Re: Elecraft Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9

[N8LP]

Thanks for your typically thorough testing and analysis, Jack. I would
add one comment to your tests as it relates to my testing during the
design of LP-PAN. You assume a 10K load Z for a typical sound card. I
have now characterized half a dozen "professional" sound cards suitable
for use with broadband "softrock" type receivers. In my testing I have
found substantial variation of input Z vs. frequency, ranging from under
500 ohms to almost 100K ohms depending on card and frequency. It should
be noted that my test equipment leaves something to be desired when
measuring Z at very low audio frequencies. I don't know that such loads
would affect the distortion of the circuit being tested, but I suspect
it could at certain frequencies.

I add a resistive load across the xfmr secondary to moderate the effects
of the varying loads, and set a lower limit for cards with extremely
high input Z. The optimum value changes from card to card, but I found
approx. 2K ohms to be a reasonable choice with LP-PAN (using SP70
xfmrs)  where flat response out to 100 kHz is a primary design goal.
This, of course, would not be the case for a K3 audio output where 5 kHz
would be adequate response. The added load could probably be lower in
that case, but that may be counter productive if the sound card has a
low Z in the 400-800 Hz range used for CW. These things are never
simple, are they?

Larry N8LP

> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:22:33 -0400
> From: Jack Smith <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] Harmonic Distortion and Audio Intermodulation in
> K3's LIN OUT Port
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I've completed a series of detailed measurements trying to understand
> why my K3's LIN OUT port exhibits greater distortion and anomalies than
> found in the headphone and speaker ports.
>
> Details are at
> http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm
>
> What I found is that the 604 ohm resistor between U29's output amplifier
> stage and the TTC-108 transformer primary winding forces the TTC-108
> isolation transformer to operate in a regime where the performance
> improving effects of a zero ohm driving source are not available. Hence,
> the TTC-108's 0.5% THD performance significantly limits the LIN OUT
> ports performance.
>
> I've also provided a  theoretical parts value change that should improve
> the LIN OUT distortion and intermodulation. I have not implemented this
> change in my K3, but the external circuit mockup I used for testing
> strongly supports the change.
>
> I've supplied my measurements to the gurus at Elecraft for their
> consideration. If my data and  recommendations make sense, I would
> expect confirmation from Aptos, after they have time to think it over
> and consider possible side effects.
>
> Jack K8ZOA
> www.cliftonlaboratories.com
>  

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:20:18 -0400, Larry Phipps wrote:

>flat response out to 100 kHz is a primary design goal.

Jensen Transformers are typically flat to several hundred kHz.

I'd be interested in seeing your sound card Z measurements.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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[Jack Smith-6]

About a half hour ago, I added frequency sweep data for the TTC-108
transformer  to my
http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm page.

The new data looks at frequency response with terminations of 620 ohm
and 10K, for both direct op-amp drive and drive through a 620R series
resistor. The good news is that even the worst case frequency response
(620R series to the primary and 620R  termination) is more than adequate
for our purposes, 200 Hz to 10 KHz with reasonable flatness. Low
frequency response, of course, gets much better with direct drive from a
zero ohm source, and high frequency response improves with high Z loads,
but there's no real difference at the K3's maximum audio response.  Of
course, that's far from the case with the LP-PAN where you seek flat
response up to 100 KHz and beyond.

Assuming your measured bounds of 500 ohms  to 100K ohms is
representative of sound cards, I don't see a problem with the TTC-108,
assuming the TTC-108 is driven with a low impedance source, at least
from a frequency response point of view.

I have not yet looked at THD or IMD with varying terminations. I plan to
do that in the next week or so after my HP8903B audio test set arrives
and I can automate THD measurements. It's far too labor intensive to do
a lot of combinations at the moment.

Jack


Larry Phipps wrote:

> Thanks for your typically thorough testing and analysis, Jack. I would
> add one comment to your tests as it relates to my testing during the
> design of LP-PAN. You assume a 10K load Z for a typical sound card. I
> have now characterized half a dozen "professional" sound cards
> suitable for use with broadband "softrock" type receivers. In my
> testing I have found substantial variation of input Z vs. frequency,
> ranging from under 500 ohms to almost 100K ohms depending on card and
> frequency. It should be noted that my test equipment leaves something
> to be desired when measuring Z at very low audio frequencies. I don't
> know that such loads would affect the distortion of the circuit being
> tested, but I suspect it could at certain frequencies.
>
> I add a resistive load across the xfmr secondary to moderate the
> effects of the varying loads, and set a lower limit for cards with
> extremely high input Z. The optimum value changes from card to card,
> but I found approx. 2K ohms to be a reasonable choice with LP-PAN
> (using SP70 xfmrs)  where flat response out to 100 kHz is a primary
> design goal. This, of course, would not be the case for a K3 audio
> output where 5 kHz would be adequate response. The added load could
> probably be lower in that case, but that may be counter productive if
> the sound card has a low Z in the 400-800 Hz range used for CW. These
> things are never simple, are they?
>
> Larry N8LP
>
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:22:33 -0400
>> From: Jack Smith <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Harmonic Distortion and Audio Intermodulation in
>>     K3's    LIN OUT Port
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> I've completed a series of detailed measurements trying to understand
>> why my K3's LIN OUT port exhibits greater distortion and anomalies
>> than found in the headphone and speaker ports.
>>
>> Details are at
>> http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm
>>
>> What I found is that the 604 ohm resistor between U29's output
>> amplifier stage and the TTC-108 transformer primary winding forces
>> the TTC-108 isolation transformer to operate in a regime where the
>> performance improving effects of a zero ohm driving source are not
>> available. Hence, the TTC-108's 0.5% THD performance significantly
>> limits the LIN OUT ports performance.
>>
>> I've also provided a  theoretical parts value change that should
>> improve the LIN OUT distortion and intermodulation. I have not
>> implemented this change in my K3, but the external circuit mockup I
>> used for testing strongly supports the change.
>>
>> I've supplied my measurements to the gurus at Elecraft for their
>> consideration. If my data and  recommendations make sense, I would
>> expect confirmation from Aptos, after they have time to think it over
>> and consider possible side effects.
>>
>> Jack K8ZOA
>> www.cliftonlaboratories.com
>>  
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