R: Re: K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help
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Lucien, many thanks for your help. I am ashtonished. It is incredible that a great rig as the K3S doesnt have the simpler debouncing circuit on the key input, input obviously available for all mechanical kind of key, so with potential bounces. This afternoon I have written to elecraft support informing them about this problem.73 Ian IK4EWX
----Messaggio originale---- Da: [hidden email] Data: 19-giu-2016 18.37 A: <[hidden email]> Ogg: Re: [Elecraft] K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help Yes, both my K3 and a K3s do this when I key them with my bugs or with my straight key. Even my K2's will behave strangely, though not quite as bad as the K3 and s. It's not a problem with the rig; it's just a contact bounce issue, so you'll just need a debouncing circuit. Either an external keyer (most of them have debouncing circuitry in them) or you can home-brew one. There are a couple good circuits in the list archives. A capacitor across the bug terminals will help, say a .1 uf, but beware that it'll key the rig momentarily when you first plug it in as the cap charges. 73, LS W5QD -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-losing-swr-wattmeters-indications-on-tx-please-help-tp7618984p7618995.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: R: Re: K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help
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I imagine it's because of the QRQ support that it doesn't have dedicated debouncing circuitry for straight keys, but I'm not sure about that. The K2 does have some small caps across the key input, but it too still gives me slight problems when I key it with my straight key. Though it's not as bad as with the K3(s)..
I'm just going to use an external keyer on mine, since I have other uses for a dedicated keyer in general. Most Curtis based keyers have debouncing built-in for use with straight keys and bugs. 73 LS W5QD |
Re: R: Re: K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help
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I have heard numbers like 90 and 100 wpm for operative QRQ for the K3, but
don't have time to go research where I heard that. I *know* it runs sweet at 60 and 70 WPM. BTDT. But I will caution that certain problems with key contact surfaces will produce a signal impossible to debounce. These problems were *very* common with older bugs and straight keys. Having a single debouncing strategy for 90 wpm QRQ, and for degraded contact surfaces extremely common with bugs and old straight keys is probably an oxymoron. There is a reason that Vibroplex offers a resurfacing service for contacts on their products. Pitting and carbonizing from keying 250 volts at 150 milliamps, scratching, wearing, sandpapering (yes people did that), flattening, filing (yes people did that), yada, yada, yada. These were all huge issues in the day before common affordable electronic keyers, standalone and built-in, and polished single chip solutions like Win-Key. If I was a modern manufacturer and had a choice between servicing 90 wpm QRQ and debouncing bugs and straight keys with questionable contact surfaces, I would choose QRQ hands down. Not close. Easy smackdown choice for QRQ. Those of us who want to use the old stuff need to make allowances. Getting rid of key clicks in my Johnson Viking Ranger I is a problem I have never really conquered. And I can't bring myself to spend the bux to get the contacts on my Vibroplex bug resurfaced. That's *my* issue, not Elecraft's. Programming resources and subsequent testing for transceiver firmware is one of the most expensive components of any modern transceiver. Manufacturers have to make choices that will return a profit or they will go out of business. 73, Guy K2AV On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote: > I imagine it's because of the QRQ support that it doesn't have dedicated > debouncing circuitry for straight keys, but I'm not sure about that. The K2 > does have some small caps across the key input, but it too still gives me > slight problems when I key it with my straight key. Though it's not as bad > as with the K3(s).. > > I'm just going to use an external keyer on mine, since I have other uses > for > a dedicated keyer in general. Most Curtis based keyers have debouncing > built-in for use with straight keys and bugs. > > 73 > LS > W5QD > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/R-Re-K3S-losing-swr-wattmeters-indications-on-tx-please-help-tp7619048p7619062.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by IK4EWX
Odd ... I operate almost exclusively CW at 20 - 40 WPM with both a K3
(#0056) and a K2/100 (#5665) and have never experienced the problem you describe. FWIW, the K3 has been heavily used in numerous contests by KE7X. 73 K0PP On Jun 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote: Lucien, many thanks for your help. I am ashtonished. It is incredible that a great rig as the K3S doesnt have the simpler debouncing circuit on the key input, input obviously available for all mechanical kind of key, so with potential bounces. This afternoon I have written to elecraft support informing them about this problem.73 Ian IK4EWX ----Messaggio originale---- Da: [hidden email] Data: 19-giu-2016 18.37 A: <[hidden email]> Ogg: Re: [Elecraft] K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help Yes, both my K3 and a K3s do this when I key them with my bugs or with my straight key. Even my K2's will behave strangely, though not quite as bad as the K3 and s. It's not a problem with the rig; it's just a contact bounce issue, so you'll just need a debouncing circuit. Either an external keyer (most of them have debouncing circuitry in them) or you can home-brew one. There are a couple good circuits in the list archives. A capacitor across the bug terminals will help, say a .1 uf, but beware that it'll key the rig momentarily when you first plug it in as the cap charges. 73, LS W5QD -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-losing-swr-wattmeters-indications-on-tx-please-help-tp7618984p7618995.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
You are totally wrong dear friend. I have the problem closing with a single dash contact for two three second making a rapid tune and it happen with two first class bugs, a new Begali Intrepid and a Vibroplex Presentation with shining bright contacts and no audible bounces. If I work on K3S with these bugs generating normal dot and dash in a qso at 15-30wpm I havent the problem.
So the problem is in the rig key input, or associated circuit and not in the key. Keys that worked very well on an ft1000mp or TenTec Corsair II or on an old good Cubic Astro 102BXA. So, again, the problem is in the K3S transceiver input. Ian IK4EWX Invio eseguito dallo smartphone BlackBerry 10. Messaggio originale Da: Guy Olinger K2AV Inviato: lunedì 20 giugno 2016 21:17 A: lstavenhagen Cc: Elecraft Reflector Oggetto: Re: [Elecraft] R: Re: K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help I have heard numbers like 90 and 100 wpm for operative QRQ for the K3, but don't have time to go research where I heard that. I *know* it runs sweet at 60 and 70 WPM. BTDT. But I will caution that certain problems with key contact surfaces will produce a signal impossible to debounce. These problems were *very* common with older bugs and straight keys. Having a single debouncing strategy for 90 wpm QRQ, and for degraded contact surfaces extremely common with bugs and old straight keys is probably an oxymoron. There is a reason that Vibroplex offers a resurfacing service for contacts on their products. Pitting and carbonizing from keying 250 volts at 150 milliamps, scratching, wearing, sandpapering (yes people did that), flattening, filing (yes people did that), yada, yada, yada. These were all huge issues in the day before common affordable electronic keyers, standalone and built-in, and polished single chip solutions like Win-Key. If I was a modern manufacturer and had a choice between servicing 90 wpm QRQ and debouncing bugs and straight keys with questionable contact surfaces, I would choose QRQ hands down. Not close. Easy smackdown choice for QRQ. Those of us who want to use the old stuff need to make allowances. Getting rid of key clicks in my Johnson Viking Ranger I is a problem I have never really conquered. And I can't bring myself to spend the bux to get the contacts on my Vibroplex bug resurfaced. That's *my* issue, not Elecraft's. Programming resources and subsequent testing for transceiver firmware is one of the most expensive components of any modern transceiver. Manufacturers have to make choices that will return a profit or they will go out of business. 73, Guy K2AV On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote: > I imagine it's because of the QRQ support that it doesn't have dedicated > debouncing circuitry for straight keys, but I'm not sure about that. The K2 > does have some small caps across the key input, but it too still gives me > slight problems when I key it with my straight key. Though it's not as bad > as with the K3(s).. > > I'm just going to use an external keyer on mine, since I have other uses > for > a dedicated keyer in general. Most Curtis based keyers have debouncing > built-in for use with straight keys and bugs. > > 73 > LS > W5QD > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/R-Re-K3S-losing-swr-wattmeters-indications-on-tx-please-help-tp7619048p7619062.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: R: Re: K3S losing swr-wattmeters indications on tx - please help
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In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
Yeah, that's kind of how I've always thought of it, a "user is responsible for debouncing" type of thing.
Especially the Dah paddle and my Kent straight key, when bouncing, may not be indistinguishable from a straight key going 100wpm as far as the rig is concerned LOL. So I never really thought of it as a problem with the rig itself, since reacting to contact bounce is working as designed! But this problem is as old as the hills and hasn't ever been a rig problem to my knowledge. Even in the ancient days as a child when I was driving my DX-60B with a straight key it could give a nasty buzzy Dah sometimes if I wasn't really firm on the key..... I've been too lazy lately and have just been living with it with my Kent, but I'm soon going to get a keyer for other purposes and I'll just default to using that from then on. 73, LS W5QD |
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