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Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

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Mike Morrow-3

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

> ... perhaps it is time for Elecraft to start offering some "big boy" kits
> that make full use of SMTs and other modern components.

Some would likely take exception to that strong implication that one is
not a "big boy" (whatever that means) if one rejects significant SMT hand application. I've been a ham almost 50 years, commercial radiotelegraph licensed until standards dropped 20 years ago, and an electrical engineer
for 40 years...is that "big boy" enough? Perhaps not...yet I'm not hesitant to state that hand-application of SMT components is a "half-vast" :-) misapplication of technique to devices designed solely for machine placement. It should never be required in any step of production of a commercial
product, even for hams. So, to any enterprise proposing to *sell* something
that requires significant SMT hand-application, I would *not* give such a
product even a moment's consideration. OTOH, supply the PCBs with SMTs
pre-fixed by machine as designed, and I'll likely be very interested.

> Any serious ham should have a good digital 'scope, and a hot air solder
> station with a syringe of solder paste (which can be bought new for less
> than $100).

Well...there you go again. I suspect most of us will just *never* qualify
as a N4OI "serious ham", for lack of meeting these canonical and doubtless
universally-recognized requirements for the title. :-)

73,
Mike / KK5F

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Jim Low man

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT
components being intended for robotic assembly.

Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would
get if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature
components. Too much room for error.

While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required
(although I hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had
even one SMT device, I would not have purchased one.

72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 7/20/2014 9:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

>> ... perhaps it is time for Elecraft to start offering some "big boy" kits
>> that make full use of SMTs and other modern components.
> Some would likely take exception to that strong implication that one is
> not a "big boy" (whatever that means) if one rejects significant SMT hand application. I've been a ham almost 50 years, commercial radiotelegraph licensed until standards dropped 20 years ago, and an electrical engineer
> for 40 years...is that "big boy" enough? Perhaps not...yet I'm not hesitant to state that hand-application of SMT components is a "half-vast" :-) misapplication of technique to devices designed solely for machine placement. It should never be required in any step of production of a commercial
> product, even for hams. So, to any enterprise proposing to *sell* something
> that requires significant SMT hand-application, I would *not* give such a
> product even a moment's consideration. OTOH, supply the PCBs with SMTs
> pre-fixed by machine as designed, and I'll likely be very interested.
>
>> Any serious ham should have a good digital 'scope, and a hot air solder
>> station with a syringe of solder paste (which can be bought new for less
>> than $100).
> Well...there you go again. I suspect most of us will just *never* qualify
> as a N4OI "serious ham", for lack of meeting these canonical and doubtless
> universally-recognized requirements for the title. :-)
>
> 73,
> Mike / KK5F
>
>

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Bruce Beford-4

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there are
SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT based
projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for some
components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those offered by
KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among others.

No, they are not for everyone. But- I am glad they are offered for those of
us who can and do enjoy building them. It is not nearly as difficult as some
seem to believe it to be. Different techniques are required, that's all. In
many cases, a much more compact package, or an otherwise impossible project
is the result.

Bruce/N1RX

> I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT
> components being intended for robotic assembly.

> Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would
> get if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature
> components. Too much room for error.

> While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required
> (although I hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had
> even one SMT device, I would not have purchased one.

> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

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rgconner

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by Jim Low man

Support your local "maker space", they will likely have the gear and knowledge to do SMT… and probably a bunch of young guys that have never seen HAM before or know the potential.

On Jul 20, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Jim Lowman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT components being intended for robotic assembly.
>
> Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would get if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature components. Too much room for error.
>
> While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required (although I hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had even one SMT device, I would not have purchased one.
>
> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW
>
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Jim Low man

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by Bruce Beford-4

More power to you and others who have the patience, equipment and
eyesight/hand coordination to work with SMT devices, Bruce.
I think what many of us are saying, is that type of construction is not
for everyone.

I have a nice Weller soldering station and a variety of tips for it, as
well as enough 63/37 solder to last a lifetime.
Somehow it fell into my tool pouch from time to time, when I was in the
Air Force working on air traffic control radar systems. :-)
I'd rather spend my money on other items for the shack, than for the
tools necessary to do SMT work.

Maybe if there hadn't been the inference that we weren't "big boys" if
we didn't build kits with SMT devices, this thread may have passed,
unnoticed.

73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 7/20/2014 4:32 PM, Bruce Beford wrote:

> While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there are
> SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT based
> projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for some
> components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those offered by
> KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among others.
>
> No, they are not for everyone. But- I am glad they are offered for those of
> us who can and do enjoy building them. It is not nearly as difficult as some
> seem to believe it to be. Different techniques are required, that's all. In
> many cases, a much more compact package, or an otherwise impossible project
> is the result.
>
> Bruce/N1RX
>
>

vk2rq

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

My first experience with SMT was building a softrock multiband
receiver kit. It is a hybrid through hole/SMT kit, with few different
types of SMT devices. I really enjoyed building it, and learned a lot
from it, and would recommend it to anyone wanting to dip their toe in
the water, so to speak.

ObElecraftContent:
Elecraft does have a kit where you have to solder an SMT device -- the
wideband noise generator. I got to practice twice with that one: once
when I first build it, and then again after I have a little accident
with a transmitter :-) I was going to try to remove the damaged
component with a hot air rework station that I picked up recently, but
with the plastic battery holder etc. nearby, thought better of it and
just snipped off the fried component with my side cutters, with no
dramas.
73, Matt VK2RQ
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Bruce Beford-4

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

I build all my SMT projects with my 30+ year old Weller WTCPT iron, and an
Optivisor. Have been for years now.
Bruce/N1RX

Jim/ AD6CW wrote:More power to you and others who have the patience,
equipment and
eyesight/hand coordination to work with SMT devices, Bruce.
I think what many of us are saying, is that type of construction is not
for everyone.

I have a nice Weller soldering station and a variety of tips for it, as
well as enough 63/37 solder to last a lifetime.
Somehow it fell into my tool pouch from time to time, when I was in the
Air Force working on air traffic control radar systems. :-)
I'd rather spend my money on other items for the shack, than for the
tools necessary to do SMT work.

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by vk2rq

Oh yes, that! I didn't think of it as SMT because
it has four leads. Took me a while to figure out
how to orient it, though. I sneezed and almost
lost that critter.

And I have two spares -- so mine is likely to last
forever.

Phil W7OX

On 7/20/14, 5:30 PM, Matt Maguire wrote:

> ObElecraftContent:
> Elecraft does have a kit where you have to solder an SMT device -- the
> wideband noise generator. I got to practice twice with that one: once
> when I first build it, and then again after I have a little accident
> with a transmitter :-) I was going to try to remove the damaged
> component with a hot air rework station that I picked up recently, but
> with the plastic battery holder etc. nearby, thought better of it and
> just snipped off the fried component with my side cutters, with no
> dramas.
> 73, Matt VK2RQ

N4OI - Ken

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Wow -- I kind of touched a nerve with the "big boy" reference! I recall this term was used by Dave Benson in some of his SWL kit documentation. It merely referred the reader to a stripped-down section of the instructions if one wanted to bypass the lengthy, step-by-step narrative... My point is that manufacturers, such as the premier innovator, Elecraft, should not be constrained in their product designs by offering only through-hole or solder-only kits. Why, even TenTec has leap-frogged the industry in this area with their open-source, Rebel QRP platforms!

I apologize for the poor use of words. As a relative newcomer to ham radio, it was not my intention to denigrate anyone on this reflector - especially those who have vastly superior technical knowledge and capabilities.

73

Humberto

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

Am 21.07.2014 14:40, schrieb N4OI - Ken:

> Wow -- I kind of touched a nerve with the "big boy" reference! I recall this
> term was used by Dave Benson in some of his SWL kit documentation. It
> merely referred the reader to a stripped-down section of the instructions if
> one wanted to bypass the lengthy, step-by-step narrative... My point is
> that manufacturers, such as the premier innovator, Elecraft, should not be
> constrained in their product designs by offering only through-hole or
> solder-only kits. Why, even TenTec has leap-frogged the industry in this
> area with their open-source, Rebel QRP platforms!
>
> I apologize for the poor use of words. As a relative newcomer to ham radio,
> it was not my intention to denigrate anyone on this reflector - especially
> those who have vastly superior technical knowledge and capabilities.
>
> 73
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Re-K1-4-4-band-version-gone-Hand-SMT-Never-tp7591431p7591475.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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>

--
Cumprimentos / Freundliche Grüsse / Best regards

Herbert W. Schulte

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wayne burdick

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

Administrator

In reply to this post by N4OI - Ken

Simple SMD kits are fine because the success rate can be high and the investment risk on the part of both the customer and the manufacturer is low. We may offer such kits in the future, though we don't have any present plans for these.

The percentage of builders who could complete a complex SMD kit, or have the skill and test gear to troubleshoot them, is small. Kitting and documentation alone would be a huge investment for us, not to mention customer support. Many such kits would never be finished, or repaired, or would have mysterious unresolved issues. Perceived quality would suffer and frustration levels would go way up.

One thing Elecraft is known for is packing a lot of functionality into a small space. This requires the use of very fine-pitch TQFP IC packages as well as 0603 passives (even 0402 in a few cases). To make SMD kits viable at all we'd have to use much larger-pitch parts. This would force products to be larger, heavier, and more expensive.

Even though a small percentage of customers would be willing and able, this simply isn't an economically viable direction for us.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Humberto

Re: K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)

In reply to this post by N4OI - Ken

Hi all,

as I started that idea with the SMT components, I will try to moderate a
little bit.
I am over sixty and so I know the problems with needs of special glasses
to handle the
SMT components down at 603 or 402 ( 1 x 0.5mm).

So my idea is, not designing without SMT, but for those who like it,
provide kits with
premounted SMT , so that these users may build their kit without the
needToday to handle and
solder SMT "sand".

Today in some cases the "wanted" parts are no longer available as THT.
In the future this will be
the case for more and more parts. The most evil thing is, that some very
interesting part are even
today only available as BGA SMT which needs the handling by special
tools or machine just
for the placement ?!

So let's have fun and let's not forget to prepare a way for those which
can not or are unwilling to
solder SMT

Humberto

. Am 21.07.2014 14:40, schrieb N4OI - Ken: