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Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

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Bill Frantz

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

I do remember sometime spring/summer/autumn of 1960 getting on
the Long Island Railroad, riding into New York, and then taking
the subway much further south than I had ever been before. I
walked into the office and was greeted by a gruff examiner who
gave me the tests. I managed to pass both the 5 WPM and the
novice written and ended up as WV2NOO. Oh, and the gruff
examiner congratulated me on passing.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 5/1/20 at 1:42 PM, [hidden email] (Phil Kane) wrote:

>Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
>motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
>the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
>passage that really had no foundation in reality.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Can't fix stupid, but | Periwinkle
(408)348-7900 | duct tape can muffle the| 150 Rivermead
Road #235
www.pwpconsult.com | sound... - Bill Liebman | Peterborough, NY 03458

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rcbenedict1545

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Took novice mail exam 1959, Kn1LHN in Vermont Could not do 13 so got tech license. Tried repeatedly to make 13 until 1975. FCC made agreement with civil service for them to do testing. I was in Youngstown TV chief. Took test every other month maybe 4 times. Federal building high ceiling cassette tape playing code. Had to copy one minute without error. Finally examiner said I passed. Almost cried. So did I really pass it or did he feel sorry for me?
Those of us with attention issues have a lot of trouble copying code. Yes I know the code just can’t copy more then a few words
Ray
W8LYJ

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2020, at 18:33, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I do remember sometime spring/summer/autumn of 1960 getting on the Long Island Railroad, riding into New York, and then taking the subway much further south than I had ever been before. I walked into the office and was greeted by a gruff examiner who gave me the tests. I managed to pass both the 5 WPM and the novice written and ended up as WV2NOO. Oh, and the gruff examiner congratulated me on passing.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
>> On 5/1/20 at 1:42 PM, [hidden email] (Phil Kane) wrote:
>>
>> Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
>> motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
>> the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
>> passage that really had no foundation in reality.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz | Can't fix stupid, but | Periwinkle
> (408)348-7900 | duct tape can muffle the| 150 Rivermead Road #235
> www.pwpconsult.com | sound... - Bill Liebman | Peterborough, NY 03458
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Kidder, George

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Just as it fell out, I took all my tests from the FCC at 1600 Custom
House, Boston (was living in the Ct. River Valley at the time.) For the
novice, I was printing in block capitals on yellow lined paper, and
doing fine until I heard a character I didn't recognize, and panic set
in - shortly relieved by the machine stopping - the character was AR or
AS (forget which) but wasn't part of the test at all! I was a Soph. in
college at the time, and that is a lousy time to get a license which
lasted only a year, so I converted to a Tech when it expired - didn't
have to be tested again for code.

Some years later, I finally got up to 13 WPM - must have been
unremarkable, as I don't really remember it. Then I got tired of trying
to remember where all the sub-band edges were, and decided to go for the
Extra. Same room. They were supposed to administer the code first and
the written afterwards, but when he fired up the "Instructograph" (paper
tape with dots and dashes punched through it) it wouldn't work. So he
gave me the written (which I passed easily) while he worked on the
Instructograph. Never did get it to work, so gave me the code test with
a portable machine that wasn't too much better. I'm not really sure
that I was able to copy a full minute of text, but given all the
problems (and the fact that he was giving the tests out of order) he
took pity on me and passed me. So I got an Extra instead of the
Advanced. It was a good 20 years before I got really "into" CW, tho.

George, W3HBM

On 5/1/2020 8:54 PM, Raymond wrote:

> [This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>
> Took novice mail exam 1959, Kn1LHN in Vermont Could not do 13 so got tech license. Tried repeatedly to make 13 until 1975. FCC made agreement with civil service for them to do testing. I was in Youngstown TV chief. Took test every other month maybe 4 times. Federal building high ceiling cassette tape playing code. Had to copy one minute without error. Finally examiner said I passed. Almost cried. So did I really pass it or did he feel sorry for me?
> Those of us with attention issues have a lot of trouble copying code. Yes I know the code just can’t copy more then a few words
> Ray
> W8LYJ
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 1, 2020, at 18:33, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I do remember sometime spring/summer/autumn of 1960 getting on the Long Island Railroad, riding into New York, and then taking the subway much further south than I had ever been before. I walked into the office and was greeted by a gruff examiner who gave me the tests. I managed to pass both the 5 WPM and the novice written and ended up as WV2NOO. Oh, and the gruff examiner congratulated me on passing.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>>> On 5/1/20 at 1:42 PM, [hidden email] (Phil Kane) wrote:
>>>
>>> Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
>>> motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
>>> the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
>>> passage that really had no foundation in reality.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Bill Frantz | Can't fix stupid, but | Periwinkle
>> (408)348-7900 | duct tape can muffle the| 150 Rivermead Road #235
>> www.pwpconsult.com | sound... - Bill Liebman | Peterborough, NY 03458
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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Frank Scolaro

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Is Finkleman the guy with the 'half glasses' ?? Took my test from
him in 1966, as did my father just before WWII...

73,
Frank, W2YK

At 01:59 AM 5/1/2020, Steve Lawrence via Elecraft wrote:

>FCC office in lower Manhattan. Finkleman's exam chairs were school
>desk writing arm chairs. The writing surface had grooves everywhere.
>They were the size of the Grand Canyon. You were given a very thin
>sheet of paper and a dull pencil to write your copy. I could barely
>get the pencil out of a groove to write the next letter. Felt deliberate.
>
>73 - Steve WB6RSE
>
>
>
>On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying
>to adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.
>
>73,
>Victor, 4X6GP
>Rehovot, Israel
>Formerly K2VCO
>CWops no. 5
>http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
> > The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to
> the desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Pictures here;

> http://www.wb2lqf.com/amateur-radio-and-me/the-legendary-mr-charles-finkleman <http://www.wb2lqf.com/amateur-radio-and-me/the-legendary-mr-charles-finkleman>

73 - Steve WB6RSE

> On May 1, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Frank Scolaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is Finkleman the guy with the 'half glasses' ?? Took my test from him in 1966, as did my father just before WWII...
>
> 73,
> Frank, W2YK
>
>
>
> At 01:59 AM 5/1/2020, Steve Lawrence via Elecraft wrote:
>> FCC office in lower Manhattan. Finkleman's exam chairs were school desk writing arm chairs. The writing surface had grooves everywhere. They were the size of the Grand Canyon. You were given a very thin sheet of paper and a dull pencil to write your copy. I could barely get the pencil out of a groove to write the next letter. Felt deliberate.
>>
>> 73 - Steve WB6RSE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying to adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.
>>
>> 73,
>> Victor, 4X6GP
>> Rehovot, Israel
>> Formerly K2VCO
>> CWops no. 5
>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>> On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> > The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)
>>

Drew AF2Z

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Mike,

I also failed the code test for the T2 on my first go round. Can't
remember if it was the groups or plain text. At the time you had to wait
some period, 6 months?, before you could sit for the test again, unless
you were granted a waiver. I had recently received my Extra (which I had
sat for in preparation for the T2 test). I applied for the waiver,
mentioning that fact in my letter to the FCC. The waiver was granted,
and I quickly retook the test and passed.

As for the T1, I took it as soon as I was eligible and passed on first
try. By then I'd had lots of practice passing traffic under "adverse"
conditions at sea.

My real trial by fire was working A9M in Bahrain as an apprentice while
sailing the Indian Ocean. A9M was a high traffic station with a
complicated working arrangement. Several of their operators shared a
common working frequency; you would be sending traffic to your operator
when another operator would break the station they were working; you
were expected to know that the break was not for you and to continue
sending, otherwise your operator would come on and tell you to keep
sending.

Plus, A9M had one of the worst CW operators I ever heard-- complete lack
of rhythm, unpredictable spacing, and cranky as hell; I guess he was
tired of people not being able to copy his lousy fist. It was quite
stressful for a new op-- a mistake copying port instructions or cargo
message could mean big bux lost for the shipping company.

FWIW, I learned the code from an old Army Signal Corps course on 78 rpm
phonograph records, featured in a youtube video on my QRZ page.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 04/30/20 19:50, Mike Morrow wrote:

> Fred,
>
> The Radiotelegraph Second Class license required send and receive at 20 wpm Plain Language and 16 wpm Code Groups with no errors for one minute during the five minute test. The First Class license had the same written elements (1, 2, 5, 6) as the Second Class license but the Morse test was 25 wpm Plain Language and 20 wpm Code Groups, plus a six-month service requirement at stations open to public correspondence. (That "public correspondence" service requirement kept many operators with decades of commercial Morse service from ever getting a First Class license. However, every maritime Morse station was defined as open to public correspondence even if it was on a freighter and never had any such traffic.)
>
> The rare Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement to Second or First Class licenses required the same Morse exam as the First Class license.
>
> IIRC, the FCC required use of hand copy and straight key for Second Class, but allowed typewritter and bug for the First Class tests.
>
> After I left the US Navy as a submarine officer more than 40 years ago, I decided I'd like to try my hand as a maritime radio officer before that job disappeared. (I was one of the few Navy people that loved going to sea.) I very much found the seemingly slow 16-wpm Code Group test significantly more difficult for test-taking purposes (when one is still developing skills) than Plain Language. As few as five errors in the 400 character test could prevent getting the required 80 consecutive error-free characters. It took me three 400-mile round trips to the Kansas City Field Office, only because of the 16 wom Code Group test. The 20 wpm Plain Language test (given first) was always child's play. I know that with practice and a mill an automatic unthinking response soon develops, but I did not get that far.
>
> For many years the FCC waived the Amateur Extra Morse exam for an applicant if he had held a commercial radiotelegraph license. In the mid-1990s, the FCC started waiving the Radiotelegraph Second Class Morse exams for an applicant holding an Amateur Extra Class license. That was a very signicicant relaxation of test standards for the commercial Radiotelegraph license, but by then there wasn't much call for the license.
>
> I never did get into Radio Officer work because a few months after licensing a new but permanent medical condition disqualified me from Safety-of-Life-at-Sea (SOLAS) duties. During Desert Storm/Desert Shield the US began reactivating enough old US-flag merchant vessels that one of the Radio Officer associations solicited license holders for a short paid training program and employment as new Radio Officers. Even 30 years ago there weren't many newcomers interested in starting a obvious dead end career, but 15 years earlier I'd have sent in my application if medically qualified.
>
> WRT Phil's comments below, it surprises me when hams claim adamantly that their Morse test was code groups. I attribute that to fading memory. Similary, it was recently stated that a Broadcast Endorsement was attained after earning the Radiotelephone First Class license. The Broadcast Endorsement was granted only to Third Class license holders to show that the announcer (with Third Class license) also had knowledge to serve as transmitter attendant (with Broadcast Endorsement) at small broadcast stations. Memory plays tricks on us old people. :-)
>
> Mike / KK5F
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Apr 30, 2020 12:35 PM
>>
>> Why were code tests with groups almost always at a slower speed than
>> plain text?
>>
>> I had to copy 5-character groups at 16 [I think], and plain text at 20
>> [I also think ... might have been 25, it was a very long time ago] for
>> the 2nd Telegraph. I've never sat a military circuit to copy groups,
>> all my experience with groups was practice, the test, and WX reports
>> which sort of approximate groups. However, I find groups to be easier
>> copy than plain text, especially on a mill of teletype tape perforator
>> keyboard. The transition to "Ear-to-Fingers" mode with nothing passing
>> through brain is almost instantaneous and permanent for the duration.
>> With plain language text, I'll sometimes rouse from that state, try to
>> make sense of what I'm copying and have to catch up.
>>
>> Just curious, lots of folks here here have copied groups for a living
>> and might know the answer. Incidentally, Jettie Hill, W6RFF [SK], once
>> told me that in WW2, he had to learn to sight-read inked tape at 45 or
>> 50 WPM. I think that would have caged my eyeballs. [:=)
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>> On 4/30/2020 9:36 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/29/2020 10:31 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>> CW test had been downgraded to a multiple question exam about plain
>>>> language text message vs the five mixed character groups back in Detroit.
>>>
>>> The ham CW test was always plain language text. 5-character groups were
>>> only for the Radiotelegraph CW exams.
>>>
>>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>>> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
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Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Frank Scolaro

On 5/1/2020 9:46 PM, Frank Scolaro wrote:

> Is Finkleman the guy with the 'half glasses' ?? Took my test from him
> in 1966, as did my father just before WWII...

And the bow-tie - that's him.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
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