Elecraft

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Classic

List

Threaded

27 messages Options

Mike Morrow-3

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Fred,

The Radiotelegraph Second Class license required send and receive at 20 wpm Plain Language and 16 wpm Code Groups with no errors for one minute during the five minute test. The First Class license had the same written elements (1, 2, 5, 6) as the Second Class license but the Morse test was 25 wpm Plain Language and 20 wpm Code Groups, plus a six-month service requirement at stations open to public correspondence. (That "public correspondence" service requirement kept many operators with decades of commercial Morse service from ever getting a First Class license. However, every maritime Morse station was defined as open to public correspondence even if it was on a freighter and never had any such traffic.)

The rare Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement to Second or First Class licenses required the same Morse exam as the First Class license.

IIRC, the FCC required use of hand copy and straight key for Second Class, but allowed typewritter and bug for the First Class tests.

After I left the US Navy as a submarine officer more than 40 years ago, I decided I'd like to try my hand as a maritime radio officer before that job disappeared. (I was one of the few Navy people that loved going to sea.) I very much found the seemingly slow 16-wpm Code Group test significantly more difficult for test-taking purposes (when one is still developing skills) than Plain Language. As few as five errors in the 400 character test could prevent getting the required 80 consecutive error-free characters. It took me three 400-mile round trips to the Kansas City Field Office, only because of the 16 wom Code Group test. The 20 wpm Plain Language test (given first) was always child's play. I know that with practice and a mill an automatic unthinking response soon develops, but I did not get that far.

For many years the FCC waived the Amateur Extra Morse exam for an applicant if he had held a commercial radiotelegraph license. In the mid-1990s, the FCC started waiving the Radiotelegraph Second Class Morse exams for an applicant holding an Amateur Extra Class license. That was a very signicicant relaxation of test standards for the commercial Radiotelegraph license, but by then there wasn't much call for the license.

I never did get into Radio Officer work because a few months after licensing a new but permanent medical condition disqualified me from Safety-of-Life-at-Sea (SOLAS) duties. During Desert Storm/Desert Shield the US began reactivating enough old US-flag merchant vessels that one of the Radio Officer associations solicited license holders for a short paid training program and employment as new Radio Officers. Even 30 years ago there weren't many newcomers interested in starting a obvious dead end career, but 15 years earlier I'd have sent in my application if medically qualified.

WRT Phil's comments below, it surprises me when hams claim adamantly that their Morse test was code groups. I attribute that to fading memory. Similary, it was recently stated that a Broadcast Endorsement was attained after earning the Radiotelephone First Class license. The Broadcast Endorsement was granted only to Third Class license holders to show that the announcer (with Third Class license) also had knowledge to serve as transmitter attendant (with Broadcast Endorsement) at small broadcast stations. Memory plays tricks on us old people. :-)

Mike / KK5F

-----Original Message-----

>From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Apr 30, 2020 12:35 PM
>
>Why were code tests with groups almost always at a slower speed than
>plain text?
>
>I had to copy 5-character groups at 16 [I think], and plain text at 20
>[I also think ... might have been 25, it was a very long time ago] for
>the 2nd Telegraph. I've never sat a military circuit to copy groups,
>all my experience with groups was practice, the test, and WX reports
>which sort of approximate groups. However, I find groups to be easier
>copy than plain text, especially on a mill of teletype tape perforator
>keyboard. The transition to "Ear-to-Fingers" mode with nothing passing
>through brain is almost instantaneous and permanent for the duration.
>With plain language text, I'll sometimes rouse from that state, try to
>make sense of what I'm copying and have to catch up.
>
>Just curious, lots of folks here here have copied groups for a living
>and might know the answer. Incidentally, Jettie Hill, W6RFF [SK], once
>told me that in WW2, he had to learn to sight-read inked tape at 45 or
>50 WPM. I think that would have caged my eyeballs. [:=)
>
>73,
>Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>Sparks NV DM09dn
>Washoe County
>
>On 4/30/2020 9:36 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/2020 10:31 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
>>
>>> CW test had been downgraded to a multiple question exam about plain
>>> language text message vs the five mixed character groups back in Detroit.
>>
>> The ham CW test was always plain language text. 5-character groups were
>> only for the Radiotelegraph CW exams.
>>
>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Mike...

When I tested for my general, vintage 1960, I had to receive a five
minute plain text code message with no errors for one minute. But, I
don't remember having to send anything (I did have to draw the Colpits
oscillator, HI). And, for sure, no 5-letter groups. I was scared to
death, but managed to get through it. You're right about the tricks of
memory after 80 or so years. After a long hiatus, I started out again at
age 50, and the code was much easier. I think computer programs made
learning code easier, or at least it did for me.

...robert

On 5/1/2020 12:50 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

> Fred,
>
> The Radiotelegraph Second Class license required send and receive at 20 wpm Plain Language and 16 wpm Code Groups with no errors for one minute during the five minute test. The First Class license had the same written elements (1, 2, 5, 6) as the Second Class license but the Morse test was 25 wpm Plain Language and 20 wpm Code Groups, plus a six-month service requirement at stations open to public correspondence. (That "public correspondence" service requirement kept many operators with decades of commercial Morse service from ever getting a First Class license. However, every maritime Morse station was defined as open to public correspondence even if it was on a freighter and never had any such traffic.)
>
> The rare Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement to Second or First Class licenses required the same Morse exam as the First Class license.
>
> IIRC, the FCC required use of hand copy and straight key for Second Class, but allowed typewritter and bug for the First Class tests.
>
> After I left the US Navy as a submarine officer more than 40 years ago, I decided I'd like to try my hand as a maritime radio officer before that job disappeared. (I was one of the few Navy people that loved going to sea.) I very much found the seemingly slow 16-wpm Code Group test significantly more difficult for test-taking purposes (when one is still developing skills) than Plain Language. As few as five errors in the 400 character test could prevent getting the required 80 consecutive error-free characters. It took me three 400-mile round trips to the Kansas City Field Office, only because of the 16 wom Code Group test. The 20 wpm Plain Language test (given first) was always child's play. I know that with practice and a mill an automatic unthinking response soon develops, but I did not get that far.
>
> For many years the FCC waived the Amateur Extra Morse exam for an applicant if he had held a commercial radiotelegraph license. In the mid-1990s, the FCC started waiving the Radiotelegraph Second Class Morse exams for an applicant holding an Amateur Extra Class license. That was a very signicicant relaxation of test standards for the commercial Radiotelegraph license, but by then there wasn't much call for the license.
>
> I never did get into Radio Officer work because a few months after licensing a new but permanent medical condition disqualified me from Safety-of-Life-at-Sea (SOLAS) duties. During Desert Storm/Desert Shield the US began reactivating enough old US-flag merchant vessels that one of the Radio Officer associations solicited license holders for a short paid training program and employment as new Radio Officers. Even 30 years ago there weren't many newcomers interested in starting a obvious dead end career, but 15 years earlier I'd have sent in my application if medically qualified.
>
> WRT Phil's comments below, it surprises me when hams claim adamantly that their Morse test was code groups. I attribute that to fading memory. Similary, it was recently stated that a Broadcast Endorsement was attained after earning the Radiotelephone First Class license. The Broadcast Endorsement was granted only to Third Class license holders to show that the announcer (with Third Class license) also had knowledge to serve as transmitter attendant (with Broadcast Endorsement) at small broadcast stations. Memory plays tricks on us old people. :-)
>
> Mike / KK5F
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Apr 30, 2020 12:35 PM
>>
>> Why were code tests with groups almost always at a slower speed than
>> plain text?
>>
>> I had to copy 5-character groups at 16 [I think], and plain text at 20
>> [I also think ... might have been 25, it was a very long time ago] for
>> the 2nd Telegraph. I've never sat a military circuit to copy groups,
>> all my experience with groups was practice, the test, and WX reports
>> which sort of approximate groups. However, I find groups to be easier
>> copy than plain text, especially on a mill of teletype tape perforator
>> keyboard. The transition to "Ear-to-Fingers" mode with nothing passing
>> through brain is almost instantaneous and permanent for the duration.
>> With plain language text, I'll sometimes rouse from that state, try to
>> make sense of what I'm copying and have to catch up.
>>
>> Just curious, lots of folks here here have copied groups for a living
>> and might know the answer. Incidentally, Jettie Hill, W6RFF [SK], once
>> told me that in WW2, he had to learn to sight-read inked tape at 45 or
>> 50 WPM. I think that would have caged my eyeballs. [:=)
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>> On 4/30/2020 9:36 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/29/2020 10:31 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>> CW test had been downgraded to a multiple question exam about plain
>>>> language text message vs the five mixed character groups back in Detroit.
>>>
>>> The ham CW test was always plain language text. 5-character groups were
>>> only for the Radiotelegraph CW exams.
>>>
>>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>>> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Rose

New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Now, in my mid-eighties I can still hear the cigar chewing examiner, a Mr.
Neeb saying "Son, that's mighty fine code" ...

This would have been in the very early sixties.

See my QRZ page for additional related info.

73

Ken Kopp - K0PP

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 19:25 Robert G Strickland via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mike...
>
> When I tested for my general, vintage 1960, I had to receive a five
> minute plain text code message with no errors for one minute. But, I
> don't remember having to send anything (I did have to draw the Colpits
> oscillator, HI). And, for sure, no 5-letter groups. I was scared to
> death, but managed to get through it. You're right about the tricks of
> memory after 80 or so years. After a long hiatus, I started out again at
> age 50, and the code was much easier. I think computer programs made
> learning code easier, or at least it did for me.
>
> ...robert
>
> On 5/1/2020 12:50 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
> > Fred,
> >
> > The Radiotelegraph Second Class license required send and receive at 20
> wpm Plain Language and 16 wpm Code Groups with no errors for one minute
> during the five minute test. The First Class license had the same written
> elements (1, 2, 5, 6) as the Second Class license but the Morse test was 25
> wpm Plain Language and 20 wpm Code Groups, plus a six-month service
> requirement at stations open to public correspondence. (That "public
> correspondence" service requirement kept many operators with decades of
> commercial Morse service from ever getting a First Class license. However,
> every maritime Morse station was defined as open to public correspondence
> even if it was on a freighter and never had any such traffic.)
> >
> > The rare Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement to Second or First Class
> licenses required the same Morse exam as the First Class license.
> >
> > IIRC, the FCC required use of hand copy and straight key for Second
> Class, but allowed typewritter and bug for the First Class tests.
> >
> > After I left the US Navy as a submarine officer more than 40 years ago,
> I decided I'd like to try my hand as a maritime radio officer before that
> job disappeared. (I was one of the few Navy people that loved going to
> sea.) I very much found the seemingly slow 16-wpm Code Group test
> significantly more difficult for test-taking purposes (when one is still
> developing skills) than Plain Language. As few as five errors in the 400
> character test could prevent getting the required 80 consecutive error-free
> characters. It took me three 400-mile round trips to the Kansas City Field
> Office, only because of the 16 wom Code Group test. The 20 wpm Plain
> Language test (given first) was always child's play. I know that with
> practice and a mill an automatic unthinking response soon develops, but I
> did not get that far.
> >
> > For many years the FCC waived the Amateur Extra Morse exam for an
> applicant if he had held a commercial radiotelegraph license. In the
> mid-1990s, the FCC started waiving the Radiotelegraph Second Class Morse
> exams for an applicant holding an Amateur Extra Class license. That was a
> very signicicant relaxation of test standards for the commercial
> Radiotelegraph license, but by then there wasn't much call for the license.
> >
> > I never did get into Radio Officer work because a few months after
> licensing a new but permanent medical condition disqualified me from
> Safety-of-Life-at-Sea (SOLAS) duties. During Desert Storm/Desert Shield
> the US began reactivating enough old US-flag merchant vessels that one of
> the Radio Officer associations solicited license holders for a short paid
> training program and employment as new Radio Officers. Even 30 years ago
> there weren't many newcomers interested in starting a obvious dead end
> career, but 15 years earlier I'd have sent in my application if medically
> qualified.
> >
> > WRT Phil's comments below, it surprises me when hams claim adamantly
> that their Morse test was code groups. I attribute that to fading memory.
> Similary, it was recently stated that a Broadcast Endorsement was attained
> after earning the Radiotelephone First Class license. The Broadcast
> Endorsement was granted only to Third Class license holders to show that
> the announcer (with Third Class license) also had knowledge to serve as
> transmitter attendant (with Broadcast Endorsement) at small broadcast
> stations. Memory plays tricks on us old people. :-)
> >
> > Mike / KK5F
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Apr 30, 2020 12:35 PM
> >>
> >> Why were code tests with groups almost always at a slower speed than
> >> plain text?
> >>
> >> I had to copy 5-character groups at 16 [I think], and plain text at 20
> >> [I also think ... might have been 25, it was a very long time ago] for
> >> the 2nd Telegraph. I've never sat a military circuit to copy groups,
> >> all my experience with groups was practice, the test, and WX reports
> >> which sort of approximate groups. However, I find groups to be easier
> >> copy than plain text, especially on a mill of teletype tape perforator
> >> keyboard. The transition to "Ear-to-Fingers" mode with nothing passing
> >> through brain is almost instantaneous and permanent for the duration.
> >> With plain language text, I'll sometimes rouse from that state, try to
> >> make sense of what I'm copying and have to catch up.
> >>
> >> Just curious, lots of folks here here have copied groups for a living
> >> and might know the answer. Incidentally, Jettie Hill, W6RFF [SK], once
> >> told me that in WW2, he had to learn to sight-read inked tape at 45 or
> >> 50 WPM. I think that would have caged my eyeballs. [:=)
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> >> Sparks NV DM09dn
> >> Washoe County
> >>
> >> On 4/30/2020 9:36 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 4/29/2020 10:31 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> CW test had been downgraded to a multiple question exam about plain
> >>>> language text message vs the five mixed character groups back in
> Detroit.
> >>>
> >>> The ham CW test was always plain language text. 5-character groups
> were
> >>> only for the Radiotelegraph CW exams.
> >>>
> >>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> >>> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
> --
> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
> [hidden email]
> Syracuse, New York, USA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k6dgw

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

I guess my memory is better than I thought. In '56, I sat for the 2T
accidentally ... 16, new driver, terrified driving to downtown Los
Angeles, and got there in the AM as he was setting up for the 2T. He
[roughish sort of guy, voice like a growl, cigar, and no fooling, green
eye shade] gave me an app, said, "Fill it out, if you pass the code you
get credit for the Extra this afternoon." I passed with 5 minutes of
correct copy on both groups and plain text. He gave me the written exam,
I told him I was only 16, birth date was on the app. He removed the
cigar, looked right at me and said, "Son, sit down and answer the damn
questions." So I did, and passed ... exactly. There were a couple or
three "Colpitts Questions." Passed the Extra that afternoon, same guy,
same cigar, same growl.

The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the
desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees.
[:-) Although I already had credit for the code, I wrote it anyway, and
it was all plain text. I really don't know where the urban legend of
groups for the Extra came from but lots of folk think it was a
requirement. Used my 2T for 10 mo while a HS senior as the "Station
Kid" at a coastal marine station, it expired while I was in college.
Kept the 1P, it became a lifetime GROL which is somewhere around here.
I still wonder why the groups were slower than plaintext, they were a
lot easier for me.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 4/30/2020 5:50 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

On 4/30/2020 5:50 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

> The First Class license had the same written elements (1, 2, 5, 6) as
> the Second Class license but the Morse test was 25 wpm Plain Language
> and 20 wpm Code Groups, plus a six-month service requirement at
> stations open to public correspondence.

The experience requirement for the First Telegraph was a year at a
station open to
public correspondence (see below). The Six Months Endorsement required
six moths or more actual experience on an ocean-going passenger or
cargo vessel and was required to be the sole operator on an ocean-going
cargo vessel.
Without that, the operator could only be an operator at a coast station
or a second operator on a passenger or cargo vessel.

The FCC no longer issues or tests for First Telegraph licenses, and
existing licenses were renewed as lifetime licenses as were Second
Telegraph licenses, now renamed as plain Radiotelegraph Operator License.

> (That "public correspondence" service requirement kept many operators
> with decades of commercial Morse service from ever getting a First Class
> license. However, every maritime Morse station was defined as open to
> public correspondence even if it was on a freighter and never had any
> such traffic.)

An exception was made for several Naval Communication Stations that
handled traffic from civilian vessels - the most prominent one was
Balboa in the Canal Zone. "Public correspondence" was not limited to
someone walking in to send a telegram. All messages from vessels
handled through Public Coast stations (RCA, Mackay Radio, etc) were
considered "public correspondence".

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying to
adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
> The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the
> desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

FCC office in lower Manhattan. Finkleman's exam chairs were school desk writing arm chairs. The writing surface had grooves everywhere. They were the size of the Grand Canyon. You were given a very thin sheet of paper and a dull pencil to write your copy. I could barely get the pencil out of a groove to write the next letter. Felt deliberate.

73 - Steve WB6RSE

On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP <[hidden email]> wrote:

Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying to adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
> The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

EricJ-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

You were allowed to bring your own key. FCC examiner in Boston and Long
Beach (twice) were very accommodating to me.

Just curious. How or why would anyone know, let alone remember the name
of their FCC examiner. Seems rather strange to remember someone after
such a very short encounter more than 30 years ago.

Eric KE6US

On 4/30/2020 9:58 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:

> Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying to
> adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.
>
> 73,
> Victor, 4X6GP
> Rehovot, Israel
> Formerly K2VCO
> CWops no. 5
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
> On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the
>> desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] .

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On 4/30/2020 10:59 PM, Steve Lawrence via Elecraft wrote:

> You were given a very thin sheet of paper and a dull pencil to write
> your copy. I could barely get the pencil out of a groove to write the
> next letter. Felt deliberate.

Nah - just the results of a pauper agency whose requests for upgrading
were routinely shot down by upper management and The Congress.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by EricJ-2

On 5/1/2020 9:01 AM, EricJ wrote:

> Just curious. How or why would anyone know, let alone remember the name
> of their FCC examiner. Seems rather strange to remember someone after
> such a very short encounter more than 30 years ago.

Presenting one's self for an FCC license exam is a special thing, not
done every day. I only had five different examiners, two of whom being
office colleagues of mine for the Advanced and Extra once they were
opened up.

I also remember the names of my significant teachers in schools from the
elementary level to the graduate level but don't ask me what I had for
dinner last week.....

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by EricJ-2

I took my General (twice), my Extra, and my 1st Phone there. And we all
talked about our experiences. I won't repeat the whole story again, but
when I took my Extra, I did bring my own key -- a homebrew electronic
keyer. He sneaked up behind me and pulled the plug after he'd heard
enough to pass me.
And it was more like 60 years ago in my case.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 01/05/2020 19:01, EricJ wrote:

> You were allowed to bring your own key. FCC examiner in Boston and Long
> Beach (twice) were very accommodating to me.
>
> Just curious. How or why would anyone know, let alone remember the name
> of their FCC examiner. Seems rather strange to remember someone after
> such a very short encounter more than 30 years ago.
>
> Eric KE6US
>
> On 4/30/2020 9:58 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
>> Finkleman's keys in New York were like that, too. I remember trying to
>> adjust mine. He must have used a pipe wrench to tighten them down.
>>
>> 73,
>> Victor, 4X6GP
>> Rehovot, Israel
>> Formerly K2VCO
>> CWops no. 5
>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>> On 01/05/2020 5:30, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> The 2T and Extra were both pencil/paper copy and J-28 screwed to the
>>> desk with ungodly wide spacing ... not to be adjusted by examinees. [:-)

Joe K2UF

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

I do not remember his name but I remember his face. In 1957 as a teenage
country bumpkin I took a bus to Schenectady N.Y about 20 miles from home to
take my general test. The testers were all business. I remember the
examiner called me to his desk after the cw test. He had my copy folded to
show one character and asked me to identify the character. I told him what
I had copied and he told me I had passed. I think he just wanted to see a
scared kid sweat a little more.

The good old days

73 Joe K2UF

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

On 5/1/2020 10:15 AM, Joe K2UF wrote:

> I remember the examiner called me to his desk after the cw test. He
> had my copy folded to show one character and asked me to identify the
> character. I told him what I had copied and he told me I had passed.

ht happened quite often. I used to announce "up front" that if I cannot
read it you cannot receive credit for it, but usually I bent over
backwards to pass the examinee.

> I think he just wanted to see a scared kid sweat a little more.

Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
passage that really had no foundation in reality.
> The good old days

For sure.

--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

k6dgw

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

Well ... a few years ago I decided to test my recollections of "The Good
Old Days" by entering an NAQP using an SX-28 I had inherited and an
ARC-5 converted to 40 m. I lasted about 2 hours, my rate was around 8
or 9 Q's/hr. First thing about "The Good Old Days" was that the
electrolytics in the Heath HP-23 power supply were dry and I'd have to
scare up some mfd's to quiet the ripple. I've concluded that the good
old days were good because they were all we had, and I seem to have an
effective filter for the "not so good" parts of those times. One of the
things I forgot is that the ARC-5 was cathode-keyed and the bug was
hot. Reverting to my K3 was a joy.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 5/1/2020 10:42 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
>> The good old days
> For sure.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Dave Sublette-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

Folks, I have restrained and refrained from entering this discussion until
I can no longer endure. February 1, 1963 I sat for my Extra with the
District Engineer himself in the Federal Building, downtown San Francisco.
I never did know his name and I cannot read his signature on the
certificate on the wall behind me. I was a barely-21 year old Navy Seaman
going to the ET 'A' School on Treasure Island. I was taking the test
because one of my classmates had bet me he could get his Extra before I
could. If remember correctly he told me he had had 12 screwdrivers that
night. I doubt it. Who can count after three of them?

They gave the exam every Friday at the FCC office. Friday was exam day
every week of the 38 week-long school. In order to take it, I would have
to get special permission to take the exam the night before and get the
the day off next day. I knew I would be lucky if that happened and I
wanted to make very sure that I passed if I got the chance. I doubt the
navy would have allowed a second attempt.

So for six weeks every night I copied code from 10 wpm through 40 wpm from
the local code practice station, K6USN. They were the Naval Reserve station
on the other end of the island from us. We were the Schools Command
Amateur Radio Club, K6NCG. I could turn the RF Gain down on my receiver
and it was like having your own code machine. I progressed until I could
copy 30wpm solid and get four of five written down (five letter groups!). I
was printing, not writing, and no typewriter.

When I walked into the FCC office and asked if I could take the Extra code
and written test, you would have thought I had come from Mars. They almost
literally rolled out a red carpet. In those days, very few ever attempted
the Extra. So the engineer in charge ran the code machine. After allowing
a few minutes of warm up, he started the test tape. When it finished he
stood up and said,"I will give you a few minutes to cross your T's and dot
your I's." He was really trying to be nice to me. Well I had copied every
character from the opening "VVV" to the ending "AR" in neat, block
letters. I said, "I don't think that will be necessary," and handed him
my sheet. he looked at it, smiled and said,"You're right." I don't think
he even counted to see if I had 100 characters in a row.

I completed the written exam in a couple of hours. I'm not sure how many
questions were on it, but I remember one was , "Draw a schematic diagram of
a plate modulated transmitter."

A couple of weeks later I sat for the First Class Engineer License and got
it, with Ship Radar Endorsement.

My time at ET school on TI is one of many treasured memories. I believe it
was the best of the military electronics schools. I loved every minute of
it.

73,

Dave, K4TO

On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/1/2020 10:15 AM, Joe K2UF wrote:
>
> > I remember the examiner called me to his desk after the cw test. He
> > had my copy folded to show one character and asked me to identify the
> > character. I told him what I had copied and he told me I had passed.
>
> ht happened quite often. I used to announce "up front" that if I cannot
> read it you cannot receive credit for it, but usually I bent over
> backwards to pass the examinee.
>
> > I think he just wanted to see a scared kid sweat a little more.
>
> Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
> motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
> the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
> passage that really had no foundation in reality.
> > The good old days
>
> For sure.
>
> --
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

w4ien

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

My experience is a little different. I was an airborne voice intercept op in Vietnam. I flew with 4 other CW ops. I used to copy the voice 5 character groups until I heard CW. I would pick up the call sign and then pass it on to the CW ops. Actually this experience was what got me started in ham radio. Also got me interested in really learning CE.

72/73,
EM73vx
Robin
G-QRP #12386
SKCC #7294
W4IEN
[hidden email]

> On May 1, 2020, at 14:35, Dave Sublette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Folks, I have restrained and refrained from entering this discussion until
> I can no longer endure. February 1, 1963 I sat for my Extra with the
> District Engineer himself in the Federal Building, downtown San Francisco.
> I never did know his name and I cannot read his signature on the
> certificate on the wall behind me. I was a barely-21 year old Navy Seaman
> going to the ET 'A' School on Treasure Island. I was taking the test
> because one of my classmates had bet me he could get his Extra before I
> could. If remember correctly he told me he had had 12 screwdrivers that
> night. I doubt it. Who can count after three of them?
>
> They gave the exam every Friday at the FCC office. Friday was exam day
> every week of the 38 week-long school. In order to take it, I would have
> to get special permission to take the exam the night before and get the
> the day off next day. I knew I would be lucky if that happened and I
> wanted to make very sure that I passed if I got the chance. I doubt the
> navy would have allowed a second attempt.
>
> So for six weeks every night I copied code from 10 wpm through 40 wpm from
> the local code practice station, K6USN. They were the Naval Reserve station
> on the other end of the island from us. We were the Schools Command
> Amateur Radio Club, K6NCG. I could turn the RF Gain down on my receiver
> and it was like having your own code machine. I progressed until I could
> copy 30wpm solid and get four of five written down (five letter groups!). I
> was printing, not writing, and no typewriter.
>
> When I walked into the FCC office and asked if I could take the Extra code
> and written test, you would have thought I had come from Mars. They almost
> literally rolled out a red carpet. In those days, very few ever attempted
> the Extra. So the engineer in charge ran the code machine. After allowing
> a few minutes of warm up, he started the test tape. When it finished he
> stood up and said,"I will give you a few minutes to cross your T's and dot
> your I's." He was really trying to be nice to me. Well I had copied every
> character from the opening "VVV" to the ending "AR" in neat, block
> letters. I said, "I don't think that will be necessary," and handed him
> my sheet. he looked at it, smiled and said,"You're right." I don't think
> he even counted to see if I had 100 characters in a row.
>
> I completed the written exam in a couple of hours. I'm not sure how many
> questions were on it, but I remember one was , "Draw a schematic diagram of
> a plate modulated transmitter."
>
> A couple of weeks later I sat for the First Class Engineer License and got
> it, with Ship Radar Endorsement.
>
> My time at ET school on TI is one of many treasured memories. I believe it
> was the best of the military electronics schools. I loved every minute of
> it.
>
> 73,
>
> Dave, K4TO
>
>> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/1/2020 10:15 AM, Joe K2UF wrote:
>>>
>>> I remember the examiner called me to his desk after the cw test. He
>>> had my copy folded to show one character and asked me to identify the
>>> character. I told him what I had copied and he told me I had passed.
>>
>> ht happened quite often. I used to announce "up front" that if I cannot
>> read it you cannot receive credit for it, but usually I bent over
>> backwards to pass the examinee.
>>
>>> I think he just wanted to see a scared kid sweat a little more.
>>
>> Paraphrasing what one of my mentors once said "do not attribute evil
>> motives on the part of the examiner to the shortcomings on the part of
>> the examinee". Being scared of the examiner was one of the rites of
>> passage that really had no foundation in reality.
>>> The good old days
>>
>> For sure.
>>
>> --
>>
>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On 5/1/2020 11:14 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> One of the things I forgot is that the ARC-5 was cathode-keyed and the
> bug was hot. Reverting to my K3 was a joy.

Thanks for reminding me. Change "K3" to "K2" and I agree wholeheartedly.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Kane-2

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

In reply to this post by Dave Sublette-2

On 5/1/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:

> February 1, 1963 I sat for my Extra with the District Engineer himself
> in the Federal Building, downtown San Francisco. I never did know his
> name and I cannot read his signature on the certificate on the wall
> behind me.

That was Ney R. Landry, W6UDU, later K6RI. Ney was my first boss at the
agency, and was a real Louisiana Gentleman who went out of his way to
help people unless they tried to cross him. The one thing that he did
not tolerate was dishonesty. He started with the FCC after pre-WW-II
Navy service as a radioman. He served in the FCC's Radio Intelligence
Division in San Francisco during WW-II, and then was assigned as the
Resident Engineer in San Diego until 1956 when he was reassigned to San
Francisco as the Assistant Engineer in Charge. He became Engineer in
Charge in 1964 and was promoted as the first Regional Director in 1976.
He retired in 1980 after 40+ years with the FCC and passed away in 2012
at the age of 95, still living with Mary in that little cottage in San
Leandro. His outside passion was golf and he never missed a Saturday
except for the one when his son got married. He taught me an awful lot,
for which I will always be grateful.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

donovanf

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

When I was 16 years old I was offered an engineering job at our local
TV station -- the NBC outlet in Providence RI -- after I graduated from
high school. But they said I had to have a First Class Radiotelephone to
qualify for the job.

No worries I said and I went to work studying. But since I'd have to
make the long trip to Boston I decided to take all of these tests in one sitting:
- third class radiotelephone
- second class radiotelephone
- first class radiotelephone
- third class radiotelegraph
- second class radiotelegraph
- radar endorsement
- Amateur Extra

Several months later I was ready and off I went to Boston. The FCC office
had a receptionist "gatekeeper" so I requested the seven license
examinations I wanted to take (there were no fees in those days). She
smiled at me like I was some smart alec kid trying to prank her. She
demanded that I be serious, so I repeated my list,.. She excused herself and
brought out the FCC Engineer-in-Charge to challenge me. I recited my
requests to him. He -- reluctantly -- agreed and he said "well lets start with
the Amateur Extra code test." I smiled and off I went to be tested at
20 WPM, with many of the Boston FCC office workers including the
receptionist and the Engineer-in-Charge watching over my shoulder.

To make a long story short, three hours later I left the office having qualified
for all seven licenses. The FCC Engineer-in-Charge shook my hand as I left
with a big smile on his face.

I started at WJAR-TV immediately after high school graduation and worked
there full time during the summers and part time during the rest of the year
for nearly four years while studying for my EE at W1KMV (err... the
University of Rhode Island).

73
Frank
W3LPL

----- Original Message -----

From: "Phil Kane" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 10:23:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

On 5/1/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:

> February 1, 1963 I sat for my Extra with the District Engineer himself
> in the Federal Building, downtown San Francisco. I never did know his
> name and I cannot read his signature on the certificate on the wall
> behind me.

That was Ney R. Landry, W6UDU, later K6RI. Ney was my first boss at the
agency, and was a real Louisiana Gentleman who went out of his way to
help people unless they tried to cross him. The one thing that he did
not tolerate was dishonesty. He started with the FCC after pre-WW-II
Navy service as a radioman. He served in the FCC's Radio Intelligence
Division in San Francisco during WW-II, and then was assigned as the
Resident Engineer in San Diego until 1956 when he was reassigned to San
Francisco as the Assistant Engineer in Charge. He became Engineer in
Charge in 1964 and was promoted as the first Regional Director in 1976.
He retired in 1980 after 40+ years with the FCC and passed away in 2012
at the age of 95, still living with Mary in that little cottage in San
Leandro. His outside passion was golf and he never missed a Saturday
except for the one when his son got married. He taught me an awful lot,
for which I will always be grateful.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Macy monkeys

Re: New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)

You win! Hard to top that :)

John K7FD

> On May 1, 2020, at 3:48 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> When I was 16 years old I was offered an engineering job at our local
> TV station -- the NBC outlet in Providence RI -- after I graduated from
> high school. But they said I had to have a First Class Radiotelephone to
> qualify for the job.
>
>
> No worries I said and I went to work studying. But since I'd have to
> make the long trip to Boston I decided to take all of these tests in one sitting:
> - third class radiotelephone
> - second class radiotelephone
> - first class radiotelephone
> - third class radiotelegraph
> - second class radiotelegraph
> - radar endorsement
> - Amateur Extra
>
>
> Several months later I was ready and off I went to Boston. The FCC office
> had a receptionist "gatekeeper" so I requested the seven license
> examinations I wanted to take (there were no fees in those days). She
> smiled at me like I was some smart alec kid trying to prank her. She
> demanded that I be serious, so I repeated my list,.. She excused herself and
> brought out the FCC Engineer-in-Charge to challenge me. I recited my
> requests to him. He -- reluctantly -- agreed and he said "well lets start with
> the Amateur Extra code test." I smiled and off I went to be tested at
> 20 WPM, with many of the Boston FCC office workers including the
> receptionist and the Engineer-in-Charge watching over my shoulder.
>
>
> To make a long story short, three hours later I left the office having qualified
> for all seven licenses. The FCC Engineer-in-Charge shook my hand as I left
> with a big smile on his face.
>
>
> I started at WJAR-TV immediately after high school graduation and worked
> there full time during the summers and part time during the rest of the year
> for nearly four years while studying for my EE at W1KMV (err... the
> University of Rhode Island).
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Phil Kane" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 10:23:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Mystery: Copying groups vs plain language text (Rather OT)
>
>> On 5/1/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:
>>
>> February 1, 1963 I sat for my Extra with the District Engineer himself
>> in the Federal Building, downtown San Francisco. I never did know his
>> name and I cannot read his signature on the certificate on the wall
>> behind me.
>
> That was Ney R. Landry, W6UDU, later K6RI. Ney was my first boss at the
> agency, and was a real Louisiana Gentleman who went out of his way to
> help people unless they tried to cross him. The one thing that he did
> not tolerate was dishonesty. He started with the FCC after pre-WW-II
> Navy service as a radioman. He served in the FCC's Radio Intelligence
> Division in San Francisco during WW-II, and then was assigned as the
> Resident Engineer in San Diego until 1956 when he was reassigned to San
> Francisco as the Assistant Engineer in Charge. He became Engineer in
> Charge in 1964 and was promoted as the first Regional Director in 1976.
> He retired in 1980 after 40+ years with the FCC and passed away in 2012
> at the age of 95, still living with Mary in that little cottage in San
> Leandro. His outside passion was golf and he never missed a Saturday
> except for the one when his son got married. He taught me an awful lot,
> for which I will always be grateful.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]