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Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

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Chester Alderman

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

With apologizes to Wayne and Eric and with full understanding of this
reflector rules, I am disgusted enough with Guy's below post that I HAVE to
respond.

Even if Guy's below post is 'tongue in cheek' it sure highlights Guy's lack
of thinking by posting it.

I have been a CW operator for a little over 62 years and I have never run
QRP simply because I don't want to...my prerogative as an amateur. To me, a
QRP operator ignorantly think it is 'cool' to brag about the contacts they
make, not realizing it is not their station capability that is making a QSO
but rather the person on the other end, who has the intelligence and station
capability to dig the QRP signal out of the QRN and ORM that really makes
the contact.

Notwithstanding the above, Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500 watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to its full 1500 watt output into my 16
element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE! Heaven only knows why Guy would want to
post something that labels his own intelligence! NONE of us has the right to
categorize others only because their participation in our hobby is different
from their own.

73,
Tom - W4BQF

[*]
****************************************************************************
******************

Well, there's 27 dB between the ears, so it's capable of making 100 w
extremely pesky, 5 watts actually work, and in the hands of a total LID,
render 1500 watts at a fine station useless. Have seen all of the above and
everything in between, the 27 dB is fairly accurate.

How come accurate? Because a fine QRP op actually CAN beat out a hopeless
LID at 1500 watts with equivalent antennas. That's 25 dB. Need to add a
couple extra dB to 25 because you don't know how far down in the hole a
hopeless LID really is. LID probably needs a couple extra dB to be able to
work anyone at all and get back up to zero. 27 dB between the ears.

As to Fred's skills? Come on. At worst he's mid-range for NCCC, and that for
sure is nothing to dismiss. He's just trying to sneak in a little
rope-a-dope for the next contest, get you off your guard, beat you in the
pile when you're not expecting it.

73, Guy.
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

Not just the reflector rules. The FCC's:

§97.313 Transmitter power standards.
(a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.

W3OU Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]>
To: 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 24, 2015 9:21 am
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

With apologizes to Wayne and Eric and with full understanding of this
reflector
rules, I am disgusted enough with Guy's below post that I HAVE
to
respond.

Even if Guy's below post is 'tongue in cheek' it sure highlights
Guy's lack
of thinking by posting it.

I have been a CW operator for a
little over 62 years and I have never run
QRP simply because I don't want
to...my prerogative as an amateur. To me, a
QRP operator ignorantly think it is
'cool' to brag about the contacts they
make, not realizing it is not their
station capability that is making a QSO
but rather the person on the other end,
who has the intelligence and station
capability to dig the QRP signal out of
the QRN and ORM that really makes
the contact.

Notwithstanding the above,
Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500
watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to
its full 1500 watt output into my 16
element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE!
Heaven only knows why Guy would want to
post something that labels his own
intelligence! NONE of us has the right to
categorize others only because their
participation in our hobby is different
from their own.

73,
Tom -
W4BQF

[*]
****************************************************************************
******************

Well,
there's 27 dB between the ears, so it's capable of making 100 w
extremely
pesky, 5 watts actually work, and in the hands of a total LID,
render 1500
watts at a fine station useless. Have seen all of the above and
everything in
between, the 27 dB is fairly accurate.

How come accurate? Because a fine QRP
op actually CAN beat out a hopeless
LID at 1500 watts with equivalent antennas.
That's 25 dB. Need to add a
couple extra dB to 25 because you don't know how
far down in the hole a
hopeless LID really is. LID probably needs a couple
extra dB to be able to
work anyone at all and get back up to zero. 27 dB
between the ears.

As to Fred's skills? Come on. At worst he's mid-range for
NCCC, and that for
sure is nothing to dismiss. He's just trying to sneak in a
little
rope-a-dope for the next contest, get you off your guard, beat you in
the
pile when you're not expecting it.

73,
Guy.
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Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

So if the "desired communications" is to be heard above the pile, or to be just damn loud...

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email: [hidden email]

> On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:40 AM, Sfbonk via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Not just the reflector rules. The FCC's:
>
> §97.313 Transmitter power standards.
> (a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.
>
>
> W3OU Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]>
> To: 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri, Apr 24, 2015 9:21 am
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!
>
>
> With apologizes to Wayne and Eric and with full understanding of this
> reflector
> rules, I am disgusted enough with Guy's below post that I HAVE
> to
> respond.
>
> Even if Guy's below post is 'tongue in cheek' it sure highlights
> Guy's lack
> of thinking by posting it.
>
> I have been a CW operator for a
> little over 62 years and I have never run
> QRP simply because I don't want
> to...my prerogative as an amateur. To me, a
> QRP operator ignorantly think it is
> 'cool' to brag about the contacts they
> make, not realizing it is not their
> station capability that is making a QSO
> but rather the person on the other end,
> who has the intelligence and station
> capability to dig the QRP signal out of
> the QRN and ORM that really makes
> the contact.
>
> Notwithstanding the above,
> Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
> me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500
> watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
> have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to
> its full 1500 watt output into my 16
> element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE!
> Heaven only knows why Guy would want to
> post something that labels his own
> intelligence! NONE of us has the right to
> categorize others only because their
> participation in our hobby is different
> from their own.
>
> 73,
> Tom -
> W4BQF
>
>
> [*]
> ****************************************************************************
> ******************
>
> Well,
> there's 27 dB between the ears, so it's capable of making 100 w
> extremely
> pesky, 5 watts actually work, and in the hands of a total LID,
> render 1500
> watts at a fine station useless. Have seen all of the above and
> everything in
> between, the 27 dB is fairly accurate.
>
> How come accurate? Because a fine QRP
> op actually CAN beat out a hopeless
> LID at 1500 watts with equivalent antennas.
> That's 25 dB. Need to add a
> couple extra dB to 25 because you don't know how
> far down in the hole a
> hopeless LID really is.

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

I have a friend who likes thin-crust pizza. The
problem is that she thinks anyone who prefers
thick-crust pizza and mentions it to her is
picking a fight with her. Something of an
overreaction, but that's the way she it.

QRP vs. QRO is like thin vs. thick crust pizza.
We all have our preferences, and stating them in a
discussion here is not intended to insult those
who do not have the same preferences.

We're very lucky to be able to run the range of
power levels we have (and have CW or PSK31 or SSB
or ...) -- and to have excellent equipment to let
us make all those choices with ease.

73, Phil W7OX

On 4/24/15 6:16 AM, Chester Alderman wrote:

> With apologizes to Wayne and Eric and with full understanding of this
> reflector rules, I am disgusted enough with Guy's below post that I HAVE to
> respond.
>
> Even if Guy's below post is 'tongue in cheek' it sure highlights Guy's lack
> of thinking by posting it.
>
> I have been a CW operator for a little over 62 years and I have never run
> QRP simply because I don't want to...my prerogative as an amateur. To me, a
> QRP operator ignorantly think it is 'cool' to brag about the contacts they
> make, not realizing it is not their station capability that is making a QSO
> but rather the person on the other end, who has the intelligence and station
> capability to dig the QRP signal out of the QRN and ORM that really makes
> the contact.
>
> Notwithstanding the above, Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
> me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500 watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
> have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to its full 1500 watt output into my 16
> element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE! Heaven only knows why Guy would want to
> post something that labels his own intelligence! NONE of us has the right to
> categorize others only because their participation in our hobby is different
> from their own.
>
> 73,
> Tom - W4BQF
>
>
> [*]
> ****************************************************************************
> ******************
>
> Well, there's 27 dB between the ears, so it's capable of making 100 w
> extremely pesky, 5 watts actually work, and in the hands of a total LID,
> render 1500 watts at a fine station useless. Have seen all of the above and
> everything in between, the 27 dB is fairly accurate.
>
> How come accurate? Because a fine QRP op actually CAN beat out a hopeless
> LID at 1500 watts with equivalent antennas. That's 25 dB. Need to add a
> couple extra dB to 25 because you don't know how far down in the hole a
> hopeless LID really is. LID probably needs a couple extra dB to be able to
> work anyone at all and get back up to zero. 27 dB between the ears.
>
> As to Fred's skills? Come on. At worst he's mid-range for NCCC, and that for
> sure is nothing to dismiss. He's just trying to sneak in a little
> rope-a-dope for the next contest, get you off your guard, beat you in the
> pile when you're not expecting it.
>
> 73, Guy.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

The FCC rules say nothing about the SNR for "desired communications".

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-04-24 9:40 AM, Sfbonk via Elecraft wrote:

>
>
>
> Not just the reflector rules. The FCC's:
>
> §97.313 Transmitter power standards.
> (a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.
>
>
> W3OU Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]>
> To: 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri, Apr 24, 2015 9:21 am
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!
>
>
> With apologizes to Wayne and Eric and with full understanding of this
> reflector
> rules, I am disgusted enough with Guy's below post that I HAVE
> to
> respond.
>
> Even if Guy's below post is 'tongue in cheek' it sure highlights
> Guy's lack
> of thinking by posting it.
>
> I have been a CW operator for a
> little over 62 years and I have never run
> QRP simply because I don't want
> to...my prerogative as an amateur. To me, a
> QRP operator ignorantly think it is
> 'cool' to brag about the contacts they
> make, not realizing it is not their
> station capability that is making a QSO
> but rather the person on the other end,
> who has the intelligence and station
> capability to dig the QRP signal out of
> the QRN and ORM that really makes
> the contact.
>
> Notwithstanding the above,
> Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
> me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500
> watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
> have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to
> its full 1500 watt output into my 16
> element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE!
> Heaven only knows why Guy would want to
> post something that labels his own
> intelligence! NONE of us has the right to
> categorize others only because their
> participation in our hobby is different
> from their own.
>
> 73,
> Tom -
> W4BQF
>
>
> [*]
> ****************************************************************************
> ******************
>
> Well,
> there's 27 dB between the ears, so it's capable of making 100 w
> extremely
> pesky, 5 watts actually work, and in the hands of a total LID,
> render 1500
> watts at a fine station useless. Have seen all of the above and
> everything in
> between, the 27 dB is fairly accurate.
>
> How come accurate? Because a fine QRP
> op actually CAN beat out a hopeless
> LID at 1500 watts with equivalent antennas.
> That's 25 dB. Need to add a
> couple extra dB to 25 because you don't know how
> far down in the hole a
> hopeless LID really is. LID probably needs a couple
> extra dB to be able to
> work anyone at all and get back up to zero. 27 dB
> between the ears.
>
> As to Fred's skills? Come on. At worst he's mid-range for
> NCCC, and that for
> sure is nothing to dismiss. He's just trying to sneak in a
> little
> rope-a-dope for the next contest, get you off your guard, beat you in
> the
> pile when you're not expecting it.
>
> 73,
> Guy.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft
> mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This
> list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft
> mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This
> list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

On Fri,4/24/2015 7:17 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> QRP vs. QRO is like thin vs. thick crust pizza. We all have our
> preferences, and stating them in a discussion here is not intended to
> insult those who do not have the same preferences.

I run QRP during those DX contests whose rules are so tilted to the east
coast that anyone living west of Detroit isn't in the game. It's a form
of sticking my finger in the eye of those who continue to keep the rules
in their favor. If they want a point from me, they have to work for it.

73, Jim K9YC
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Jim Allen

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

Guy's post cannot be interpreted to refer to you, Tom.

Perhaps the best way to view this is the response of Dollie Parton who,
when asked if she was offended by dumb blond jokes, replied "No, because
I'm not dumb and I'm not blond."

If you aren't one either, don't fret about it.

73 W6OGC Jim Allen

Message: 19
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:16:33 -0400
From: "Chester Alderman" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Elecraft Reflector'" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!
Message-ID: <002901d07e90$e30217e0$a90647a0$@windstream.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

.........

Notwithstanding the above, Guy has found the intestinal fortitude to label
me as a 'hopeless LID at 1500 watts' just because in MY HOBBY I prefer to
have my K3 drive my Alpha 9500 to its full 1500 watt output into my 16
element yagi at 80', IF I SO CHOOSE! Heaven only knows why Guy would want
to post something that labels his own intelligence! NONE of us has the
right to
categorize others only because their participation in our hobby is different
from their own.

73,
Tom - W4BQF
______________________________________________________________
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mcduffie

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

> Guy's post cannot be interpreted to refer to you, Tom.

Have to agree. When I read that, it never even crossed my mind that he
was taking a poke at Tom. Not until his big defensive followup did it
come to mind. I think Tom is more than a bit paranoid or something. The
post was just saying that there are LIDS out there who can easily be
beat by better operating practices. There was no finger pointing
intended, or conveyed to any one person, certainly not Tom.

Chill Tom. No one is gunning for you. Sorry you aren't having a better
day.

By the way, I have a lot of fun getting up on the higher bands barefoot
at my drive power (25W) and working DX. Once I snag them and get a
report across, I reach up and hit the switch on the KPA. I then explain
that was had been running at a very low power, sometimes 10W. Lots of
fun.

Gary
--
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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Jim Low man

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

In reply to this post by Jim Allen

I agree. Guy didn't seem to me to be calling out any one individual in
particular.

What he said could be boiled down to "skill and experience beat higher
power."
Higher power does no good if the operator's fist is so bad, for example,
that many others choose not to work him.
Or, if the operator does not follow the accepted DX Code of Conduct.

73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 4/24/2015 7:42 AM, Jim Allen wrote:

> Guy's post cannot be interpreted to refer to you, Tom.
>
> Perhaps the best way to view this is the response of Dollie Parton who,
> when asked if she was offended by dumb blond jokes, replied "No, because
> I'm not dumb and I'm not blond."
>
> If you aren't one either, don't fret about it.
>
> 73 W6OGC Jim Allen
>
>

Chester Alderman

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

Jim...you are correct in that Guy did not call me out specifically and I
misinterpreted his putting 'LIDs' and '1500 watts' together meant that in
his opinion anyone using 1500 watts was a LID and I run 1500 watts when I
please. I have exchanged emails with Guy and all is well. Therefore no need
for further comments on this subject.

Thanks and 73,

Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
Lowman
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 1:47 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

I agree. Guy didn't seem to me to be calling out any one individual in
particular.

What he said could be boiled down to "skill and experience beat higher
power."
Higher power does no good if the operator's fist is so bad, for example,
that many others choose not to work him.
Or, if the operator does not follow the accepted DX Code of Conduct.

73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 4/24/2015 7:42 AM, Jim Allen wrote:

> Guy's post cannot be interpreted to refer to you, Tom.
>
> Perhaps the best way to view this is the response of Dollie Parton
> who, when asked if she was offended by dumb blond jokes, replied "No,
> because I'm not dumb and I'm not blond."
>
> If you aren't one either, don't fret about it.
>
> 73 W6OGC Jim Allen
>
>

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Considering a KPA-500 - WAY off topic!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

OT part of this thread is now closed.

Guy was -not- accusing you directly, nor ALL 1500 W amp users, of being CW lids.
He was just saying a person with poor CW operating skills, even when using
1500W, can be frequently be beaten by a QRP op who may have excellent CW skills.
It was not a personal attack or a broad brush attack on all 1500W ops. It was
more of a general statement that skill frequently outweighs pure power. I own a
1500 W amp in addition to my KPA500, operate CW QRO and QRP, and did not take
offense.

Guys - please take a breath and resist the rush to reply to perceived insults.
Its easy to unnecessarily post somehting you later regret, especially when you
find you mis-interpreted the intent of the original poster..Waiting overnight to
post these types of replies usually results in their going into the delete bin
instead the next morning. ;-)

73,

Eric
List moderator, when I have to..
elecraft.com

On 4/24/2015 6:16 AM, Chester Alderman wrote: