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"Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

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K2MAW

"Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Hey folks,

KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made all my contacts with the Buddistick.

Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO over a wire?

I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202 and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....

Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.

Sent from my iPad
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Jim Brown-10

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

On Wed,9/28/2016 10:01 PM, Michael A. Wong wrote:
> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the wire, with the Buddistick,

That's entirely expected -- Buddistick, Buddipole, etc. is a short,
loaded antenna, so it IS less efficient (that is, less of the power from
your rig is radiated). It's an "appliance-operator's antenna," for those
who haven't taken the time to study the ARRL Handbook chapter on
antennas and the relevant chapters in the ARRL Antenna Book, and only
know to BUY a solution.

BOTH antennas need radials or a counterpoise to work.

> I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made all my contacts with the Buddistick.

Repeating for emphasis --

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR is NOT a meaningful measure of how well an antenna works.

SWR as indicated at the rig simply indicates that the antenna tuner is
matching the feedline to the radio, so that you're putting power into
the feedline. In virtually all portable operation, feedlines are too
short to contribute loss, so if the power is getting to the feedline,
it's getting to the antenna.

Antennas with loading coils are bad for three reasons. 1) loading coils
are lossy, so they burn power; 2) the antenna is physically shorter, so
the radiation resistance is lower; and 3) the resonance of antennas with
loading coils tend to be narrow-band, so they are more difficult to
match (that is, the antenna tuner must have a wider range). {Radiation
resistance is a theoretical resistance that allows us to compute the
radiated power. A higher number is better.]

73, Jim K9YC

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Bill Frantz

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

As the real resistance grows larger compared with the radiation
resistance, then more of the power is converted to heat in the
real resistance rather than radiated as RF.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/28/16 at 10:27 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>{Radiation resistance is a theoretical resistance that allows
>us to compute the radiated power. A higher number is better.]
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by K2MAW

Michael,

If received signals are stronger on the wire, almost certainly transmitted ones are too.

If you really want to know which is better, arrange some way to switch between them quickly so you can do an a-b comparison. With the K3's tuner, this is easy, but I believe the KX3 tuner only has one output, so you have to use an external switch. Keep in mind that the antennas will have different radiation patterns, of course.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 29 Sep 2016, at 08:01, Michael A. Wong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hey folks,
>
> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>
> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO over a wire?
>
> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202 and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>
> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>
>

Larry (K8UT)

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by K2MAW

The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
receiving station...

BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.

Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter
your callsign.
http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.

What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
one that's working.

-larry (K8UT)
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael A. Wong
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:01 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Hey folks,

KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
all my contacts with the Buddistick.

Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
over a wire?

I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....

Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.

Sent from my iPad
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Mike Morrow-3

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by K2MAW

Michael A. Wong (who declines to provide his call sign) writes;

> KX3 and Buddistick owner here.

Great on the former...my sympathies on the latter. :-)

> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire antennas,

Remove the words "maybe" and "random wire".

If you wish to experience the stark contrast between a proper wire antenna and your expensive ground resistance heater, you need only to construct a simple resonant wire dipole for 20 meters. (It's just a center insulator with 16.5 feet of wire coming off each side...fed with RG-58 or RG-8X coax going to the KX3.) The dipole provides its own counterpoise. (You did not describe the counterpoise that you used with your random wire.)

The performance difference on transmit and receive (if the band is not dead) compared to what you've been using should amaze you. The ATU will love it as well, inserting far less (or even no) lossy reactances for a match. (Many Elecrafters pretend those tiny little ATU inductors and capacitors are loss-free, but of course they certainly are not...TANSTAAFL!)

Of course, the above details are only for 20m. On request I can send description of a simple and extremely inexpensive 40m to 10m (seven-band) wire dipole that I've used for almost 40 years for portable (camp-site) operation.

Mike / KK5F
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KI4D

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by K2MAW

Michael - unless you are interested in experimenting regarding this project,
I have found the most effective, portable, flexible and lightweight wire
antenna system for 20 meters is the PAR-20 EndFedz antenna system from LNR
Precision. You can configure it as a vertical, horizontal or slanted
antenna. With a portable telescoping pole on a tripod (or thrown up in a
tree) it can be set up in about the same amount of time as the Buddistick,
and has been more effective in my experience. Good luck.

Don Lewis, KI4D

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Michael A. Wong
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:01 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Hey folks,

KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
all my contacts with the Buddistick.

Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
over a wire?

I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....

Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.

Sent from my iPad
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W4GRJ

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

When explaining low swr vs antenna efficiency I use the example of a dummy
load
perfect swr but not a very good antenna.

Jack
W4GRJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
Frantz
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:54 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

As the real resistance grows larger compared with the radiation resistance,
then more of the power is converted to heat in the real resistance rather
than radiated as RF.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/28/16 at 10:27 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>{Radiation resistance is a theoretical resistance that allows us to
>compute the radiated power. A higher number is better.]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | If the site is supported by | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | ads, you are the product. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Grant Youngman-2

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by K2MAW

I take some degree of umbrage with all of the comments that classify a shortened loaded vertical as a dummy load and a random wire (with or without a 9:1 balun, etc) as always better.

I regularly use both. If I’m at the beach, I guess I could have two friends hold a 35’ wire 5’ off the ground or put one end on a short pole and get excellent radiation straight up — or, I could quickly put up a Buddistick on a tripod or shock cord mast and start making some contacts. Keep the radial wire(s) 3’ or more off the ground/sand. Bungie the mast to a chair, or use a clamp on a table or whatever is handy, etc.

Sometimes a wire is better, sometimes even a shortened vertical is better — there are a lot of factors. To claim that one is ALWAYS better than the other, has not, in my experience, been the case given the wide variety of landscape, propagation conditions, locations of stations at the other end, radiation patterns, etc.

If you’re operating from an area with lots of trees, and you have a way to get a wire UP, then by all means put it UP and give it a try. (But carrying even light weight wire, by the time you add throwing line and weights, and potentially extra coax is going to negate some of the weight difference between the stick antenna and a wire). If not, either a commercial or home-brew vertical will be easier to put up and will make contacts.

With Buddipole products specifically you’re better off with the long whips and a couple of 22” arms on 20 — it takes maybe a couple of turns on the loading coil to get to resonance with a one or two elevated radials — but that’s more to carry around. The Buddipole stuff I own lets me put up a full size 20M vertical if I feel like it, although I don’t usually do that because it has to be guyed to be stable, and that’s just more work and more stuff to carry for only a small gain.

(This is not an ad for Buddipole. It’s simply one option and was part of the question).

YMMV

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 1:01 AM, Michael A. Wong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hey folks,
>
> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>
> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO over a wire?
>
> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202 and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>
> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

I have used both a Buddipole and wire antennas out in the field during various birding trips — while my wife is stalking feathered friends with her camera, I set up a nice field operation with my KX3 and antennas.

Often I have my pickup and I used to have great performance with an inverted-V 20-meter dipole using the center pole an extensible fiberglass pole (up 24 feet but raised by 5 feet so top elevation 29 feet). Although the wire conductors are sized for the low end of 20 since I operate CW only, I extend each of the two Dipole legs further out using dacron line before anchoring to the ground with tent pegs (or something else if convenient). The result is an inverted-V with a large angle separation to the legs.

Oh — one other thing. The fiberglass pole is mounted in the truck stake hole on the rear part of the bed and I can get buy with no guy lines if I am careful in setup.

I have not compared the Buddipole to the inverted-V dipole antenna directly because I bought my Buddipole after I broke my fiberglass pole and decided on using a Buddipole instead as it was more flexible in some ways and I would not have the dependence on my pickup truck. However, in general, I would say that the Inverted-V always beat out performance of the Buddipole but also the Buddipole does work.

Note — all my field work is KX3 QRP (10 watts) or a few times only a few watts using my KX1.

Both antennas though took me about the same time to set up — maybe about 20 minutes as I am not usually racing for some record set up time.

73, phil, K7PEH

ANCLETUS ERNEST

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman-2

I will tell you I have always tested random wire and ready made and home made vertical PVC and wire vertical antenna.
I have always gotten better results from my vertical antennas. You can go to YouTube or on my QRZ page go to the bottom of the page and click on the video. I have been doing QRP portable for about 15 years. I have used Alinco DX70 X108G, FX-9A,now my new toy KX2 all on QRP 10watts
From my DL750 Digicel

On Sep 29, 2016 9:18 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN <[hidden email]> wrote:
I take some degree of umbrage with all of the comments that classify a shortened loaded vertical as a dummy load and a random wire (with or without a 9:1 balun, etc) as always better.

I regularly use both. If I’m at the beach, I guess I could have two friends hold a 35’ wire 5’ off the ground or put one end on a short pole and get excellent radiation straight up — or, I could quickly put up a Buddistick on a tripod or shock cord mast and start making some contacts. Keep the radial wire(s) 3’ or more off the ground/sand. Bungie the mast to a chair, or use a clamp on a table or whatever is handy, etc.

Sometimes a wire is better, sometimes even a shortened vertical is better — there are a lot of factors. To claim that one is ALWAYS better than the other, has not, in my experience, been the case given the wide variety of landscape, propagation conditions, locations of stations at the other end, radiation patterns, etc.

If you’re operating from an area with lots of trees, and you have a way to get a wire UP, then by all means put it UP and give it a try. (But carrying even light weight wire, by the time you add throwing line and weights, and potentially extra coax is going to negate some of the weight difference between the stick antenna and a wire). If not, either a commercial or home-brew vertical will be easier to put up and will make contacts.

With Buddipole products specifically you’re better off with the long whips and a couple of 22” arms on 20 — it takes maybe a couple of turns on the loading coil to get to resonance with a one or two elevated radials — but that’s more to carry around. The Buddipole stuff I own lets me put up a full size 20M vertical if I feel like it, although I don’t usually do that because it has to be guyed to be stable, and that’s just more work and more stuff to carry for only a small gain.

(This is not an ad for Buddipole. It’s simply one option and was part of the question).

YMMV

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by Larry (K8UT)

That's great advice, Larry!

Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Larry
Gauthier (K8UT)

The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
receiving station...

BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.

Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter

your callsign.
http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.

What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
one that's working.

-larry (K8UT)
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael A. Wong

Hey folks,

KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
all my contacts with the Buddistick.

Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
over a wire?

I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202

and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....

Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.

______________________________________________________________
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K2MAW

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Thanks everyone! Larry's was great, quickly actionable advice. I’ll do this the next time I go out. I don’t have a shack, and am still hunting around for a spot where I can try some of the other great suggestions (that I can fit in my backpack and if I actually find a spot where I can string up a wire.

I do use a wire counterpoise for both my wire and Buddistick and try to keep it off the ground except for the end.

Yes, I have an older copy of the antenna book and I’m in the transmission lines chapter. I guess I should just skip ahead to the long wire chapter.

Given all the advice, I’m going to continue to try to find a good wire antenna deployment given the random locations I tend to drop in at.

Thanks all!

Michael
K2MAW

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That's great advice, Larry!
>
> Bill
> K9YEQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Larry
> Gauthier (K8UT)
>
> The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
> between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
> out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
> receiving station...
>
> BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
> in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
> callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.
>
> Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter
>
> your callsign.
> http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
> Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
> heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.
>
> What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
> move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
> one that's working.
>
> -larry (K8UT)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael A. Wong
>
> Hey folks,
>
> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
> would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
> Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
> wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
> all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>
> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
> a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
> wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
> Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
> over a wire?
>
> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
> triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
> between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
>
> and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
> Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>
> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
> antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Matt Zilmer-3

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Hi Michael,

If your KX3 has the ATU, you can use the following random wire for 20
through 10m, and it will work under all conditions I've come across.
I've used it on 40m as well, but there are more dependencies on height
of the radiator (to be effective).

28 foot radiator (I use #20 stranded). If you have a tree or even a
tall bush nearby, weight one end of the wire and toss it into the tree
as high as you can.

13 to 17 foot counterpoise, or "trailer" wire. This can be laid on the
ground, usually opposite of the direction your radiator is sloped.

Use a Banana to BNC adapter at the KX3, and attach the radiator to the
red post. The black post is attached to the counterpoise wire. Use
your ATU to adjust feedpoint SWR.

As a testimonial to this antenna configuration, I've used it on multiple
field days at 5W to score a ton of QRP contacts. One year, I was
outscoring our main station running a K3 at 100W while I had the KX3
using this antenna (at least some of that is technique and luck).

When you're done at the site, pull your radiator wire back down and wind
it up with the counterpoise wire. Then - you're on to your next site.

73,

matt W6NIA

On 09/29/2016 09:22 AM, Michael Wong wrote:

> Thanks everyone! Larry's was great, quickly actionable advice. I’ll do this the next time I go out. I don’t have a shack, and am still hunting around for a spot where I can try some of the other great suggestions (that I can fit in my backpack and if I actually find a spot where I can string up a wire.
>
> I do use a wire counterpoise for both my wire and Buddistick and try to keep it off the ground except for the end.
>
> Yes, I have an older copy of the antenna book and I’m in the transmission lines chapter. I guess I should just skip ahead to the long wire chapter.
>
> Given all the advice, I’m going to continue to try to find a good wire antenna deployment given the random locations I tend to drop in at.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> Michael
> K2MAW
>
>
>> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> That's great advice, Larry!
>>
>> Bill
>> K9YEQ
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Larry
>> Gauthier (K8UT)
>>
>> The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
>> between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
>> out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
>> receiving station...
>>
>> BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
>> in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
>> callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.
>>
>> Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter
>>
>> your callsign.
>> http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
>> Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
>> heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.
>>
>> What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
>> move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
>> one that's working.
>>
>> -larry (K8UT)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael A. Wong
>>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
>> would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
>> Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
>> wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
>> all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>>
>> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
>> a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
>> wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
>> Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
>> over a wire?
>>
>> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
>> triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
>> between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
>>
>> and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
>> Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>>
>> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
>> antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

--
"Always store beer in a dark place." -- R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Voignier]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

K2MAW

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Thanks Matt:

This is pretty close to what I have, but I’ve done a 36’ radiator and 13’ counterpoise. So maybe it’s in the details. I have my antenna wire (100’) wound on a kite string winder. I spool out what I calculate I need and the other end is connected to my BNC/banana adapter. So I have 60+’ of wire still wound on the reel. Is the inductance effect of the remaining wire wound on the reel have any effect on the antenna?

<Getting ready to be schooled.>

Michael
K2MAW

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> If your KX3 has the ATU, you can use the following random wire for 20 through 10m, and it will work under all conditions I've come across. I've used it on 40m as well, but there are more dependencies on height of the radiator (to be effective).
>
> 28 foot radiator (I use #20 stranded). If you have a tree or even a tall bush nearby, weight one end of the wire and toss it into the tree as high as you can.
>
> 13 to 17 foot counterpoise, or "trailer" wire. This can be laid on the ground, usually opposite of the direction your radiator is sloped.
>
> Use a Banana to BNC adapter at the KX3, and attach the radiator to the red post. The black post is attached to the counterpoise wire. Use your ATU to adjust feedpoint SWR.
>
> As a testimonial to this antenna configuration, I've used it on multiple field days at 5W to score a ton of QRP contacts. One year, I was outscoring our main station running a K3 at 100W while I had the KX3 using this antenna (at least some of that is technique and luck).
>
> When you're done at the site, pull your radiator wire back down and wind it up with the counterpoise wire. Then - you're on to your next site.
>
> 73,
>
> matt W6NIA
>
>
> On 09/29/2016 09:22 AM, Michael Wong wrote:
>> Thanks everyone! Larry's was great, quickly actionable advice. I’ll do this the next time I go out. I don’t have a shack, and am still hunting around for a spot where I can try some of the other great suggestions (that I can fit in my backpack and if I actually find a spot where I can string up a wire.
>>
>> I do use a wire counterpoise for both my wire and Buddistick and try to keep it off the ground except for the end.
>>
>> Yes, I have an older copy of the antenna book and I’m in the transmission lines chapter. I guess I should just skip ahead to the long wire chapter.
>>
>> Given all the advice, I’m going to continue to try to find a good wire antenna deployment given the random locations I tend to drop in at.
>>
>> Thanks all!
>>
>> Michael
>> K2MAW
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's great advice, Larry!
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> K9YEQ
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Larry
>>> Gauthier (K8UT)
>>>
>>> The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
>>> between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
>>> out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
>>> receiving station...
>>>
>>> BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
>>> in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
>>> callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.
>>>
>>> Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter
>>>
>>> your callsign.
>>> http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
>>> Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
>>> heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.
>>>
>>> What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
>>> move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
>>> one that's working.
>>>
>>> -larry (K8UT)
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael A. Wong
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>>
>>> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
>>> would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
>>> Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
>>> wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
>>> all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>>>
>>> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
>>> a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
>>> wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
>>> Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
>>> over a wire?
>>>
>>> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
>>> triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
>>> between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
>>>
>>> and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
>>> Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>>>
>>> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
>>> antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> --
> "Always store beer in a dark place." -- R. Heinlein
>
> Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
> [Voignier]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Matt Zilmer-3

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

Hi Michael,

Couple of points -

- Just about any random wire will work on some bands. "Work" just means
you can tune it with the ATU, but it may or may not be very efficient.
Otoh, putting *any* signal on the air is better than none. Tuning will
be easiest the closer to odd multiples of a quarter wave the radiator is
(and it might be fairly efficient too, if it's close to vertical). Your
36' configuration seems like it should work very well on 40m and 15m.

- Avoid half-wave configurations of the radiator length. For example,
66 feet on 40m won't tune easily or maybe at all using the ATU. A half
wave is very high impedance and not desirable to use in most cases.
Some hams use this configuration, but it really needs an impedance
transformer at the feedpoint to be "SWR-friendly" for the transmitter.

Your antenna sounds like it's certainly versatile enough to set up as
you need it. The big "lump" inductance at your spool is a lower
impedance than the wire (to free space), and should have no negative effect.

The other view of all the mad science is, "If it works to your liking,
keep using it."

There are a lot of hams that use Off-Center Fed dipoles (OCFs, they're
called) with great success on multiple bands. You might look into that
type of wire antenna and experiment with it a bit. You'll need a choke
balun to keep radiation off the feedline [except at resonance].

For a base station wire antenna, the doublet works well. My favorite FD
antenna is 70' and 70' balanced, fed with ladder line 61 feet long, and
terminated in a 1:1: balun. The other end of the balun is fed with coax
(the lowest loss you can find - say LMR400), and as short as physically
possible. I used this configuration for many years with MARS
out-of-ham-band operation and never really found a frequency I couldn't
use between 3 and 24 MHz.

73,

matt W6NIA

On 09/29/2016 09:49 AM, Michael Wong wrote:

> Thanks Matt:
>
> This is pretty close to what I have, but I’ve done a 36’ radiator and 13’ counterpoise. So maybe it’s in the details. I have my antenna wire (100’) wound on a kite string winder. I spool out what I calculate I need and the other end is connected to my BNC/banana adapter. So I have 60+’ of wire still wound on the reel. Is the inductance effect of the remaining wire wound on the reel have any effect on the antenna?
>
> <Getting ready to be schooled.>
>
> Michael
> K2MAW
>
>
>> On Sep 29, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> If your KX3 has the ATU, you can use the following random wire for 20 through 10m, and it will work under all conditions I've come across. I've used it on 40m as well, but there are more dependencies on height of the radiator (to be effective).
>>
>> 28 foot radiator (I use #20 stranded). If you have a tree or even a tall bush nearby, weight one end of the wire and toss it into the tree as high as you can.
>>
>> 13 to 17 foot counterpoise, or "trailer" wire. This can be laid on the ground, usually opposite of the direction your radiator is sloped.
>>
>> Use a Banana to BNC adapter at the KX3, and attach the radiator to the red post. The black post is attached to the counterpoise wire. Use your ATU to adjust feedpoint SWR.
>>
>> As a testimonial to this antenna configuration, I've used it on multiple field days at 5W to score a ton of QRP contacts. One year, I was outscoring our main station running a K3 at 100W while I had the KX3 using this antenna (at least some of that is technique and luck).
>>
>> When you're done at the site, pull your radiator wire back down and wind it up with the counterpoise wire. Then - you're on to your next site.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> matt W6NIA
>>
>>
>> On 09/29/2016 09:22 AM, Michael Wong wrote:
>>> Thanks everyone! Larry's was great, quickly actionable advice. I’ll do this the next time I go out. I don’t have a shack, and am still hunting around for a spot where I can try some of the other great suggestions (that I can fit in my backpack and if I actually find a spot where I can string up a wire.
>>>
>>> I do use a wire counterpoise for both my wire and Buddistick and try to keep it off the ground except for the end.
>>>
>>> Yes, I have an older copy of the antenna book and I’m in the transmission lines chapter. I guess I should just skip ahead to the long wire chapter.
>>>
>>> Given all the advice, I’m going to continue to try to find a good wire antenna deployment given the random locations I tend to drop in at.
>>>
>>> Thanks all!
>>>
>>> Michael
>>> K2MAW
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's great advice, Larry!
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> K9YEQ
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Larry
>>>> Gauthier (K8UT)
>>>>
>>>> The most likely answer is "it depends." Despite the theoretical differences
>>>> between the antennas, there are situational differences where one will
>>>> out-perform the other: quality of ground, height, propagation, direction to
>>>> receiving station...
>>>>
>>>> BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the Buddistick
>>>> in the CW portion and send the string "test test de <your callsign> <your
>>>> callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send the same string on the random wire.
>>>>
>>>> Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter
>>>>
>>>> your callsign.
>>>> http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
>>>> Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the stations who
>>>> heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize QSB and propagation fading.
>>>>
>>>> What do you get? The results ("which is better?") may be different as you
>>>> move from one location to another. If you can carry both antennas use the
>>>> one that's working.
>>>>
>>>> -larry (K8UT)
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael A. Wong
>>>>
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>>
>>>> KX3 and Buddistick owner here. I've been getting a lot of feedback that I
>>>> would get better performance (more contacts) with a random wire vs my
>>>> Buddistick. So, while I've noticed that reception is much better with the
>>>> wire, with the Buddistick, I get 1.1:1 according to the KX3 and have made
>>>> all my contacts with the Buddistick.
>>>>
>>>> Now, recognizing the DIY nature of our hobby might lead people to recommend
>>>> a random wire over a commercial antenna, if I actually manage to deploy the
>>>> wire "optimally", should I really see performance equal or outpace the
>>>> Buddistick? Or am I simply finding bad luck the times I try to get a QSO
>>>> over a wire?
>>>>
>>>> I've tried deploying from a 30' pole sloping down, the hypotenuse of the
>>>> triangle pointing to my desired direction. I tried deploying 40+ feet
>>>> between two trees about 12' off the ground. Now I'm going to get a Zebco 202
>>>>
>>>> and rig up my slingshot to deploy vertical. But honestly, I can get the
>>>> Buddistick up and running in about 3 minutes....
>>>>
>>>> Mainly, I'm on 20m and maybe I haven't read the right book on random wire
>>>> antennas, but I would appreciate the group's thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> --
>> "Always store beer in a dark place." -- R. Heinlein
>>
>> Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
>> [Voignier]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill Frantz

Re: "Random wire" vs Buddystick - myth, bias or luck?

In reply to this post by Larry (K8UT)

Note: Even if you don't know CW, you can program a memory in the
radio using the K3/K3S/KX3 utility to send the sequence. Just
press the button to sent the sequence and look at the reverse
beacon network.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/29/16 at 3:47 AM, [hidden email] (Larry Gauthier (K8UT)) wrote:

>BUT, you can measure those differences yourself. Tune-up on the
>Buddistick in the CW portion and send the string "test test de
><your callsign> <your callsign>". Move your VFO 5 KHz and send
>the same string on the random wire.
>
>Then open your browser to the Reverse Beacon Network's search page and enter your callsign.
>http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
>Compare your received signal strength on each antenna by the
>stations who heard you. Run the test a few times to minimize
>QSB and propagation fading.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten
408-356-8506 | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?

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