Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay QRQ CW
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Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay at high speeds with
K3/P3 (Jerry Moore) Some thoughts and conjecture: Dropped Characters: At the default port speed of 38400 any errors in transmission could possibly result in dropped data rather than a resend depending on error handling..etc.. I've suggested to Marc to re-seat all physical connections in the signal path. Lowering the port speed resulted in no dropped characters. I don't have the gear to actually look at this but it could be caused by something as simple as a bad cable, bent cable..etc.. serial data is pretty simple but doesn't take much to trip it at high data rates. That's why there's usually some error detection/correction going on with some applications. Delay: My thoughts on this are that the P3 is probably polling the radio for status and the K3 interrupts the TX data stream to send status, frequency..etc...The P3 buffers the sending data until the polling cycle completes and goes back to sending. Without a lot more information and gear all of my ramblings are little more that guesses. The Delay could perhaps be affected by prioritizing the traffic, knowing how long a polling cycle takes, and maybe splitting the polling cycle in to smaller, more often sent, bits, rather than a chunk stream. Of course this only currently affects communications where a keyboard is sending high speed characters/CW to the P3 to be sent via the K3. The port speed should support those rates easily but HOW the conversation takes place may need to be tweaked a bit. Fixes for the Dropped Characters may be as easy to fix with a new cable or a shorter one. Just thinking out loud here. I enjoy helping solve technical issues. Jer / AE4PB ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay QRQ CW
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It turns out the delay in this case is due to the particular keyboard in use as
it has a sleep mode and wakes up slowly. 73, Eric /elecraft.com/ On 8/6/2015 10:58 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay at high speeds with > K3/P3 (Jerry Moore) > > Some thoughts and conjecture: > Dropped Characters: > At the default port speed of 38400 any errors in transmission could possibly > result in dropped data rather than a resend depending on error > handling..etc.. I've suggested to Marc to re-seat all physical connections > in the signal path. Lowering the port speed resulted in no dropped > characters. I don't have the gear to actually look at this but it could be > caused by something as simple as a bad cable, bent cable..etc.. serial data > is pretty simple but doesn't take much to trip it at high data rates. That's > why there's usually some error detection/correction going on with some > applications. > > Delay: > My thoughts on this are that the P3 is probably polling the radio for status > and the K3 interrupts the TX data stream to send status, > frequency..etc...The P3 buffers the sending data until the polling cycle > completes and goes back to sending. > > Without a lot more information and gear all of my ramblings are little more > that guesses. The Delay could perhaps be affected by prioritizing the > traffic, knowing how long a polling cycle takes, and maybe splitting the > polling cycle in to smaller, more often sent, bits, rather than a chunk > stream. Of course this only currently affects communications where a > keyboard is sending high speed characters/CW to the P3 to be sent via the > K3. The port speed should support those rates easily but HOW the > conversation takes place may need to be tweaked a bit. > > Fixes for the Dropped Characters may be as easy to fix with a new cable or a > shorter one. > > Just thinking out loud here. I enjoy helping solve technical issues. > > Jer / AE4PB > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by ae4pb
I've not heard from Marc on this but sent him an email asking if he had a
standard keyboard to try. From our earlier conversations it sounded like he had tried at least two different keyboards already. One wireless and one wired. I'm not doubting you Eric. Just wanting to look at this more closely. If you've worked with Marc and the issue is resolved that's great! Were we able to find out if the keyboard is also the cause of the dropped characters? Lowering the port bitrate resulted in fewer/no dropped characters but that shouldn't be necessary (from reading and searching it didn't sound possible to change the bitrate but apparently it is). For some reason I'm not getting emails from the reflector so I'm having to get them on the web.. Jer AE4PB >It turns out the delay in this case is due to the particular keyboard in use as >it has a sleep mode and wakes up slowly. > >73, > >Eric >/elecraft.com/ >On 8/6/2015 10:58 AM, ae4pb at carolinaheli.com <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> wrote: > Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay at high speeds with > K3/P3 (Jerry Moore) > > Some thoughts and conjecture: > Dropped Characters: > At the default port speed of 38400 any errors in transmission could possibly > result in dropped data rather than a resend depending on error > handling..etc.. I've suggested to Marc to re-seat all physical connections > in the signal path. Lowering the port speed resulted in no dropped > characters. I don't have the gear to actually look at this but it could be > caused by something as simple as a bad cable, bent cable..etc.. serial data > is pretty simple but doesn't take much to trip it at high data rates. That's > why there's usually some error detection/correction going on with some > applications. > > Delay: > My thoughts on this are that the P3 is probably polling the radio for status > and the K3 interrupts the TX data stream to send status, > frequency..etc...The P3 buffers the sending data until the polling cycle > completes and goes back to sending. > > Without a lot more information and gear all of my ramblings are little more > that guesses. The Delay could perhaps be affected by prioritizing the > traffic, knowing how long a polling cycle takes, and maybe splitting the > polling cycle in to smaller, more often sent, bits, rather than a chunk > stream. Of course this only currently affects communications where a > keyboard is sending high speed characters/CW to the P3 to be sent via the > K3. The port speed should support those rates easily but HOW the > conversation takes place may need to be tweaked a bit. > > Fixes for the Dropped Characters may be as easy to fix with a new cable or a > shorter one. > > Just thinking out loud here. I enjoy helping solve technical issues. > > Jer / AE4PB > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to eric.swartz at elecraft.com <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by ae4pb
Executive Summary
Issue: Dropped characters during high speed (over 60wpm) CW sent via Keyboard connected to the P3 and K3. Approximately 4s Pause in transmission at around each approximately 130 character mark. Testing: 1. Several different keyboards (at least 4) have been used to test. All keyboards exhibit the same issues. 2. Lower the port speed on the P3 - should have NO effect on communications between the P3 and K3, however, the issue with dropped characters appears to have resolved. I believe the P3 firmware is suspect as a result. 3. Reseat all internal/external connections. No apparent effect. Next Steps: 1. Leave the P3 port speed settings low if that works around the dropped character issue. This shouldn't affect the P3 to K3 communications. 2. Due to the high cost of shipping parts back and forth to CA from Marc's QTH I'm suggesting he try a new cable. 3. IF we are not able to try a new cable OR a new cable doesn't work then I'm suggesting we snoop/monitor the serial data steam between the P3 and K3 to determine where the delay is being initiated from. Sending Marc's email to the reflector.. From Marc> I saw that comment, too, but Eric is completely wrong. If he saw the problem in action he'd know that it occurs long after the keyboard is fully active. Paul and I have been in extended e-mail conversations. First thing he said is that the baud rate setting on the K3 and on the P3 has no effect on the baud rate used for inter-device communication. Those baud rates only apply to the "host" connection, that is a pc connected to one or the other of the devices. So changing the baud rate on the P3 to 4800, which had a dramatic effect on dropped character rates, did not change the comm rate from P3 to K3. That rate is always 38,400. We also confirmed that a "macro" stored in the SVGA board by saving it from the keyboard will be dumped to the K3 without error. However, a one-letter macro will be dropped when repeatedly sent from the keyboard (by typing the macro name, for example [ALT]m). Thus we're sure that the character drop occurs between keyboard and SVGA board. I use 4 different keyboards for testing, 2 wireless and 2 wired. One of the wired boards, commonly used for Raspberry Pi projects, is pretty junky and tough to use, but none of the keyboards avoids the dropped character problem. All this suggests that there may be simply poor contact at the USB connector on the P3. The RS-232 data flow is almost undoubtedly the culprit. When I started programming full time (I leased from Hewlett Packard a HP9820 and the single pen plotter) in 1972, I pretty much put away the soldering iron. Only many years later when we started using a bank of modems for Internet connections and started using Ethernet internally did I do any sort of building and that was all just cable work. Oh, once in a while I'd change boards in a box or clean finger contacts, but nothing like the early days. So this retirement gig is different. In fact just this morning I ordered a set of Xcelite drivers. One more step backwards toward my youth. I did own and manage a consumer electronics repair business way back when, but ended up hiring repair people and training them. I was more interested in writing programs to manage bookkeeping than I was repairing stuff. It did teach me that the best tools are really good investments, though. Prior to that I used cheap tools, but our repairs were done faster, more profitably, when we used the best tools and the best repair parts. Thanks for the cell number. I'll put it in my contacts list and try to keep you up-to-date. But ignore Eric's statement. It was completely out of context and may even refer to some other thread. More likely, though, he was just remembering conversations among their techs when my P3/SVGA was in the shop and they couldn't reproduce any problems *except* the periodic delay. -- Marc From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 8:10 AM To: '[hidden email]' Cc: '[hidden email]' Subject: [Elecraft] Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay QRQ CW I've not heard from Marc on this but sent him an email asking if he had a standard keyboard to try. From our earlier conversations it sounded like he had tried at least two different keyboards already. One wireless and one wired. I'm not doubting you Eric. Just wanting to look at this more closely. If you've worked with Marc and the issue is resolved that's great! Were we able to find out if the keyboard is also the cause of the dropped characters? Lowering the port bitrate resulted in fewer/no dropped characters but that shouldn't be necessary (from reading and searching it didn't sound possible to change the bitrate but apparently it is). For some reason I'm not getting emails from the reflector so I'm having to get them on the web.. Jer AE4PB >It turns out the delay in this case is due to the particular keyboard in use as >it has a sleep mode and wakes up slowly. > >73, > >Eric >/elecraft.com/ >On 8/6/2015 10:58 AM, ae4pb at carolinaheli.com <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> wrote: > Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay at high speeds with > K3/P3 (Jerry Moore) > > Some thoughts and conjecture: > Dropped Characters: > At the default port speed of 38400 any errors in transmission could possibly > result in dropped data rather than a resend depending on error > handling..etc.. I've suggested to Marc to re-seat all physical connections > in the signal path. Lowering the port speed resulted in no dropped > characters. I don't have the gear to actually look at this but it could be > caused by something as simple as a bad cable, bent cable..etc.. serial data > is pretty simple but doesn't take much to trip it at high data rates. That's > why there's usually some error detection/correction going on with some > applications. > > Delay: > My thoughts on this are that the P3 is probably polling the radio for status > and the K3 interrupts the TX data stream to send status, > frequency..etc...The P3 buffers the sending data until the polling cycle > completes and goes back to sending. > > Without a lot more information and gear all of my ramblings are little more > that guesses. The Delay could perhaps be affected by prioritizing the > traffic, knowing how long a polling cycle takes, and maybe splitting the > polling cycle in to smaller, more often sent, bits, rather than a chunk > stream. Of course this only currently affects communications where a > keyboard is sending high speed characters/CW to the P3 to be sent via the > K3. The port speed should support those rates easily but HOW the > conversation takes place may need to be tweaked a bit. > > Fixes for the Dropped Characters may be as easy to fix with a new cable or a > shorter one. > > Just thinking out loud here. I enjoy helping solve technical issues. > > Jer / AE4PB > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to eric.swartz at elecraft.com <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay QRQ CW
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In reply to this post by ae4pb
Jer;
I need to call attention to your statement " Were we > able to find out if the keyboard is also the cause of the dropped > characters?" No, the keyboard cannot be the cause of the dropped characters becausethe characters are being received, and displayed in the transmit portion of the monitor. I think you said you are a potential customer, so you probably are learning howthis all happens. If the keyboard was the cause of dropped characters, they would not be showing on the screen, which is much like typing an email. To go one step further, when the P3/SVGA is sending the characters to the K3, it takesa group at a time and changes the color of the characters. (It seems like they are beingput into a buffer, because it is changing the color ahead of what is being transmitted.) As long as we stay ahead of the color change, we can make corrections to our message, or type as it is being sent so the far station doesn't need to wait. This is a great tool, in my opinion. Too good to go un-used because of a glitch. The Elecraft folks have it thought out well. You may like to download the manual. Dick, n0ce > From: [hidden email] > To: [hidden email] > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:09:41 -0400 > Subject: [Elecraft] Re: High Speed CW issue with dropped characters/delay QRQ CW > > I've not heard from Marc on this but sent him an email asking if he had a > standard keyboard to try. From our earlier conversations it sounded like he > had tried at least two different keyboards already. One wireless and one > wired. I'm not doubting you Eric. Just wanting to look at this more closely. > If you've worked with Marc and the issue is resolved that's great! Were we > able to find out if the keyboard is also the cause of the dropped > characters? Lowering the port bitrate resulted in fewer/no dropped > characters but that shouldn't be necessary (from reading and searching it > didn't sound possible to change the bitrate but apparently it is). > > > > For some reason I'm not getting emails from the reflector so I'm having to > get them on the web.. > > Jer > > AE4PB ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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