RE: iambic modes
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Don wrote:
>The fact that mode B can send a dit just by holding the dah paddle a bit >longer has always boggled my mind - if I want a dit, I feel I should tap the >dit paddle!!! Mode B can drive me nuts. Tom wrote: >> When I let go of the paddle I want the dit or dah that I am hearing to be >> the last thing sent...Mode A. The only thing that really matters is what you *learned* on. There's no speed advantage or reduction in paddle manipulation advantage in one mode or the other. Mode B timing IS much more critical than mode A because if you hold the dit paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic dah-dit string, you'll get an unwanted dah, and if you hold the dah paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic dit-dah string, you'll get an unwanted dit. With mode A, you only get a dit or dah if you've pushed the dit or dah paddle for it. To me, that just seems the logical way for a keyer to work. Given that there is no discernable advantage to mode B, why anyone would want a keyer to send a character element for which no paddle was depressed has always baffled me. Historically, mode B arose from a logic flaw in an early electronic keyer that eventually got advertised as a "feature." But...If one is just learning iambic keying, I would recommend learning mode B rather than mode A. Some ham rig manufacturers don't give you the option of choosing the logical system, and provide mode B only (like Yaesu and Small Wonder Labs). My SWL DSW units gave me fits because they had only mode B keying (until Jackson Harbor produced a full-featured keyer with mode A option as a replacement for the stock PIC in the DSW). As much as I love my K1, I'd never buy one if Elecraft had not supplied a mode A keyer option. Yes, it's *that* important! Mike / KK5F _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Mike,
I fully agree with you - mode B still baffles me and causes the infrequent error. At least with mode A when I press the paddle I'll know what I'll get. The K-2 has mode A, which is a lifesaver in the pileup. When chasing DX you don't need the extra character as that is the time they will hear you. I'm curious about the Jackson Harbor aftermarket pic, I think it also increases vfo resolution to 10 Hz doesn't it? Please drop me a note off list as I might wish to upgrade my DSW-II. Regards, Joe N9JR Mike Morrow <[hidden email]> wrote: Mode B timing IS much more critical than mode A because if you hold the dit paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic dah-dit string, you'll get an unwanted dah, and if you hold the dah paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic dit-dah string, you'll get an unwanted dit. With mode A, you only get a dit or dah if you've pushed the dit or dah paddle for it. To me, that just seems the logical way for a keyer to work. Given that there is no discernable advantage to mode B, why anyone would want a keyer to send a character element for which no paddle was depressed has always baffled me. Historically, mode B arose from a logic flaw in an early electronic keyer that eventually got advertised as a "feature." But...If one is just learning iambic keying, I would recommend learning mode B rather than mode A. Some ham rig manufacturers don't give you the option of choosing the logical system, and provide mode B only (like Yaesu and Small Wonder Labs). My SWL DSW units gave me fits because they had only mode B keying (until Jackson Harbor produced a full-featured keyer with mode A option as a replacement for the stock PIC in the DSW). _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3
Mike and all,
I have given up on the internal rig keyers already. I have finally assembled my K1EL K12 keyer that I hope will solve my problems - and it is small enough that I can carry it with me to key any transceiver no matter what the transceiver manufacturer thinks is the 'best'. Certainly solves MY problem ... others can go on discussing the pros and cons, but I will be able to become acoustomed to my keyer characteristics and will not have to work around the subtle timing differences of the various internal keyers. YMMV. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > > Don wrote: > > >The fact that mode B can send a dit just by holding the dah paddle a bit > >longer has always boggled my mind - if I want a dit, I feel I > should tap the > >dit paddle!!! Mode B can drive me nuts. > > Tom wrote: > > >> When I let go of the paddle I want the dit or dah that I am > hearing to be > >> the last thing sent...Mode A. > > The only thing that really matters is what you *learned* on. > There's no speed advantage or reduction in paddle manipulation > advantage in one mode or the other. > > Mode B timing IS much more critical than mode A because if you > hold the dit paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic > dah-dit string, you'll get an unwanted dah, and if you hold the > dah paddle just a tiny little bit too long in an iambic dit-dah > string, you'll get an unwanted dit. > > With mode A, you only get a dit or dah if you've pushed the dit > or dah paddle for it. To me, that just seems the logical way for > a keyer to work. Given that there is no discernable advantage to > mode B, why anyone would want a keyer to send a character element > for which no paddle was depressed has always baffled me. > Historically, mode B arose from a logic flaw in an early > electronic keyer that eventually got advertised as a "feature." > > But...If one is just learning iambic keying, I would recommend > learning mode B rather than mode A. Some ham rig manufacturers > don't give you the option of choosing the logical system, and > provide mode B only (like Yaesu and Small Wonder Labs). My SWL > DSW units gave me fits because they had only mode B keying (until > Jackson Harbor produced a full-featured keyer with mode A option > as a replacement for the stock PIC in the DSW). > > As much as I love my K1, I'd never buy one if Elecraft had not > supplied a mode A keyer option. Yes, it's *that* important! > > Mike / KK5F > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Here's an informative link explaining Mode A and Mode B for anyone still
scratching their head in wonderment... http://home.att.net/%7Ejacksonharbor/modeab.pdf Or http://tinyurl.com/bqr2p It's been claimed in various histories that Mode B was actually a mistake made in an early keyer, but it was a functional mistake that ops learned to use. Those operators objected to the fact that the last code element wasn't automatically sent when expected, so manufacturers like the famous Curtis who developed the first keyer application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) keyer "chip", included both "modes" in their designs. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
Don and all,
I kind of do the same thing. I have an Idiom Press K3 keyer that I use for both my HF rigs. I modified the jacks on the back of the keyer to accept cables from both rigs (+ and - keying jacks) and added a small toggle switch on the front of the keyer to allow selection of either rig. I find I just didn't like the built in keyers from either rig, K2 or FT-1000MP. They're good but just different enough that I wasn't comfortable. After all the emails today concerning mode A vs B I tried them both using the keyer built into the K2. Forget A. What a mess I was making. B was much better but still a little different than the feel I get from the K3 keyer. I learned on B and that's that. Anyhow, I forget who started this topic, but just pick one mode, practice a lot and have fun. 73, Roger, W1EM -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:44 PM To: Elecraft reflector; Mike Morrow Subject: RE: [Elecraft] iambic modes Mike and all, I have given up on the internal rig keyers already. I have finally assembled my K1EL K12 keyer that I hope will solve my problems - and it is small enough that I can carry it with me to key any transceiver no matter what the transceiver manufacturer thinks is the 'best'. Certainly solves MY problem ... others can go on discussing the pros and cons, but I will be able to become acoustomed to my keyer characteristics and will not have to work around the subtle timing differences of the various internal keyers. YMMV. 73, Don W3FPR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 20:58, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Here's an informative link explaining Mode A and Mode B for anyone still > scratching their head in wonderment... > > http://home.att.net/%7Ejacksonharbor/modeab.pdf I have no idea, before I read about A and B, what everyone is talking about. I made an iambic keyer from G3RVM's 'ultimate' keyer (Mk2) published in the RSGB's Radio Communication, February 1980. It has auto charcter spacing, the addition in that design to the original in May 1977. I would love to reverse engineer the gates and flipflops to write such a keyer for a modern microcontroller. I am not up to doing that without a serious learning curve. I have written one, with such spacing, but it doesn't feel quite the same. I have given up on iambic completely now. I can't stand inaccurate sending with extra dits and dahs and don't trust myself. I programmed a PIC 16F628 to connect to a standard AT keyboard, internal to the keyboard, and produce morse as the keys are pressed, in otherwords, a keyboard keyer. It has one component and an external regulated power supply, a wallwart from RadioShack. Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962 -- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Oh NO - there is yet a 3rd one - the 'ultimatic'!!! (and maybe there is a
4th and 5th as well). As I said, I will just get used to my own keyer and be done with it. What is 'better' is a matter of individual tastes, prior experience, and just plain old 'my method is best' - Decide what you are most comfortable with and make your own CW the best that you can - the paddle technique is not important, but the result (good CW out) is what is to be the proper goal. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > I have no idea, before I read about A and B, what > everyone is talking about. I made an iambic keyer > from G3RVM's 'ultimate' keyer (Mk2) published in > the RSGB's Radio Communication, February 1980. > It has auto charcter spacing, the addition in > that design to the original in May 1977. > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
For those who struggle with iambic keying, I thought this analysis written
by Marshall Emm (N1FN) particularly enlightening: > -----Original Message----- > Subject: [QRP-L] Twin or single paddle? > >... > Recently it dawned on me just how little I'm gaining from the iambic >keying as I read this great article: > http://www.morsex.com/pubs/iambicmyth.pdf > 73, Steve aa8af > -----Original Message----- > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] iambic modes > > Here's an informative link explaining Mode A and Mode B for > anyone still scratching their head in wonderment... > > http://home.att.net/%7Ejacksonharbor/modeab.pdf > > Or > > http://tinyurl.com/bqr2p > > It's been claimed in various histories that Mode B was > actually a mistake made in an early keyer, but it was a > functional mistake that ops learned to use. Those operators > objected to the fact that the last code element wasn't > automatically sent when expected, so manufacturers like the > famous Curtis who developed the first keyer > application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) keyer "chip", > included both "modes" in their designs. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 23:07, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Oh NO - there is yet a 3rd one - the 'ultimatic'!!! (and maybe there is a > 4th and 5th as well). Don, Are you sure the ultimatic follows the Mk 2 in 1980? I have the 1980 magazine but joined the RSGB in 1979, so don't have the May 1977 issue. Perhaps the ultimatic is that one. > As I said, I will just get used to my own keyer and be done with it. What > is 'better' is a matter of individual tastes, prior experience, and just > plain old 'my method is best' - Decide what you are most comfortable with > and make your own CW the best that you can - the paddle technique is not > important, but the result (good CW out) is what is to be the proper goal. I use a straight key most of the time and have no need of my keyboard keyer yet because my receiving speed has slipped to about 20 wpm. I built G3RVM's keyer in the heady days of September 1979, six months after just passing the 12 wpm test, because I couldn't send at 30+ wpm with a straight key. My receiving speed is increasing with the regular listening I'm doing with the K2. I'm really anticipating the context switch to hearing whole words again: that happened around 25 wpm for me. Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962 -- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve-292
On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:37 PM, Steve wrote: > For those who struggle with iambic keying, I thought this analysis > written > by Marshall Emm (N1FN) particularly enlightening: Ah; I suspect this may be the same guy who wrote the original article on why a bumble bee can't fly. Seriously, for those of you who are wondering all about this iambic stuff, the answer is simple. Stop listening to all this advice (and I guess you can include this message as well) and just play around with it for yourself. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's fine too. I suspect you'll find, however, that, if you like it, you'll like it a lot, regardless of what anyone else says. best wishes, dave belsley, w1euy _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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David A. Belsley wrote:
> > On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:37 PM, Steve wrote: > >> For those who struggle with iambic keying, I thought this analysis >> written >> by Marshall Emm (N1FN) particularly enlightening: > > > Ah; I suspect this may be the same guy who wrote the original article > on why a bumble bee can't fly. > Actually, Marshall Emm is one of the most knowledgeable people on Morse Code and Morse Code generating equipment that many of us know. To paraphrase the old commercial, "When Marshall talks .... I listen." To listen to Marshall work a QRP pile-up is a thing of beauty. The man knows his stuff. 73 de Larry W2LJ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by David A. Belsley
Dave W1EUY wrote:
Stop listening to all this advice (and I guess you can include this message as well) and just play around with it for yourself. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's fine too. I suspect you'll find, however, that, if you like it, you'll like it a lot, regardless of what anyone else says. ------------------- Great Dave! And the reader can do something else with your excellent advice: enter any subject relating to Ham radio on the subject line. It's a perfect way to approach our hobby! Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve-292
Remember folks the old Heathkit "Cantenna" was known for the amazing
number of QSOs that could be carried out on it considering it's not supposed to enable any at all. 73 de Alex nS6y _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In the old days in the UK, there use to be a non-radiating "Artificial
Aerial" Licence. An Artificial Aerial consisted of R L & C which represented the impedance characteristics of an actual antenna. It is surprising how many QSOs were had using those devices. 73 de David G4DMP In message <[hidden email]>, Alexandra Carter <[hidden email]> writes >Remember folks the old Heathkit "Cantenna" was known for the amazing >number of QSOs that could be carried out on it considering it's not >supposed to enable any at all. 73 de Alex nS6y _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Making QSOs on a dummy load
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In reply to this post by Alexandra Carter
I believe the Mighty Fine Junk company sells a "cantenna" now.
Alexandra Carter wrote: > Remember folks the old Heathkit "Cantenna" was known for the amazing > number of QSOs that could be carried out on it considering it's not > supposed to enable any at all. 73 de Alex nS6y > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3
I have suggested it before and feel that all electronic keys should
have an 'Iambic OFF' mode in addition to the A and B modes. I have for many years used a single paddle homebrew keyer but now have a twin paddle G4ZPY keyer. Although I have the K2 set to mode B I never ever conciously use the iambic funtions. Squeezing and the effects the iambic logic does are counterproductive to my style of keying and I wish I could just simply turn them off. And having such an option would get rid of much of the mis-sent CW one hears so much on the bands these days. 73 Dave G3YMC http://www.davesergeant.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Larry Makoski W2LJ
On Jan 26, 2006, at 12:23 AM, Larry Makoski W2LJ wrote: > David A. Belsley wrote: > >> >> On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:37 PM, Steve wrote: >> >>> For those who struggle with iambic keying, I thought this >>> analysis written >>> by Marshall Emm (N1FN) particularly enlightening: >> >> >> Ah; I suspect this may be the same guy who wrote the original >> article on why a bumble bee can't fly. >> > > Actually, Marshall Emm is one of the most knowledgeable people on > Morse Code and Morse Code generating equipment that many of us > know. To paraphrase the old commercial, "When Marshall talks .... > I listen. One may listen to an expert to find a place to begin. One listens to oneself to determine where to go from there. best wishes, dave belsley, w1euy _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Interesting discussion on iambic A and B and differences. Since I have
learnt keying on the K2, I checked my menu setting and found that I have been using iambic A. I then switched to B and tried it without noticing much difference. I wonder why, but can it have something to do with the speed? Does the differences really only make a difference at higher speeds - I am in the 15-18 wpm range? 73 Sverre LA3ZA http://www.qslnet.de/la3za/ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Sverre Holm wrote:
> Interesting discussion on iambic A and B and differences. Since I have > learnt keying on the K2, I checked my menu setting and found that I have > been using iambic A. I then switched to B and tried it without noticing much > difference. > > I wonder why, but can it have something to do with the speed? Does the > differences really only make a difference at higher speeds - I am in the > 15-18 wpm range? If you're really using squeeze keying, it will make a big difference at any speed. If you make a C, for example, by just squeezing both paddles, that's squeeze keying. But if you are used to sending 'single lever style' (even though you have a double-lever paddle) and you make a C by moving your hand back and forth, then you probably won't notice the difference. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Sverre Holm-2
What I found confusing is the lack of Official designation of what
constitutes Iambic A or B or in other rigs Iambic 1 or 2. There should be some standardization. With some manufacturers Iambic A is Iambic 2 with another manufacturer and visa versa. Eliminate Iambic 1 or 2 and desiginate it as Iambic A or B and A is the more critical of the two and not very forgiving! End the confusion. 73 john-n3drk _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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