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Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to.   The section in Rob's article on
Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse".

Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately
our transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL
published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in
1997. The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range.
In 2019 an ARRL review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported
the third order distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB
degradation from 1997 to 2019.    I'd call this "worse".

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:

>
> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did
> you mean something else? I know this is semantics….
>
> 73,
>
> Bill
>
> K9YEQ
>
> https://wrj-tech.com/
>
> *From:*[hidden email] <[hidden email]> *On Behalf Of
> *Rob Sherwood
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:16 PM
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> The K3S is excellent in respect to transmit composite noise. Transmit
> IMD, on the other hand, is quite different at various power levels.
> The sweet spot is around 35 watts, but much worse at 12 watts and 100
> watts. Here is composite noise data. Hopefully the formatting will
> hold up.
>
> Rob, NC0B
>
> Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters values in dBc/Hz
>
> Rig @ 100 watts                2 kHz offset        10 kHz offset
> 20 kHz offset      100 kHz offset
>
> K3S -141                       n/a                         -143
>
> FTdx-101D -133                       -137 -138                       -141
>
> IC-7851 -129                       n/a                         -138
>
> IC-7610 -128                       -130                       -142
>
> Flex 6400 -122                       -127                       -139
>
> IC-7300 -121                       -121                       -124
>
> FTdx-3000 -120                       n/a                         -121
>
> TS-890S                 -116 -119
> -127                       -139
>
> Rig @ 30 watts                   2 kHz offset        10 kHz
> offset      20 kHz offset      100 kHz offset
>
> FTdx-101D -129                       -134 -135                       -137
>
> K3S -132                       n/a                         -140
>
> IC-7851 -123                       n/a                         -133
>
> IC-7610 -122                       -124                       -127
>
> Flex 6400 -120                       -125 -137
>
> FTdx-3000 -117                       n/a                         -117
>
> TS-890S                 -112 -115
> -124                       -135
>
> IC-7300 -110                       -109                       -116
>
> *From:*[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Wes
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 03, 2019 10:32 AM
> *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> If TX IMD is the issue, K3 and K3S transmitters are a real mixed bag.
> My old K3 at 30 watts is fantastic, with IMD at all frequencies better
> than -40 dBc (ARRL method). The same radio at 10W is the worst of my
> two radios, except at 24 MHz where the K3 and K3S tie at -22 dBc.
>
> It's been hard to keep up with these measurements since the KLPA3A in
> the K3S has been replaced twice and the KPA3A is IIRC, on the fourth
> version.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
> On 11/3/2019 8:16 AM, Martin Sole wrote:
>
> I suspect the quality of the transmitter particularly with regard
> to its composite noise spectrum to be a large player. Some radios
> with high end receiver performance have rudimentary (I'm being
> kind) transmitter composite noise performance.
>
> See what NK7Z, NC0B and K9YC have written about this.
>
>
> Martin, HS0ZED
>
> On 03/11/2019 21:30, Mark Morin wrote:
>
> My experience is that the type of rig does make a difference
> for close coexistence. We’ve found on DxPeditions that an
> upgraded K3 with KPA500 and a Kenwood TS-590s also with
> KPA500, can coexist quite well with antennas about 300 ft
> apart. On most bands, we can operate SSB and CW simultaneously
> with tolerable QRM. Other times we have tried different
> high-end rigs in similar setup and found that opposite end of
> same-band operation was nearly impossible due to QRM. I
> suspect it’s mostly the receivers that makes the difference.
>
> Mark VA2MM
>
> _._,_._,_
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Bill K9YEQ

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to. The section in Rob's article on Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse".

Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997. The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 to 2019. I'd call this "worse".

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:

>
> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did
> you mean something else? I know this is semantics….
>
> 73,
>
> Bill
>
> K9YEQ
>
> https://wrj-tech.com/
>
> *From:*[hidden email] <[hidden email]> *On Behalf Of
> *Rob Sherwood
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:16 PM
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> The K3S is excellent in respect to transmit composite noise. Transmit
> IMD, on the other hand, is quite different at various power levels.
> The sweet spot is around 35 watts, but much worse at 12 watts and 100
> watts. Here is composite noise data. Hopefully the formatting will
> hold up.
>
> Rob, NC0B
>
> Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters values in dBc/Hz
>
> Rig @ 100 watts                2 kHz offset        10 kHz offset
> 20 kHz offset      100 kHz offset
>
> K3S -141                       n/a                         -143
>
> FTdx-101D -133                       -137 -138
> -141
>
> IC-7851 -129                       n/a                         -138
>
> IC-7610 -128                       -130                       -142
>
> Flex 6400 -122                       -127                       -139
>
> IC-7300 -121                       -121                       -124
>
> FTdx-3000 -120                       n/a                         -121
>
> TS-890S                 -116 -119
> -127                       -139
>
> Rig @ 30 watts                   2 kHz offset        10 kHz offset
> 20 kHz offset      100 kHz offset
>
> FTdx-101D -129                       -134 -135
> -137
>
> K3S -132                       n/a                         -140
>
> IC-7851 -123                       n/a                         -133
>
> IC-7610 -122                       -124                       -127
>
> Flex 6400 -120                       -125 -137
>
> FTdx-3000 -117                       n/a                         -117
>
> TS-890S                 -112 -115
> -124                       -135
>
> IC-7300 -110                       -109                       -116
>
> *From:*[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Wes
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 03, 2019 10:32 AM
> *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> If TX IMD is the issue, K3 and K3S transmitters are a real mixed bag.
> My old K3 at 30 watts is fantastic, with IMD at all frequencies better
> than -40 dBc (ARRL method). The same radio at 10W is the worst of my
> two radios, except at 24 MHz where the K3 and K3S tie at -22 dBc.
>
> It's been hard to keep up with these measurements since the KLPA3A in
> the K3S has been replaced twice and the KPA3A is IIRC, on the fourth
> version.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
> On 11/3/2019 8:16 AM, Martin Sole wrote:
>
> I suspect the quality of the transmitter particularly with regard
> to its composite noise spectrum to be a large player. Some radios
> with high end receiver performance have rudimentary (I'm being
> kind) transmitter composite noise performance.
>
> See what NK7Z, NC0B and K9YC have written about this.
>
>
> Martin, HS0ZED
>
> On 03/11/2019 21:30, Mark Morin wrote:
>
> My experience is that the type of rig does make a difference
> for close coexistence. We’ve found on DxPeditions that an
> upgraded K3 with KPA500 and a Kenwood TS-590s also with
> KPA500, can coexist quite well with antennas about 300 ft
> apart. On most bands, we can operate SSB and CW simultaneously
> with tolerable QRM. Other times we have tried different
> high-end rigs in similar setup and found that opposite end of
> same-band operation was nearly impossible due to QRM. I
> suspect it’s mostly the receivers that makes the difference.
>
> Mark VA2MM
>
> _._,_._,_
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
> View/Reply Online (#31452)
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> 20K3S%20to%20be%20discontinued>
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> [[hidden email]]
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> _._,_._,_

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wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)

We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method).

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.
>
> 73,
> Bill
> K9YEQ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to. The section in Rob's article on Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse".
>
> Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997. The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 to 2019. I'd call this "worse".
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:
>>
>> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did
>> you mean something else? I know this is semantics….
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> K9YEQ

Grant Youngman-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Well, that’s very good news. Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.

Grant NQ5T

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)
>
> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>

wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

The hardware is in place. Some firmware is required that will be phased in when it's ready.

Wayne

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, that’s very good news. Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)
>>
>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method).
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman-2

Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft!

On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:

> Well, that???s very good news. Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)
>>
>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method).
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

Note the TX SAMPLE input on the rear panel, clearly shown in the product brochure :)

Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft!
>
> On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>> Well, that???s very good news. Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.
>>
>> Grant NQ5T
>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)
>>>
>>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method).
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ

On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state
> transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.

The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing
the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power.

A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5
Ohms. Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is
operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion
(clipping/saturation) at each end of that range.

Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V
devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that
issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware.

Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station"
radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels. The
designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices. That level is
more than enough to drive an amplifier in the KPA-500 class to rated
output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be
improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems.

Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower
power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S
could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP
output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just
absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic
table).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.
>
> 73,
> Bill
> K9YEQ
>
>

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David Gilbert

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the
K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly
a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon everything being 12
volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 11/4/2019 1:37 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>
> The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing
> the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power.
>
> A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5
> Ohms. Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is
> operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion
> (clipping/saturation) at each end of that range.
>
> Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V
> devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that
> issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware.
>
> Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station"
> radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels. The
> designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices. That level is
> more than enough to drive an amplifier in the KPA-500 class to rated
> output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be
> improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems.
>
> Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower
> power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S
> could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP
> output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just
> absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic
> table).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV

Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles.

I run my power supplies at 14.2 v to be as clean as possible.

Rick NK7I

Smell Czech correction happens

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
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n7rxl

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to battery.

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ?
> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.

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Scott Manthe-2

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other
manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.

73,
Scott N9AA

On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
> the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
> strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
> everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.

If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.

Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?

Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).

Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:

> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other
> manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
>
> On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
>> the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
>> strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
>> everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Buck

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the
12V "portable" or "field" version.

k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll 8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com

On 11/4/2019 5:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> > Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> > portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> > They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
>
> If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
>
> Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
> of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
> ("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
> 60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
>
> Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
> an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
> regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
>
> Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
> at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
> of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
> available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
>> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
>> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of
>> other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
>>
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA
>>
>>
>> On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
>>> the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
>>> strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
>>> everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

Hi all,

We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)

Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>
> k4ia, Buck
> K3# 101
> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
> EasyWayHamBooks.com

______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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k6dgw

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Buck

Predecessors to the K3 have already reached the "unobtanium parts"
stage, K3 probably isn't too far behind. The US military logistics folks
will do a "lifetime buy" when parts for the airplane or tank are headed
for obsolete-ness. The US military never runs out of checks, of course.
[:-) I don't think Elecraft is in a position to buy up all the
soon-to-be-gone components on the market since K3 sales are likely to
fade significantly with the K4. My K3 is #642[U], I have upgraded it
some, but I'm still a little stunned at how long ago it was designed and
came to market.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 11/4/2019 3:07 PM, Buck wrote:
> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the
> 12V "portable" or "field" version.
>
> k4ia, Buck
> K3# 101
> Honor Roll 8B DXCC
> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by n7rxl

Build radios with internal supplies capable of 90V to 250V and the PA's
running 48 to 60 volts for 100 watt radios. The continued insistence
on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or portable type and
configured radios.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote:

> I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to battery.
>
>
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

W2xj

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> > Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> > portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> > They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
>
> If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
>
> Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
> of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
> ("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
> 60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
>
> Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
> an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
> regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
>
> Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
> at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
> of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
> available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA
>>> On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The continued insistence on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or portable type and configured radios.

Like the K4 :)

Wayne
N6KR

>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote:
>> I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to battery.
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

As stated earlier, a radio with internal power supply capable of 90V to
250V and run the PA devices from 48 to 60 volts for a 100 watt radios.
And for mobile or portable, a 12VDC to 120VAC converter, makes it a 12V
radio. I use a 1000 watt pure sinewave converter on our travel
trailer. The converter is about 1/2 the size of my P3 and cost about
$300. Thus not much more than the cost of a AC power supply and it is
CLEAN.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 11/4/2019 4:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: