads on IMD performance of the K3
> and the S-Meter thread of the K3. Could someone explain (to a Liberal
> Arts Major - not an engineering type) what the issues are here and
> why they are issues with this radio? Maybe, I'm lost in all the
> hullabaloo.
>
> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power connector
> "junk" that cannot be fixed?
>
> Thank you for the education.....
>
> Lee Buller - K0WA
> K3 SN 443
> K2 SN 1056
>
> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If
> you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If
> you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has
> some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

Lee,

> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter

Because some people do not understand the difference between an
amateur transceiver and a $10,000 piece laboratory test equipment.
The K3's S-meter circuit is derived form the IF DSP and provides
a very accurate scale in S-unit (5 dB) steps. It does not
provide an analog voltage with infinite resolution.

> and the power connector "junk" that cannot be fixed?

The power connector is an Anderson PowerPole and some people
(unfairly) object to the use PowerPole connectors.

In "liberal arts" terms, there are always those who expect a
Ferrari or Maserati for the same price as a Chevrolet Cobalt.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:22 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] Questions from a Liberal Arts Major
>
>
>
>
> Ladies and Gents.....
>
> I have been trying to follow the threads on IMD performance
> of the K3 and the S-Meter thread of the K3. Could someone
> explain (to a Liberal Arts Major - not an engineering type)
> what the issues are here and why they are issues with this
> radio? Maybe, I'm lost in all the hullabaloo.
>
> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power
> connector "junk" that cannot be fixed?
>
> Thank you for the education.....
>
> Lee Buller - K0WA
> K3 SN 443
> K2 SN 1056
>
> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short
> supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common
> Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for
> help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
>

Jan Erik Holm

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

Lee Buller wrote:
>
> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power connector
> "junk" that cannot be fixed?
>
Maybe I should explain my point.
S-meter, too coars since it can only show a 6 dB change.
It´s been reported on this reflector that it was impossible
to rectify/change that, i e to get better resolution more
data points has to be produced by the radio.
So bottom line, an S-meter that coarse IMO is junk, sorry
but it´s my opinion.
12V power connector, does not have a positive lock, i e can
come loose if radio is moved. Again IMO this is junk.
This probably could be fixed, i e modify it for another type
connector.

And yes the K3 has a few other issues also but as I did say
before nothing in life is perfect, I still love my K3 and
would not like to be without it.

73 Jim SM2EKM

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Matt Palmer-4

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

You mean the S-meter reads in S units (6db) how unique. Also the damn
powerpole thing has been beat to death over numerous threads on this
reflector. Read those and pray no one gets out their soapbox again.

Matt
KD8DAO
http://blog.MattIsKichigai.com

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Jan Erik Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lee Buller wrote:
>>
>> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power connector
>> "junk" that cannot be fixed?
>>
> Maybe I should explain my point.
> S-meter, too coars since it can only show a 6 dB change.
> It´s been reported on this reflector that it was impossible
> to rectify/change that, i e to get better resolution more
> data points has to be produced by the radio.
> So bottom line, an S-meter that coarse IMO is junk, sorry
> but it´s my opinion.
> 12V power connector, does not have a positive lock, i e can
> come loose if radio is moved. Again IMO this is junk.
> This probably could be fixed, i e modify it for another type
> connector.
>
> And yes the K3 has a few other issues also but as I did say
> before nothing in life is perfect, I still love my K3 and
> would not like to be without it.
>
> 73 Jim SM2EKM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

dj7mgq

RE: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

> a very accurate scale in S-unit (5 dB) steps.

I assume you mean 6dB steps:

Page 156 <http://www.iaru-r1.org/VHF_Handbook_V5_11.pdf>
Page 142 <http://www.iaru-r1.org/HFM%20Handbook%20V6.pdf>

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David Pratt-2

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm

In a recent message, Jan Erik Holm <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>12V power connector, does not have a positive lock, i e can
>come loose if radio is moved. Again IMO this is junk.

Have you assembled the connector correctly, Jim? Both my K3 and my
XV144 Anderson power connectors go in with a definite 'click' and
neither of them have come apart unintentionally even when the equipment
is moved.

Being digital, the S-meter has incremental steps of one S-point which is
accurate enough for most practical purposes. In any case, everyone is
599 or 59 in contests ;-)

73

--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------

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Vic K2VCO

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

Lee Buller wrote:

> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter and the power connector
> "junk" that cannot be fixed?

The s-meter is only useful to give a rough reading of signal strength.
It is good enough for RST reports.

However, the radio includes a built-in 'dBV' (this is in quotes for
those who will say that it should be called something else) function
which can provide an accurate measurement of relative signal strength
when necessary.

Some people hate Powerpole connectors, others love them. I am of the
latter persuasion. They need to be assembled carefully and then in my
opinion they work well and are extremely convenient.

But then, I like PL259/SO239's too.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

Lee,

It seems that some owners are expecting an analog signal from a digital
source or expect their receiver to be a precision measurement device.
The digital steps derived to drive the S-meter correlate to the marks on
the S-meter in whole S units, it does not indicate anything in between.
It is good enough for most displays and radio control programs since
they usually display the S-meter in steps of whole S-units anyway.
Those that I have looked at do not indicate fractions of an S-unit, so I
believe the S-meter resolution is adequate for most purposes.

There is an alternative for those who want better resolution, and that
is the AFV and dBV alternate displays that can be dialed up in the VFOB
area when CONFIG is set for TECH mode. The resolution of AFV is 1 mVp-p
and is the value of the receiver output. dBV is relative to the
receiver output level when the dBV scale was first entered and is in 1
dB increments - that is just about as good as any analog meter commonly
available - yes more precision is available in some meters, but they
cost big bucks.

73,
Don W3FPR

Lee Buller wrote:

Don Brown-4

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by David Pratt-2

Hi

PowerPoles can be locked together with a small 'U" shaped piece of stiff
wire run through the holes between the red and black blocks after plugging
in the connectors. I do this on my solar panel setup to keep the connectors
in place even if the wires get pulled.

Thanks

Don Brown
KD5NDB

K3 S/N 0575

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Pratt" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:08 AM
To: "Jan Erik Holm" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

> In a recent message, Jan Erik Holm <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>12V power connector, does not have a positive lock, i e can
>>come loose if radio is moved. Again IMO this is junk.
>
> Have you assembled the connector correctly, Jim? Both my K3 and my XV144
> Anderson power connectors go in with a definite 'click' and neither of
> them have come apart unintentionally even when the equipment is moved.
>
> Being digital, the S-meter has incremental steps of one S-point which is
> accurate enough for most practical purposes. In any case, everyone is 599
> or 59 in contests ;-)
>
> 73
>
> --
> David G4DMP
> Leeds, England, UK
> ------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

Jim Brown-10

RE: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

Joe has again hit the nail on the head. The K3 is a very high
quality transceiver. It is not test equipment. You want test
equipment, you buy test equipment. I'm an EE and I've been a ham
for 53 years. I find nearly all elements of the K3 user interface
quite satisfactory, including the S-meter. I am, however, looking
for additional control of the 2nd RX, and I expect to see that over
the next few months.

I am also a huge fan of Anderson Power Pole connectors -- beginning
in 2004 when I bought my first K2, I've gradually rewired all my
equipment that runs on low voltage DC to use them. Everything from
laptops, talkies, Ethernet routers, telephones, etc. and all my
radio gear. They are reasonably priced (at least in North America),
easy to wire, and quite reliable.

73,

Jim K9YC

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:39:00 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> Also....why is one person calling the S-Meter

>Because some people do not understand the difference between an
>amateur transceiver and a $10,000 piece laboratory test equipment.
>The K3's S-meter circuit is derived form the IF DSP and provides
>a very accurate scale in S-unit (5 dB) steps. It does not
>provide an analog voltage with infinite resolution.

>> and the power connector "junk" that cannot be fixed?

>The power connector is an Anderson PowerPole and some people
>(unfairly) object to the use PowerPole connectors.

>In "liberal arts" terms, there are always those who expect a
>Ferrari or Maserati for the same price as a Chevrolet Cobalt.

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by dj7mgq

> I assume you mean 6dB steps:

In the case of the K3 it is 5 dB steps. If the S-meter is
calibrated according to the manual S9 = 50 uV and S2 or S3
= 1 uV. For S2 = 1 uV we have 20log(1/50)/7 or 4.85 dB/unit.
For S3 = 1uV we get 20log(1/50)/6 or 5.66 dB/unit.

A very repeatable 5 dB per unit is fine for me considering
that most of the even "high end" other transceivers have
S-units that vary from 2 to 8 dB depending on where one
starts. The K3 is also among the very few that can display
an absolute S-meter (true signal strength) reading as the
preamp and attenuator are used in various combinations.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:53 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Questions from a Liberal Arts Major
>
>
> > a very accurate scale in S-unit (5 dB) steps.
>
> I assume you mean 6dB steps:
>
> Page 156 <http://www.iaru-r1.org/VHF_Handbook_V5_11.pdf>
> Page 142 <http://www.iaru-r1.org/HFM%20Handbook%20V6.pdf>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Jan Erik Holm

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by David Pratt-2

Thanks David, yes I believe so, I do get the "click".
It´s no big issue, I can live with it however IMO
as stated before this is a bad type of connector.

73 Jim SM2EKM
------------------------
David Pratt wrote:

Rich

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Don Brown-4

The factory installed PowerPole connector was misaligned on my K3. After trying to make sure the connectors I made were correct, several times, I discovered that the “flat” (with a small dimple) connectors were to far back on the heavy piece of wire they are soldered to. This prevents them from extending all the way out to the proper position as required by the mating PowerPole connector. Thus when connected the little humps had nor slide over each other and were not fully engaged. I heated up each of these two factory installed connectors and slid them outward slightly – making sure that they are PERFECTLY even with each other. This took several attempts. Once I had gotten perfect alignment with the PowerPole connector installed in the K3 I achieved a good connection. It now takes about 3-5 pounds of force to pull them apart. Since the connector in the K3 is mounted on heavy wire if they are not soldered in the correct position they will not fit in the connector correctly. AND since this wire has a 90 degree bend at the back, it can keep the connector case from going all the way back and preventing proper engagement of the mating connector. The connector on the flexible wire is not a problem as there is give between the two wires and that can allow the connectors to be properly seated in the case for proper alignment and connection with the mating connector.

I believe that if the PowerPole on the K3 was installed on a short length of flexible wire we would not be reading about this problem as it would not exist. Either Elecraft should test EVERY connector or mount the connector on a short length or wire.

Rich,
KE0X

Don Brown-4 wrote

Hi

PowerPoles can be locked together with a small 'U" shaped piece of stiff
wire run through the holes between the red and black blocks after plugging
in the connectors. I do this on my solar panel setup to keep the connectors
in place even if the wires get pulled.

Thanks

Don Brown
KD5NDB

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

Administrator

Hi Rich,

I've forwarded your comments to our test techs to make sure they look
for this on each RF board as they test and align it.

73, Eric WA6HHQ

Rich wrote:

> The factory installed PowerPole connector was misaligned on my K3. After
> trying to make sure the connectors I made were correct, several times, I
> discovered that the “flat” (with a small dimple) connectors were to far back
> on the heavy piece of wire they are soldered to. This prevents them from
> extending all the way out to the proper position as required by the mating
> PowerPole connector. Thus when connected the little humps had nor slide over
> each other and were not fully engaged. I heated up each of these two
> factory installed connectors and slid them outward slightly – making sure
> that they are PERFECTLY even with each other. This took several attempts.
> Once I had gotten perfect alignment with the PowerPole connector installed
> in the K3 I achieved a good connection. It now takes about 3-5 pounds of
> force to pull them apart. Since the connector in the K3 is mounted on heavy
> wire if they are not soldered in the correct position they will not fit in
> the connector correctly. AND since this wire has a 90 degree bend at the
> back, it can keep the connector case from going all the way back and
> preventing proper engagement of the mating connector. The connector on the
> flexible wire is not a problem as there is give between the two wires and
> that can allow the connectors to be properly seated in the case for proper
> alignment and connection with the mating connector.
>
> I believe that if the PowerPole on the K3 was installed on a short length of
> flexible wire we would not be reading about this problem as it would not
> exist. Either Elecraft should test EVERY connector or mount the connector
> on a short length or wire.
>
> Rich,
> KE0X
>
>
>

P.B. Christensen

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Rich

> "I believe that if the PowerPole on the K3 was installed on a short length
> of
flexible wire we would not be reading about this problem as it would not
exist."

That would make a connector change-out very easy should the PowerPole
contacts become damaged..

A while back, I had shifted the K3 cabinet while listening to a QSO and the
PowerPole disconnected from the lateral movement. It's mostly the lateral
tension that creates the propensity for accidental disconnects. If I had
moved the cabinet while transmitting at 100W, I suspect that I would need to
have gone in and replaced the fused/welded pins. Arguably, K3 owners
shouldn't be moving the rig while operating!

I have a love-hate relationship with the PowerPole: I love the convenience
(e.g., Rigrunner DC manifold); but I hate that the connector does not "lock
'n mate" as compared to those power connectors manufactured by MOLEX and
AMP. Locking the PowerPole requires some external means like a tie-wrap, or
the special plastic bridge clip being sold by Anderson.

Ensuring a correct crimp is part of the solution, but not the whole
solution. I have a shop drawer full of professional ratcheting crimpers and
prior to the recent purchase of the West Mountain crimper, I thought I was
doing a good job. But what was occurring with my existing crimper is that
the contact tip was bending slightly out of alignment during the crimp
process. The West Mountain crimper locks the contact tip while crimping,
thereby ensuring the pin remains straight with the barrel after crimping.
Moreover, the West Mountain crimper ensures a completely concentric crimp.
Had I not tried it myself, I would not have believe there could be that much
of a difference between it and my other ratcheting crimpers.

Paul, W9AC

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Ken Alexander-2

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

> The digital steps derived to drive the S-meter correlate to
> the marks on the S-meter in whole S units, it does not indicate anything
> in between. It is good enough for most displays and radio control
> programs since they usually display the S-meter in steps of whole S-units
> anyway. Those that I have looked at do not indicate fractions of an
> S-unit, so I believe the S-meter resolution is adequate for most
> purposes.

Right on, Don.

Lemme see, when was the last time somebody told me my signal was S6.3 on their meter....nope, never! S9+21.8? Never!

8-)

Ken
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David Cutter

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by P.B. Christensen

Unsolder the power pole from the rig and solder the power cable directly to
the pcb, job done, no more problems.

David
G3UNA

> I have a love-hate relationship with the PowerPole: I love the convenience
> (e.g., Rigrunner DC manifold); but I hate that the connector does not
> "lock 'n mate" as compared to those power connectors manufactured by MOLEX
> and AMP. Locking the PowerPole requires some external means like a
> tie-wrap, or the special plastic bridge clip being sold by Anderson.
> >
> Paul, W9AC
>
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Gary D Krause

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2

What does being a Liberal Arts Major have to do with ham radio? Are you
implying that because you are a Liberal Arts Major, you are somehow less able
to understand or comprehend than anyone else? There are many of us with
degrees in the arts that are also hams. It's a hobby. You have already
proven yourself by acquiring a license. Don't sell yourself short. Sorry if
I misinterpreted this but, that's the impression I got after reading the
subject line.

Gary

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kk5na

Re: Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

In reply to this post by P.B. Christensen

I have several Crimper tools but do not really trust crimped power
connectors so...I solder all my PowerPoles connectors. It is easy to
do...they work everytime and never a crimp problem.

Joe KK5NA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Christensen" <[hidden email]>
To: "Rich" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions from a Liberal Arts Major

>> "I believe that if the PowerPole on the K3 was installed on a short
>> length of
> flexible wire we would not be reading about this problem as it would not
> exist."
>
> That would make a connector change-out very easy should the PowerPole
> contacts become damaged..
>
> A while back, I had shifted the K3 cabinet while listening to a QSO and
> the PowerPole disconnected from the lateral movement. It's mostly the
> lateral tension that creates the propensity for accidental disconnects.
> If I had moved the cabinet while transmitting at 100W, I suspect that I
> would need to have gone in and replaced the fused/welded pins. Arguably,
> K3 owners shouldn't be moving the rig while operating!
>
> I have a love-hate relationship with the PowerPole: I love the convenience
> (e.g., Rigrunner DC manifold); but I hate that the connector does not
> "lock 'n mate" as compared to those power connectors manufactured by MOLEX
> and AMP. Locking the PowerPole requires some external means like a
> tie-wrap, or the special plastic bridge clip being sold by Anderson.
>
> Ensuring a correct crimp is part of the solution, but not the whole
> solution. I have a shop drawer full of professional ratcheting crimpers
> and prior to the recent purchase of the West Mountain crimper, I thought I
> was doing a good job. But what was occurring with my existing crimper is
> that the contact tip was bending slightly out of alignment during the
> crimp process. The West Mountain crimper locks the contact tip while
> crimping, thereby ensuring the pin remains straight with the barrel after
> crimping. Moreover, the West Mountain crimper ensures a completely
> concentric crimp. Had I not tried it myself, I would not have believe
> there could be that much of a difference between it and my other
> ratcheting crimpers.
>
> Paul, W9AC
>
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