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Bill Frantz

Radio Displays

I have installed a couple of radios in my cars (a Yaesu FTM-10
and an Icom 706). Both radio displays black out when I wear
polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
fuel station pumps black out.) It would be a good idea for
designers to consider sunglasses when designing radios for
mobile or portable use. I think the E-Ink technology
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eink> might be a good match for
radio displays.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 5/9/12 at 7:04, [hidden email] (VE3GNO Daniel) wrote:

>I want to ring the bell to ham comunity abt new fancy radios with LED/OLED displays.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | "The only thing we have to | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | fear is fear itself." - FDR | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933 | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Re: Radio Displays

I think a more practical solution is to ditch the polarized glasses. Since the LCDs work by polarizing light, the designers are stuck. I found that I either had to ditch the polarized lenses when flying or do without my GPS and other LCD readouts.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2012 12:05 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Radio Displays

I have installed a couple of radios in my cars (a Yaesu FTM-10
and an Icom 706). Both radio displays black out when I wear
polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
fuel station pumps black out.) It would be a good idea for
designers to consider sunglasses when designing radios for
mobile or portable use. I think the E-Ink technology
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eink> might be a good match for
radio displays.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 5/9/12 at 7:04, [hidden email] (VE3GNO Daniel) wrote:

>I want to ring the bell to ham comunity abt new fancy radios with LED/OLED displays.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | "The only thing we have to | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | fear is fear itself." - FDR | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933 | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

On 5/9/2012 10:05 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> I have installed a couple of radios in my cars (a Yaesu FTM-10
> and an Icom 706). Both radio displays black out when I wear
> polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
> fuel station pumps black out.) It would be a good idea for
> designers to consider sunglasses when designing radios for
> mobile or portable use. I think the E-Ink technology
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eink> might be a good match for
> radio displays.

It would be a better idea for sunglass manufacturers to stop using cheap
plastic polarizers and go back to the heavy-gradient (G-15) glass or
polycarbonate that they used before the cheap stuff became available.
I had a pair of Ray-Ban G-15s that lasted almost 20 years the lenses
outlasted the frame. Can't find them today.
---
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

Solution . . .

Have your optometrist darken only the top half of your lenses. That's
what you see through anyway. The bottom is used when you look down.

He can also remove tint from the bottom of already darkened sun glasses.

Cheaper and quicker than redesigning displays (which would probably
never happen anyway).

I've operated mobile HF for years with half-darkened sun glasses without
squinting and without instrument clusters or radio displays blacked
out. Likewise for gas pumps.

And . . . you're welcome.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

On 5/9/2012 12:05 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

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Wayne Conrad

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

I wonder if something's the matter with your glasses. In my experience,
radios, gas stations pumps, cel phones, &c. are set up to be aligned
properly for viewing through polarized sunglasses.

I had a pair of sun glasses made where they got the polarization 90
degrees off. Other than that they accentuated sun glare instead of
attenuating it, the other clue was that gas station pumps, radio
displays, and so on, were not visible without turning my head sideways.
I had the maker replace the lenses with ones that were properly
polarized, and all was well.

73, Wayne Conrad

On 05/09/12 10:05, Bill Frantz wrote:
> ... Both radio displays black out when I wear
> polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
> fuel station pumps black out.) ...
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Cookie

What happens if you take off your polarized sunglasses and turn them 90
degrees with respect to the display?
Kevin. KD5ONS

On 5/9/2012 10:54 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> I think a more practical solution is to ditch the polarized glasses. Since the LCDs work by polarizing light, the designers are stuck. I found that I either had to ditch the polarized lenses when flying or do without my GPS and other LCD readouts.
>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ& Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
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ve3dvy

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

I agree that there where many displays that go black with my polarized
lenses but it seems less in recent years as I think manufacturers are
realising that this is a problem I haven't tried it with my K3 yet
but I don't wear sun glasses in the shack but I may need them field
day. for those that drive in sunny places polarized sunglasses are
far better than any tinted glasses for glare so suggesting to toss
them is a not for me.

David Moes
VE3DVY

>
> --- Original message ---
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Radio Displays
> From: kevinr <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, 09/05/2012 3:31 PM
>
> What happens if you take off your polarized sunglasses and turn them
> 90
> degrees with respect to the display?
> Kevin. KD5ONS
>
>
> On 5/9/2012 10:54 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
>>
>> I think a more practical solution is to ditch the polarized glasses.
>> Since the LCDs work by polarizing light, the designers are stuck. I
>> found that I either had to ditch the polarized lenses when flying or
>> do without my GPS and other LCD readouts.
>>
>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>> K5EWJ& Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Arthur Burke

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

The same thing happens with my IC-7000. My next mobile rig is going to be
an Elecraft KX3 - I would bet there's less chance there! I hope, I hope, I
hope!

Art - N4PJ

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have installed a couple of radios in my cars (a Yaesu FTM-10
> and an Icom 706). Both radio displays black out when I wear
> polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
> fuel station pumps black out.) It would be a good idea for
> designers to consider sunglasses when designing radios for
> mobile or portable use. I think the E-Ink technology
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eink> might be a good match for
> radio displays.
>
> Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
>
> On 5/9/12 at 7:04, [hidden email] (VE3GNO Daniel) wrote:
>
> >I want to ring the bell to ham comunity abt new fancy radios with
> LED/OLED displays.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz | "The only thing we have to | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506 | fear is fear itself." - FDR | 16345
> Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933 | Los Gatos,
> CA 95032
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Radio Displays

Please, not E-ink. It needs ambient light so if you are mobiling at night with the lights out in your mobile vehicle then you will not see the e-ink display. Also, e-ink is slow and in general, I think, the entire display must be updated to change anything which makes it a hassle for display of real-time events such as s-meter, SWR, power out, or even spectrum display.

73, phil, K7PEH
PEH's iPad

On May 9, 2012, at 2:17 PM, Arthur Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The same thing happens with my IC-7000. My next mobile rig is going to be
> an Elecraft KX3 - I would bet there's less chance there! I hope, I hope, I
> hope!
>
> Art - N4PJ
>
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have installed a couple of radios in my cars (a Yaesu FTM-10
>> and an Icom 706). Both radio displays black out when I wear
>> polaroid sunglasses. (I have also noticed that the displays on
>> fuel station pumps black out.) It would be a good idea for
>> designers to consider sunglasses when designing radios for
>> mobile or portable use. I think the E-Ink technology
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eink> might be a good match for
>> radio displays.
>>
>> Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
>>
>> On 5/9/12 at 7:04, [hidden email] (VE3GNO Daniel) wrote:
>>
>>> I want to ring the bell to ham comunity abt new fancy radios with
>> LED/OLED displays.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Bill Frantz | "The only thing we have to | Periwinkle
>> (408)356-8506 | fear is fear itself." - FDR | 16345
>> Englewood Ave
>> www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933 | Los Gatos,
>> CA 95032
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Tony Estep

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:47 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...polarized sunglasses are far better than any tinted glasses...

============
Of course. The suggestion to use non-polarized was probably not serious.
Still, they do make a lot of screens go black: the local ATM and my car
radio are two examples.

The funniest side-effect is that some women who dye their hair show up with
a bizarre coif that looks as if it had been applied with a paintbrush. This
adds greatly to the entertainment value of walking on a busy sidewalk.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: Radio Displays

On Wed, 9 May 2012, Tony Estep wrote:

> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:47 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> ...polarized sunglasses are far better than any tinted glasses...
>
> ============
> Of course. The suggestion to use non-polarized was probably not serious.
> Still, they do make a lot of screens go black: the local ATM and my car
> radio are two examples.

Back when I worked in Japan, we'd laugh at how the "cheap" Taiwanese
LCDs got it wrong and put their polarizers horizontal so you couldn't
see things with good (polarized) sun glasses. Sounds like more people
don't know what they're doing with their LCDs than before.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Richard Ferch

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

Hi Art,

I don't have a KX3 to test, but on my K3 the display blacks out when I
rotate my polaroid sunglasses through 45 degrees clockwise. It looks
fine with my head oriented anywhere near vertically. The K3 and KX3
displays appear to be very similar, perhaps even identical, so hopefully
that's a good omen.

Interestingly (or perhaps not so interestingly), my laptop screen blacks
out when my sunglasses are rotated 45 degrees counterclockwise, i.e. in
the opposite direction. The two desktop monitors I checked both black
out when the sunglasses are rotated through 90 degrees.

73,
Rich VE3KI

N4PJ wrote:

k6dgw

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net

On 5/9/2012 2:58 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Rotating the polarized sunglasses 90% makes them ineffective in suppressing
> brilliant reflections and glare. I have never investigated how natural
> sunlight gets polarized, but good quality polarized sunglasses have their
> lens polarity set to be 90 degrees off and so block that glare.

Sunlight reflected at small angles, such as from a chrome strip [or a
wet road] is "glare" and is polarized in the same plane as the
reflector. This is predominantly horizontal, mostly, so polarized sun
glasses are or should be vertically polarized. Gas pump LCD's [and
ATM's and such things] have a predictable viewing angle, so if the LCD
is polarized vertically, you can read it. Some other things, like
perhaps mobile radios, HT's, and TV's in sports bars have less
predictable viewing angles. Wearing sunglasses in a sports bar could be
a bad idea on other grounds, however.

Survival Tip: If you are ever lost, look through polarized sunglasses
at the sky while rotating them. If you are certain you are lost north
of 23N, the direction which shows the biggest change in brightness is
north. Backscattered sunlight from the north is polarized, I'm not sure
why. Of course, if the shadows cast by the sun didn't already tip you
off about north, perhaps you're in more trouble than you first thought.
If you aren't sure you are north or south of 23N, it's likely hopeless. :-)

I'd like to know if this is reversed south of 23S. Maybe someone in VK
or ZL can test this for me. I've been to both once, didn't have
polarized sunglasses either time. Most everything seems to be reversed
there, up/down, you know.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Tony Estep

Re: Radio Displays

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...Sunlight reflected at small angles...is polarized in the same plane as
> the
> reflector. ...

> ...the direction which shows the biggest change in brightness is
> north. ...

========
Both Fred's tips are correct and worth noting. I have had various vision
problems for some years, and have worn polarized glasses ever since my doc
told me to. Very cool and helpful.

Tony KT0NY

--
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Bill Frantz

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net

I think mine are correctly aligned. Light is polarized when it
reflects off certain flat surfaces such as water and asphalt.
When I test my glasses, it kills those reflections best when my
head is level.

I agree that E-Ink has some disadvantages. It will absolutely
need an external light for night use. However, the Kindles
(which use E-Ink) I have looked at seem to be able to update
their screens reasonably quickly. Deciding if it is quick enough
does need to be tested. However, when I look at the K3 and KX3
displays, the only thing that might need speed is the s-meter.
They don't have spectrum displays, and the other items can
probably be handled by a peak-holding the display.

A quick glance at the Wikipedia article
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper> indicates that
these displays should be able to be made for selective update,
or even for application specific configurations like the
displays of the K3, KX3, FTM-10, and Icom 706 to name just a
few. Whether they can be manufactured economically in the small
quantities required by these applications I don't know.

The upside of the technology is an absolutely beautiful display,
much like type on paper. It doesn't fade out in sunlight and has
a wide angle of visibility. Since my FTM-10 is in a Miata, it is
really hard to read the screen in strong sunlight, even without
the polaroid problem. (And yes, the brightness is turned up to
max.) (For my writeup of installing that radio with its
broadcast AM/FM receive + 2M and 70cm, see the West Valley
Amateur Radio Association Heterodyne <http://www.wvara.org/het/heterodyne_201202.pdf>.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

Tilting my head in all cases changes the contrast of the screen,
from zero up to near max.
On 5/9/12 at 11:25, [hidden email] (Wayne Conrad) wrote:

>I wonder if something's the matter with your glasses.> In my
>experience, radios, gas stations pumps, cel phones, &c. are set
>up to be aligned properly for viewing through polarized sunglasses.

On 5/9/12 at 12:31, [hidden email] (kevinr) wrote:

>What happens if you take off your polarized sunglasses and turn
>them 90 degrees with respect to the display?

On 5/9/12 at 14:40, [hidden email] (Phil Hystad) wrote:

>Please, not E-ink. It needs ambient light so if you are
>mobiling at night with the lights out in your mobile vehicle
>then you will not see the e-ink display. Also, e-ink is slow
>and in general, I think, the entire display must be updated to
>change anything which makes it a hassle for display of
>real-time events such as s-meter, SWR, power out, or even
>spectrum display.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | to C's continuing support of | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | buffer overruns. | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Gary Gregory

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by k6dgw

*Fred,

Our gentlemans water goes down the drain in the opposite direction also..:-)

But then the centre of the universe is below 23 degrees also..:-)

Gary
*
On 10 May 2012 09:27, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/9/2012 2:58 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> > Rotating the polarized sunglasses 90% makes them ineffective in
> suppressing
> > brilliant reflections and glare. I have never investigated how natural
> > sunlight gets polarized, but good quality polarized sunglasses have their
> > lens polarity set to be 90 degrees off and so block that glare.
>
> Sunlight reflected at small angles, such as from a chrome strip [or a
> wet road] is "glare" and is polarized in the same plane as the
> reflector. This is predominantly horizontal, mostly, so polarized sun
> glasses are or should be vertically polarized. Gas pump LCD's [and
> ATM's and such things] have a predictable viewing angle, so if the LCD
> is polarized vertically, you can read it. Some other things, like
> perhaps mobile radios, HT's, and TV's in sports bars have less
> predictable viewing angles. Wearing sunglasses in a sports bar could be
> a bad idea on other grounds, however.
>
> Survival Tip: If you are ever lost, look through polarized sunglasses
> at the sky while rotating them. If you are certain you are lost north
> of 23N, the direction which shows the biggest change in brightness is
> north. Backscattered sunlight from the north is polarized, I'm not sure
> why. Of course, if the shadows cast by the sun didn't already tip you
> off about north, perhaps you're in more trouble than you first thought.
> If you aren't sure you are north or south of 23N, it's likely hopeless. :-)
>
> I'd like to know if this is reversed south of 23S. Maybe someone in VK
> or ZL can test this for me. I've been to both once, didn't have
> polarized sunglasses either time. Most everything seems to be reversed
> there, up/down, you know.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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N5GE-2

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Polarized glasses cannot reduce glare reflected from chrome, or any other smooth
metal object for that matter...

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Wed, 09 May 2012 16:27:59 -0700, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]
>
>Sunlight reflected at small angles, such as from a chrome strip [or a
>wet road] is "glare" and is polarized in the same plane as the
>reflector.
[snip]

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Stephen G4SJP

Re: Radio Displays

To stray even further off topic (sorry), I consider myself to have a good
sense of direction. I hardly ever get lost, I just seem to instinctively
know which direction to go in. When I got off the plane in Auckland and
picked up the hire car I spent the next two hours completely and utterly
lost. In NZ I never really did get the hang of directions and came to the
conclusion that it was because the sun was in the wrong place.

73 Stephen G4SJP

On Thursday, 10 May 2012, N5GE wrote:

>
> Polarized glasses cannot reduce glare reflected from chrome, or any other
> smooth
> metal object for that matter...
>
> 73,
> Tom
> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
> ARRL Lifetime Member
> QCWA Lifetime Member
>
> On Wed, 09 May 2012 16:27:59 -0700, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> >Sunlight reflected at small angles, such as from a chrome strip [or a
> >wet road] is "glare" and is polarized in the same plane as the
> >reflector.
> [snip]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Andy McMullin

Re: Radio Displays

Same happened to me in South Africa!!

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On 10 May 2012, at 09:58, Stephen Prior <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To stray even further off topic (sorry), I consider myself to have a good
> sense of direction. I hardly ever get lost, I just seem to instinctively
> know which direction to go in. When I got off the plane in Auckland and
> picked up the hire car I spent the next two hours completely and utterly
> lost. In NZ I never really did get the hang of directions and came to the
> conclusion that it was because the sun was in the wrong place.
>
> 73 Stephen G4SJP
>
> On Thursday, 10 May 2012, N5GE wrote:
>
>>
>> Polarized glasses cannot reduce glare reflected from chrome, or any other
>> smooth
>> metal object for that matter...
>>
>> 73,
>> Tom
>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>
>> On Wed, 09 May 2012 16:27:59 -0700, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]<javascript:;>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Sunlight reflected at small angles, such as from a chrome strip [or a
>>> wet road] is "glare" and is polarized in the same plane as the
>>> reflector.
>> [snip]
>>
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Mike Harris

Re: Radio Displays

In reply to this post by Stephen G4SJP

Sun in the wrong place? Very northern hemisphere. And while we're at
it, your view of the Moon is upside down.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO (52 South)

On 10/05/2012 05:58, Stephen Prior wrote:
> To stray even further off topic (sorry), I consider myself to have a good
> sense of direction. I hardly ever get lost, I just seem to instinctively
> know which direction to go in. When I got off the plane in Auckland and
> picked up the hire car I spent the next two hours completely and utterly
> lost. In NZ I never really did get the hang of directions and came to the
> conclusion that it was because the sun was in the wrong place.
>
> 73 Stephen G4SJP
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