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Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and
> now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on
> supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and
transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD. Output
power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though
60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly
outstanding IMD.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>
> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>
>> k4ia, Buck
>> K3# 101
>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Gilbert

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the
bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared
more toward fixed station use than portable operation. You could have
kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually
needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than
it now will be. I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters
are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd
be interested in hearing why. I'd also bet that the great majority of
K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it
off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at
least 10 db less clean than was technically practical.

Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.

Dave AB7E

On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>
> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>
>> k4ia, Buck
>> K3# 101
>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by W2xj

On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
> One could always have a modular approach which is how other
> industries approach this.
Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or
a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space. Not exactly
rocket science.

> BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries.

Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog
UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV
today. Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance
operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading
batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower. On top of that,
predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for
every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always
be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:

> One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>>> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
>>> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
>>> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
>>
>> If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
>>
>> Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
>> of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
>> ("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
>> 60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
>>
>> Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
>> an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
>> regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
>>
>> Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
>> at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
>> of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
>> available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>

wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe,

Not everyone uses an amp with their 100-W rig (in fact, far less than half). Like other 100-W radios that are compatible with field use, the K3/K3S/K4 must make ~100 W from a 12-15 V mobile, solar, or battery supply. But it also has to be efficient at this power level.

If you only need amp drive power, the IMD improves. And the K4 is capable of predistortion, which means that at amp drive levels, IMD performance should be truly outstanding.

The transformer ratio is 16:1, the same as most other "12 V capable" 100 W transceivers. If you go to 25:1, drain current goes way up, precluding the use of standard 20/25-A power supplies and making the radio a lot less portable.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and
>> now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on
>> supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>
> It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and
> transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD. Output
> power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though
> 60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly
> outstanding IMD.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>>
>>> k4ia, Buck
>>> K3# 101
>>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

You're right, Joe: you don't want to push predistortion to the max available power out on a given band. It may be a little less than 100 W to ensure headroom under all load conditions.

And these days, predistortion is done with DSP. The K4 has a lot more horsepower in this regard than the K3/K3S.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach this.
> Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or
> a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space. Not exactly
> rocket science.
>
> > BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries.
>
> Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog
> UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV
> today. Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance
> operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading
> batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower. On top of that,
> predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for
> every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always
> be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV

wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :)

A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically speaking.

The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating convenience and efficiency.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward fixed station use than portable operation. You could have kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be. I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing why. I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically practical.
>
> Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>>
>> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>>
>>> k4ia, Buck
>>> K3# 101
>>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my
last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very
many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs to
buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so I'm not
sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if the price
range is similar. If anyone views that differently I'd like to hear
their reasoning.

And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition operators
would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard buttons
instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I know that I have
operated entire major contests without ever touching anything except the
tuning knob on my K3. Everything else I need to do is controllable from
N1MM+.

The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on
both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would
likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner
signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse.

Done now. ;)

73,
Dave AB7E

On 11/4/2019 6:39 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :)
>
> A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically speaking.
>
> The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating convenience and efficiency.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward fixed station use than portable operation. You could have kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be. I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing why. I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically practical.
>>
>> Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>>>
>>> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>>>
>>>> k4ia, Buck
>>>> K3# 101
>>>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>>>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Scott Manthe-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If your
assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a FTDX-101.
Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric are willing
to bet their actual money against your virtual money that lots of ops
will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people have been
asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm pretty sure if
Elecraft builds it, the customers will come.

The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to predistortion.

73,
Scott N9AA

On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my
> last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very
> many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs
> to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so
> I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if
> the price range is similar. If anyone views that differently I'd
> like to hear their reasoning.
>
> And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition
> operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard
> buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I know that I
> have operated entire major contests without ever touching anything
> except the tuning knob on my K3. Everything else I need to do is
> controllable from N1MM+.
>
> The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on
> both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would
> likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner
> signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse.
>
> Done now. ;)
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>

Gary Smith-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

FWIW, I am betting on the K4 and have
fully pre-paid the estimate on the K4D.

If it comes out to cost more in the end,
so be it. I love my K3 & the K3s because
of their wonderful brilliance, how could I
not possibly go for the K4 knowing the
mentality behind the brand?

Personally, I wish I had an iota of the
necessary mojo to create such a radio. As
I don't, I have faith in those who do.

My 2 pence...

73,

Gary
KA1J

> How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If
> your assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a
> FTDX-101. Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric
> are willing to bet their actual money against your virtual money that
> lots of ops will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people
> have been asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm
> pretty sure if Elecraft builds it, the customers will come.
>
> The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to
> predistortion.
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
>
> On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
> >
> > I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be
> > my last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think
> > very many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their
> > K3s rigs to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do
> > so), so I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt
> > rig even if the price range is similar. If anyone views that
> > differently I'd like to hear their reasoning.
> >
> > And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition
> > operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching
> > keyboard buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I
> > know that I have operated entire major contests without ever
> > touching anything except the tuning knob on my K3. Everything else
> > I need to do is controllable from N1MM+.
> >
> > The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on
> > both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they
> > would likely override the immediate value in having a significantly
> > cleaner signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better
> > or for worse.
> >
> > Done now. ;)
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Edward R Cole

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Elecraft has made their design decisions for the K4.

Since someone suggested running a 100w 12v device at 60w then it
occurs to me to obtain 100-120w then run two devices in parallel or
push-pull. Should not increase weight or drive requirements by a
significant amount. Cost probably under 150%.

I bought the K3/10 initially because i mainly operate VHF thru
mw. Later I bought a 10w KX3. Then decided on the KXPA100 which
either can drive with about 5w for full output thru 24m. Of course
the KXPA100 uses 12v devices but a clever ham could build a two
device amp, instead. Only on 6m is full 8w drive required for 80w
output of the KXPA100.

I use the 1mw (nom) transverter interface to drive transverters on 2m
and above so output is clean. I have a 1000w linear* for 6m which
drives with 11w from the KXPA100 (have to switch on the 3-dB attn on
input to get that low). The 1000w amp runs with 48v as do my 2m
1500w and 600w 1296 LDMOS amps. I keep output at start of saturation
or lower on all the high power amps.

*6m 1000w amp is capable of 1600w 24/7 keydown AM operation on ch.2
TV, so is loafing at 1000w which is the limit of my 48v - 50A PS.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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W2xj

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

the next step would be to get rid of linear amplification. It’s an over 90 year old technique that was originally all but necessary to amplify SSB. New methods employing saturated switching amplification would be much more efficient (90% or more) while having much lower IMD (-80 db or more) and produce a lot less heat all while maintaining 12 volt operation and eliminating the TX D/A converter. Probably some form of RFPWM but there are other options.

The wireless data people are all over these technologies as power efficiency in that area is an extreme requirement but because of the frequencies involved this can be a tradeoff against suppressing switching byproducts and require complicated bandpass filters. For HF Ham radio applications only a fairly simple low pass filter would be necessary.

A thought for a K4S or K5?

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 6:21 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)
>
> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>>
>> k4ia, Buck
>> K3# 101
>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>
>
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Phil Kane-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles.

Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
-48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage
converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.

(*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was
a teen-ager!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Jim Rhodes-3

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

There have been a few amateur transceivers made that ran their solid state
finals at higher voltages and then had their own internal supplies. But the
industry has decided that the "standard" is still "12V". The rigs with the
higher voltage just don't take off and induce sales.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 11:19 AM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
>
> > Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and
> other vehicles.
>
> Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
> -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage
> converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.
>
> (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was
> a teen-ager!
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

W2xj

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

i’ve been a user of 48 volt gear for decades in my day job but it is not what the average consumer can easily access.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 5, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
>
>> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles.
>
> Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
> -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage
> converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.
>
> (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was
> a teen-ager!
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Ed Pflueger

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

I always used Wilmore supplies to do the various tasks to convert our 48VDC.
Also used them on 72VDC equipment and never had one fail.

Ed.. AB4IQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Kane
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 11:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other
vehicles.

Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
-48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter
for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.

(*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a
teen-ager!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
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delivered to [hidden email]

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Leroy

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

The FAA still uses 13.6 volt AM around the world, even the Western air
defense com is same.
The Huge power UPS legacy sytems are part of the same old standard that
won't die.

leroy ab7ce

On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other
vehicles.

Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
-48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter
for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.

(*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a
teen-ager!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

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Martin Sole-3

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I've been in aviation ground comms pretty much my whole working life,
now about 43 years, and apart from the odd mobile radio just about every
bit of kit runs off regular single phase AC from 100-250 volts 50/60Hz
plus DC at nominally 24 volts, these days often specified as 28 volts in
line with solid state PA device requirements. Pretty much every GATR or
TRACON site that provides a DC supply does so either at -48 volts for
the phone line (and voice switching) systems or 24/28 volts for the
comms radios often deriving the 24 from the 48 volts supply.

I recall some airfield navigations aids, ILS/DME that had a nominal 12
volt backup supply but I think that was only some oddball stuff,
certainly all the equipment I have actually worked on has been 24/28 volt.

Interestingly Icom makes a vehicle radio for air band use 118-137MHz
about 5 watts carrier so around 20 watts pep. This radio is both 13.8
and 28 volts capable. It senses when the supply gets about about 14-15
volt and switches in a buck converter (I guess). Other than small cars
and pick-up trucks most airfield vehicles are also 24 volt.

I think from a ham shack perspective, going to 24 as opposed to 12 volts
should not be a big deal. Two batteries in series instead of one.
Charging in parallel or series as you like. In those same comm site
systems most of the DC supplies are provided by banks of 2 volt cells
all racked together and feeding either a direct DC connection to
equipment or to a UPS. Twice the voltage means half the current with the
added benefit of half the IxR losses in any given cable. Given the
impact of solar energy systems maybe not too long before houses get
built with dedicated battery rooms :)

So far as amateur radio design goes a lot of the top line, for the day,
AC mains powered base station radios have used 24/28 volt final stages,
TS930/940/950, IC781, FT1000. I'm sure their modern equivalents do the
same. Though it does seem that the AC powered base station radio is much
less common these days, I attribute that less to the wishes of the
market and more the costs/demands of testing and certification in our
more risk averse world.

I think it would be a reasonable design goal to have a radio that has
low level 10 watt output from on the base unit, with a plug in 100 watt
12 volts powered PA unit or an equally plug in 100 or 200 watt 24 or 48
volt PA, use of which would necessitate a different supply but could
likely include on board the down converter for the rest of the radio. I
think all of that should be pretty much achievable technically. Not sure
if the market would be smart enough to recognise the benefits though.

Martin, HS0ZED

On 06/11/2019 04:37, lmarion wrote:

> The FAA still uses 13.6 volt AM around the world, even the Western
> air defense com is same.
> The Huge power UPS legacy sytems are part of the same old standard
> that won't die.
>
> leroy ab7ce
>
>
> On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
>
>> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and
>> other
> vehicles.
>
> Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at
> -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage
> converter
> for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run.
>
> (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell
> was a
> teen-ager!
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

Folks, we're way over the single topic posting limit here, and the discussion has drifted way off the original topic into transmitter design and other topics.

Lets close this thread now in the interest of relieving our readers of email overload.

Also, please do not cross post to multiple lists as this makes it impossible to moderate replies from the other list.

73,
Eric
Moderator, when I can pull away from other duties at Elecraft ;-)
elecraft.com
_..._

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Conrad PA5Y

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne I bought a K3S, mainly to use as a transverter driver for which it is excellent. The transverter output is super clean. I also wanted to use it on 6m but there is not any power level where the TX IMD is anywhere near acceptable and it is much worse than an IC7300! I have engaged with your support team but got no useful help. I was advised to run test mode with an external PA! Basically the K3S PA is unusable for SSB on 6m for anyone with a conscience. I have confirmed the performance with 2 other K3S radios, they are all very poor. Its a good job that people only use FT8 on 6m these days! As for the SSB contests I will just have to pretend that things are ok 🙁

I sincerely hope that you pay close attention to 6m TX IMD with the K4 because the K3S completely fails in this regard.

73

Conrad PA5Y

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
Sent: 05 November 2019 02:31
To: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Joe,

Not everyone uses an amp with their 100-W rig (in fact, far less than half). Like other 100-W radios that are compatible with field use, the K3/K3S/K4 must make ~100 W from a 12-15 V mobile, solar, or battery supply. But it also has to be efficient at this power level.

If you only need amp drive power, the IMD improves. And the K4 is capable of predistortion, which means that at amp drive levels, IMD performance should be truly outstanding.

The transformer ratio is 16:1, the same as most other "12 V capable" 100 W transceivers. If you go to 25:1, drain current goes way up, precluding the use of standard 20/25-A power supplies and making the radio a lot less portable.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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