Radials for Verticals
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Thanks for all the advice guys. The situation requires that the radials
be placed at least slightly below the surface. I'm always faced with the fact that my land is surrounded by open range which means that hundreds of head of cattle roam freely. If my new fence charger fails then the cows will break the fence to get to the lush grass and hay storage reserved for my horses. So, in order for the radials to not get tangled in the legs of my 1200lb kids as well as the elk, moose and deer that constantly move through my land, elevated radials would need to something like 20' in the air (moose are really big). Getting them underground enough so a horse with steel horseshoes won't inadvertently dig one up while engaging in typical horse play ("horsing around" is a phrase with real meaning around here). My soil is about 10-14" of old forest loam (what we call here "duff") on top of a rocky layer followed by a substantial layer of clay. An old chainsaw chain on a small saw will cut a groove through it like the proverbial knife through butter. That should make getting it down about 6" a simple task. Soil conductivity changes dramatically depending on the season. Moisture is held in the soil for many days after a rainstorm. But by the dry season in August, its dry as dust. Winter here starts in October and lasts to April during which the ground is frozen solid to several feet. So I guess my biggest concern is that the wire will corrode rapidly as K9HZ has suggested in a direct email. I have numerous lengths of old aluminum lying on the ground at my antenna site. There does not appear to be the slightest bit of visible corrosion. But perhaps being literally under ground as opposed to lying on the ground makes a big difference. So thanks for the reading links and suggestions. I'll have to give this some serious time to study before deciding what to do. I might turn it into a very large loop antenna at about 40 to 50'. Having been attached to plastic insulators on 5' fence posts for the last 10 years, it shows absolutely no corrosion. So I know it can stand up to the weather just fine. 73 and much thanks for the responses. Doug -- K0DXV (Western slope of the Rockies at 8200+ feet) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Why not use a vertical dipole? Gap sells them for single bands, or get
a multi-band Gap. The Gap Challenger I have works really well on 40 and 20. I would think a single band vertical dipole would do wonders, and no radials... -- Thanks and 73's, For equipment, and software setups and reviews see: www.nk7z.net for MixW support see; http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info for Dopplergram information see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info for MM-SSTV see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info On Mon, 2014-06-30 at 10:37 -0600, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: > Thanks for all the advice guys. The situation requires that the radials > be placed at least slightly below the surface. I'm always faced with > the fact that my land is surrounded by open range which means that > hundreds of head of cattle roam freely. If my new fence charger fails > then the cows will break the fence to get to the lush grass and hay > storage reserved for my horses. So, in order for the radials to not get > tangled in the legs of my 1200lb kids as well as the elk, moose and deer > that constantly move through my land, elevated radials would need to > something like 20' in the air (moose are really big). Getting them > underground enough so a horse with steel horseshoes won't inadvertently > dig one up while engaging in typical horse play ("horsing around" is a > phrase with real meaning around here). > > My soil is about 10-14" of old forest loam (what we call here "duff") on > top of a rocky layer followed by a substantial layer of clay. An old > chainsaw chain on a small saw will cut a groove through it like the > proverbial knife through butter. That should make getting it down about > 6" a simple task. Soil conductivity changes dramatically depending on > the season. Moisture is held in the soil for many days after a > rainstorm. But by the dry season in August, its dry as dust. Winter > here starts in October and lasts to April during which the ground is > frozen solid to several feet. > > So I guess my biggest concern is that the wire will corrode rapidly as > K9HZ has suggested in a direct email. I have numerous lengths of old > aluminum lying on the ground at my antenna site. There does not appear > to be the slightest bit of visible corrosion. But perhaps being > literally under ground as opposed to lying on the ground makes a big > difference. > > So thanks for the reading links and suggestions. I'll have to give this > some serious time to study before deciding what to do. I might turn it > into a very large loop antenna at about 40 to 50'. Having been attached > to plastic insulators on 5' fence posts for the last 10 years, it shows > absolutely no corrosion. So I know it can stand up to the weather just > fine. > > 73 and much thanks for the responses. > > Doug -- K0DXV (Western slope of the Rockies at 8200+ feet) > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
On 6/30/2014 9:37 AM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> Getting them > underground enough so a horse with steel horseshoes won't inadvertently > dig one up while engaging in typical horse play ("horsing around" is a > phrase with real meaning around here). We refer to that as a "fruitcake attack." Never know what provokes it but something gets into their heads. I've come to the conclusion that there's quite a bit of extra room in their heads. :-)) > So I guess my biggest concern is that the wire will corrode rapidly as > K9HZ has suggested in a direct email. I have numerous lengths of old > aluminum lying on the ground at my antenna site. There does not appear > to be the slightest bit of visible corrosion. But perhaps being > literally under ground as opposed to lying on the ground makes a big > difference. I think that will depend on the pH of your soil. I had some buried #12 Al wire that traversed a flower bed with a couple of Camellias which like acidic soil. The wire corroded badly in the bed from the fertilizer but the rest was as good as when I buried it when I finally pulled it up. >I might turn it > into a very large loop antenna at about 40 to 50'. My guess is that you'll be happier with the loop than a non-resonant vertical. Loops are usually quieter than verticals too, although that may not be a problem for you. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The soil property that relates to electrical conductivity is cation exchange capacity or CEC. A web app that can help you estimate conductivity is Web Soil Survey located at http://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/App/HomePage.htm
After finding your location, navigate to chemical properties and look for conductivity. Bill AF4B On Monday, June 30, 2014 11:52 AM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: On 6/30/2014 9:37 AM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: > Getting them > underground enough so a horse with steel horseshoes won't inadvertently > dig one up while engaging in typical horse play ("horsing around" is a > phrase with real meaning around here). We refer to that as a "fruitcake attack." Never know what provokes it but something gets into their heads. I've come to the conclusion that there's quite a bit of extra room in their heads. :-)) > So I guess my biggest concern is that the wire will corrode rapidly as > K9HZ has suggested in a direct email. I have numerous lengths of old > aluminum lying on the ground at my antenna site. There does not appear > to be the slightest bit of visible corrosion. But perhaps being > literally under ground as opposed to lying on the ground makes a big > difference. I think that will depend on the pH of your soil. I had some buried #12 Al wire that traversed a flower bed with a couple of Camellias which like acidic soil. The wire corroded badly in the bed from the fertilizer but the rest was as good as when I buried it when I finally pulled it up. >I might turn it > into a very large loop antenna at about 40 to 50'. My guess is that you'll be happier with the loop than a non-resonant vertical. Loops are usually quieter than verticals too, although that may not be a problem for you. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/ Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Radials for Verticals
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In reply to this post by NK7Z
Well, the point was having all this aluminum wire that I didn't want to
throw away. A vertical dipole is very much on the agenda for things to try this Summer. In this case, I am experimenting: "how well does a 38' vertical fed with a remote tuner work with 30 to 40 radials buried 3 inches beneath the top soil?" The radiator is already put together from scrapes of mill tubing - not exactly a work of art - but effective none the less. I have a Hy-Gain AV-620 mounted at a high point in the meadow elevated to about 6'. I wouldn't consider it a remarkable performer. But it has fine SWR bandwidth on all bands 20 through 6 and is very capable of making plenty of Qs. I did have a GAP Titan when I lived in suburban Charlotte, NC many years ago, hidden in the trees and painted flat black. It was completely invisible even to my next door neighbors. I would define it as a "versatile" antenna giving reasonable, usable performance on 80 through 10. If you have a little copse of trees any of these no-radial wonders can get you on the air. Flat black paint does an amazing job of making them disappear - especially in pine trees. I guess its possible the aluminum wire may not last long in the ground. Another aspect of the experiment. 73, Doug -- K0DXV On 6/30/2014 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote: > Why not use a vertical dipole? Gap sells them for single bands, or get > a multi-band Gap. The Gap Challenger I have works really well on 40 and > 20. I would think a single band vertical dipole would do wonders, and > no radials... ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Radials for Verticals
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Hi Fred,
Horses, especially my mare (16.2), have huge heads and tiny brains. I am always confounded by what she chooses to define as scary. It is the gelding, however, that appears to be in charge of play time. They are often a riot to watch when they seem to get a "grass high" on the sweet, rich meadow grass. I have so much wire that a set of radials AND a large loop are very possible. It's just a matter of what time I feel like spending on them. Just finding out how aluminum works as radiator in a wire antenna will be interesting. I don't have any idea what the pH is like in the loamy, old forest floor of the meadow. Never been touched by fertilizer of any kind. So we'll have to see whether the aluminum turns to powder or not. 73, Doug -- K0DXV On 6/30/2014 10:52 AM, Fred Jensen wrote: > On 6/30/2014 9:37 AM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: > >> Getting them >> underground enough so a horse with steel horseshoes won't inadvertently >> dig one up while engaging in typical horse play ("horsing around" is a >> phrase with real meaning around here). > > We refer to that as a "fruitcake attack." Never know what provokes it > but something gets into their heads. I've come to the conclusion that > there's quite a bit of extra room in their heads. :-)) > >> So I guess my biggest concern is that the wire will corrode rapidly as >> K9HZ has suggested in a direct email. I have numerous lengths of old >> aluminum lying on the ground at my antenna site. There does not appear >> to be the slightest bit of visible corrosion. But perhaps being >> literally under ground as opposed to lying on the ground makes a big >> difference. > > I think that will depend on the pH of your soil. I had some buried > #12 Al wire that traversed a flower bed with a couple of Camellias > which like acidic soil. The wire corroded badly in the bed from the > fertilizer but the rest was as good as when I buried it when I finally > pulled it up. > >> I might turn it >> into a very large loop antenna at about 40 to 50'. > > My guess is that you'll be happier with the loop than a non-resonant > vertical. Loops are usually quieter than verticals too, although that > may not be a problem for you. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > - Northern California Contest Club > - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 > - www.cqp.org > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
On 6/30/2014 8:49 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> A vertical dipole is very much on the agenda for things to try this > Summer. As others have noted, N6LF's website is a goldmine for understanding radials, the performance of verticals, and other antenna issues. The ON4UN book is also worthwhile. You might also want to study some of the antenna planning presentations on my website. k9yc.com/publish.htm In addition to the obvious ones on vertical antenna height and a comparison of vertical and horizontal antennas at various heights, and with various ground quality, there's also one about getting on 160M from a relatively small lot, which is mostly about radial and counterpoise systems. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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