Elecraft

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

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Cortland Richmond-2

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

On 6/14/2013 0240, [hidden email] wrote:
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:24:12 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
> <[hidden email]> The rig can not tell if you want to transmit SSB or
> CW if you assert PTT before the key closes and because of settling
> time for the various oscillators/synthesizers/offsets can't change
> from SSB to CW while in transmit. If one were to change from SSB to CW
> with every key closure (which is what would happen if one permitted CW
> with PTT in SSB, the CW would be very "whoopy". 73, ... Joe, W4TV

Just turn on the sidetone generator on key closure in SSB. Is it pure
enough?

Cortland
KA5S
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Modulated CW - BARF!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/14/2013 6:40 AM, Cortland Richmond wrote:

> On 6/14/2013 0240, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:24:12 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
>> <[hidden email]> The rig can not tell if you want to transmit SSB or
>> CW if you assert PTT before the key closes and because of settling
>> time for the various oscillators/synthesizers/offsets can't change
>> from SSB to CW while in transmit. If one were to change from SSB to CW
>> with every key closure (which is what would happen if one permitted CW
>> with PTT in SSB, the CW would be very "whoopy". 73, ... Joe, W4TV
>
> Just turn on the sidetone generator on key closure in SSB. Is it pure
> enough?
>
> Cortland
> KA5S
> ______________________________________________________________
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Chester Alderman

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Double BARF !!!!!

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB
mode

Modulated CW - BARF!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/14/2013 6:40 AM, Cortland Richmond wrote:

> On 6/14/2013 0240, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:24:12 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
>> <[hidden email]> The rig can not tell if you want to transmit SSB
>> or CW if you assert PTT before the key closes and because of settling
>> time for the various oscillators/synthesizers/offsets can't change
>> from SSB to CW while in transmit. If one were to change from SSB to
>> CW with every key closure (which is what would happen if one
>> permitted CW with PTT in SSB, the CW would be very "whoopy". 73, ...
>> Joe, W4TV
>
> Just turn on the sidetone generator on key closure in SSB. Is it pure
> enough?
>
> Cortland
> KA5S
> ______________________________________________________________
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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Like the Collins S-line?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tommy
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 6:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB
mode

Double BARF !!!!!

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB
mode

Modulated CW - BARF!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/14/2013 6:40 AM, Cortland Richmond wrote:

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N5GE

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

In reply to this post by Cortland Richmond-2

Yuck!

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 06:40:57 -0400, Cortland Richmond
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>On 6/14/2013 0240, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:24:12 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
>> <[hidden email]> The rig can not tell if you want to transmit SSB or
>> CW if you assert PTT before the key closes and because of settling
>> time for the various oscillators/synthesizers/offsets can't change
>> from SSB to CW while in transmit. If one were to change from SSB to CW
>> with every key closure (which is what would happen if one permitted CW
>> with PTT in SSB, the CW would be very "whoopy". 73, ... Joe, W4TV
>
>Just turn on the sidetone generator on key closure in SSB. Is it pure
>enough?
>
>Cortland
>KA5S
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73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Administrator

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

Gentlemen - Both of these posts are inappropriate and outside of the
list guidelines. Let's tone it down a bit.

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com

On 6/14/2013 6:13 AM, Tommy wrote:

> Double BARF !!!!!
>
> 73,
> Tom - W4BQF
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:56 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB
> mode
>
> Modulated CW - BARF!
> 73,
> ... Joe, W4TV
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

To put it properly -

Keyed sidetone, also known as "modulated CW" is of questionable legality
below 50.1 MHz. It is also poor engineering practice and generates
significant QRM due to carrier leakage, noise/hum modulation,
clipping, and "open mic" noises when a microphone is also connected to
an SSB transmitter at the same time (as it would be between the
dits/dahs).

All of those issues can be observed nearly every day on most HF bands
thanks to the CW by MCW (tone keying) capabilities of both fldigi
and HRD/DM780 in the hands of users who do not understand that the
SSB transmitter and modulation needs to be absolutely pristine and
the microphone disconnected in order to generate a clean CW signal
through tone modulation.

Again, keying the sidetone into the mic input is a grotesquely bad
idea.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/14/2013 12:25 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

> Gentlemen - Both of these posts are inappropriate and outside of the
> list guidelines. Let's tone it down a bit.
>
> Eric
> List Moderator
> elecraft.com
>
> On 6/14/2013 6:13 AM, Tommy wrote:
>> Double BARF !!!!!
>>
>> 73,
>> Tom - W4BQF
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:56 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB
>> mode
>>
>> Modulated CW - BARF!
>> 73,
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Woolley (E.L)

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Most modern commercial transceivers effectively generate CW as SSS MCW.
I think the K3 does it at about 15kHz or less, which is within the
audio range. I suppose the K3X could generate it directly, by just
keying the I signal to the modulator; however, that would mean moving
the VFO between transmit and receive, at the QSK rate. (Keying I on the
K3 would probably be a bad idea, as it would mean that any transmit
roofing filter would need to pass the first LO frequency and therefore
be subject to some carrier leak when key up, so I presume that the CW is
actually synthesized as fully fledged MCW. Even if it keyed I, you
could treat that as MCW with a side tone of 15kHz.)

Even the K2 architecture is effectively an MCW one, but in that case the
initial tone is in the MHz range.

--
David Woolley
Registered owner K2 06123

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> Keyed sidetone, also known as "modulated CW" is of questionable legality
> below 50.1 MHz. It is also poor engineering practice and generates
> significant QRM due to carrier leakage, noise/hum modulation,
> clipping, and "open mic" noises when a microphone is also connected to
> an SSB transmitter at the same time (as it would be between the
> dits/dahs).
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

I wish people would stop using the term 'MCW' for the method of
producing CW by feeding a (one hopes) clean audio tone to an SSB
transmitter. This is a way of generating CW -- which may or may not be
the best way -- but it is not MCW.

MCW as it has always been understood is a carrier modulated at an audio
frequency -- an AM signal. The signal is keyed on and off to transmit
Morse information, but it has two sidebands on either side of a carrier.
If the tone is, say, 600 Hz, then the signal will be at least 1200 kHz
wide. It is illegal in our HF CW bands.

MCW was used in past years for maritime communication because it can be
received by a receiver without a BFO and there is no 'zero beat'
phenomenon which could cause a listener to miss a signal.

On 6/15/13 3:40 AM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

>
> Most modern commercial transceivers effectively generate CW as SSS
> MCW. I think the K3 does it at about 15kHz or less, which is within
> the audio range. I suppose the K3X could generate it directly, by
> just keying the I signal to the modulator; however, that would mean
> moving the VFO between transmit and receive, at the QSK rate. (Keying
> I on the K3 would probably be a bad idea, as it would mean that any
> transmit roofing filter would need to pass the first LO frequency and
> therefore be subject to some carrier leak when key up, so I presume
> that the CW is actually synthesized as fully fledged MCW. Even if it
> keyed I, you could treat that as MCW with a side tone of 15kHz.)
>
> Even the K2 architecture is effectively an MCW one, but in that case
> the initial tone is in the MHz range.
>

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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Bill Frantz

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

Also a FM signal, as when a repeater IDs itself.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 6/15/13 at 8:23 AM, [hidden email] (Vic, K2VCO) wrote:

> MCW as it has always been understood is a carrier modulated at an audio frequency -- an AM signal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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(408)356-8506 | fear is fear itself." - FDR | 16345 Englewood Ave
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

On 6/15/2013 11:23 AM, Vic, K2VCO wrote:
> I wish people would stop using the term 'MCW' for the method of
> producing CW by feeding a (one hopes) clean audio tone to an SSB
> transmitter.

Feeding an audio tone into the mic input of an SSB transmitter is
*most certainly* MCW if the tone is not absolutely clean - no
clipping, no distortion, no hum, no extraneous audio - the SSB
transmitter carrier suppression (carrier balance) is not at least
40 dB, the opposite sideband suppression is not at least 60 dB
and there is no clipping or compression in the transceiver IF
stages or final amplifier.

Without proper carrier suppression, opposite sideband suppression
and distortion free tones, the resulting signal will be twice the
highest distortion product wide *at least* and potentially wider
if the IF stages or final amplifier is non-linear because of the
generation of *additional* IMD products.

> MCW was used in past years for maritime communication because it can
> be received by a receiver without a BFO and there is no 'zero beat'
> phenomenon which could cause a listener to miss a signal.

Modern "MCW" is a single sideband system (one sideband with a reduced
"carrier") where the carrier level is only high enough for reliable
demodulation and the keyed signal is generated separately not using
using a modulation process.

Tone keyed CW as practiced by many amateurs today and generated by
common software is a garbage generating mess and those who engage
in it on any frequency below 145 MHz should be tarred and feathered.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/15/2013 11:23 AM, Vic, K2VCO wrote:

> I wish people would stop using the term 'MCW' for the method of
> producing CW by feeding a (one hopes) clean audio tone to an SSB
> transmitter. This is a way of generating CW -- which may or may not be
> the best way -- but it is not MCW.
>
> MCW as it has always been understood is a carrier modulated at an audio
> frequency -- an AM signal. The signal is keyed on and off to transmit
> Morse information, but it has two sidebands on either side of a carrier.
> If the tone is, say, 600 Hz, then the signal will be at least 1200 kHz
> wide. It is illegal in our HF CW bands.
>
> MCW was used in past years for maritime communication because it can be
> received by a receiver without a BFO and there is no 'zero beat'
> phenomenon which could cause a listener to miss a signal.
>
> On 6/15/13 3:40 AM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:
>>
>> Most modern commercial transceivers effectively generate CW as SSS
>> MCW. I think the K3 does it at about 15kHz or less, which is within
>> the audio range. I suppose the K3X could generate it directly, by
>> just keying the I signal to the modulator; however, that would mean
>> moving the VFO between transmit and receive, at the QSK rate. (Keying
>> I on the K3 would probably be a bad idea, as it would mean that any
>> transmit roofing filter would need to pass the first LO frequency and
>> therefore be subject to some carrier leak when key up, so I presume
>> that the CW is actually synthesized as fully fledged MCW. Even if it
>> keyed I, you could treat that as MCW with a side tone of 15kHz.)
>>
>> Even the K2 architecture is effectively an MCW one, but in that case
>> the initial tone is in the MHz range.
>>
>

Jim Dunstan

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

At 01:04 PM 6/15/2013, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

>Some of the early commercial (1960's) SSB rigs offered CW capability with a
>built-in audio oscillator that fed into the transmit audio. That is not MCW,
>but pseudo CW. It would be CW if the audio oscillator was a perfect sine
>wave and the carrier and opposite sideband suppression were perfect so that
>the only RF transmitted was the sideband produced by the audio oscillator.
>But, of course, it never is...
>
>73 Ron AC7AC

Hi Ron

The old Collins KWS-1 sent CW in this manner. Always sounded
good. I use the same technique with my Flex-1500. I spend most of
my time on either CW or Digital (PSK these days) and rag chewing my
preference. I am an old CW hand but I was never in love with sending
CW ... but love copying it hi hi. I use MixW and simply switch from
PSK to CW and leave PowerSDR in DGU mode. I have asked many
operators at the other end to check my signal for problems of any
kind and have never had a report of signal that wasn't clean and easy
to copy. It makes operating so simple and it certainly gives the guy
at the other end a break hi.

Jim, VE3CI

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

I have always thought of "MCW" as an AM signal - used so that receivers
with only AM capability could copy them.

OTOH, if a SSB signal with sufficient carrier and opposite sideband
suppression is presented with an undistorted sine wave signal, it can be
just as good as a CW signal. Unfortunately, all those conditions are
not satisfied with CW in SSB where an open mic is also present.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/15/2013 6:40 AM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

k6dgw

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

In the marine CW service in the late 50's, nearly all traffic on the
Holy Wavelength [600m] was MCW. After all, it was the worldwide
distress channel. A lot on working frequencies was too. Unlike MCW on
the VHF ham bands, the RF carrier was also keyed, but in either case, it
was double-sideband amplitude modulation.

Shipboard transmitters usually employed motor-generator sets to get the
high voltages necessary from the ship's DC mains. They weren't filtered
well and most transmitters afloat were modulated by M-G whine. The M-G
sets also weren't well regulated so the voltages rose and fell with the
CW. The result, if you listened with the BFO on, was a chirping carrier
modulated by a chirping audio tone with a chirping whine in the
background. It was "distinctive" as Ron says but generally less than
harmonious. :-)

None of this MCW drivel has anything to do with the CW scheme for SSB
transmitters, pioneered if not invented by Collins in their KWM2 and
S-line equipment. It worked for Collins because their mechanical filter
suppressed the opposite sideband by something like 70-80dB, the balanced
modulator had good carrier suppression and the filter added to that, and
they generated a very clean sine wave.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013
- www.cqp.org

On 6/15/2013 10:04 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Quite right Vic. A.M. MCW was *required" for any emergency maritime
> communications. Up until well after WWII, some ships still had crystal
> detectors as the 'emergency' receiver should the main receiver fail. In any
> case, A.M. MCW received on a superhet produced a very distinctive sound that
> made it stand out from other traffic and was required or any shipboard CW
> transmitter.

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Point me to the note for sending CW when in, SSB mode

> None of this MCW drivel has anything to do with the CW scheme for
> SSB transmitters, pioneered if not invented by Collins in their KWM2
> and S-line equipment. It worked for Collins because their mechanical
> filter suppressed the opposite sideband by something like 70-80dB,
> the balanced modulator had good carrier suppression and the filter
> added to that, and they generated a very clean sine wave.

Absolutely - the Collins CW oscillator was nearly test equipment pure.
It was 1 KHz, the mechanical filters had very sharp skirts because of
their low frequency, and the carrier oscillator offset was quite large
it was some 40 dB down the filter skirt to start with. None of the
Collins rigs had a lot of low frequency (<300 Hz) audio because of the
filter skirts/carrier oscillator placement.

Modern rigs with their wide filters and carrier oscillators well up
the filter skirts just can't produce clean CW from an external
modulating tone - particularly when the tone is nearly a square wave
from over driving the mic preamp.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/15/2013 5:14 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> In the marine CW service in the late 50's, nearly all traffic on the
> Holy Wavelength [600m] was MCW. After all, it was the worldwide
> distress channel. A lot on working frequencies was too. Unlike MCW on
> the VHF ham bands, the RF carrier was also keyed, but in either case, it
> was double-sideband amplitude modulation.
>
> Shipboard transmitters usually employed motor-generator sets to get the
> high voltages necessary from the ship's DC mains. They weren't filtered
> well and most transmitters afloat were modulated by M-G whine. The M-G
> sets also weren't well regulated so the voltages rose and fell with the
> CW. The result, if you listened with the BFO on, was a chirping carrier
> modulated by a chirping audio tone with a chirping whine in the
> background. It was "distinctive" as Ron says but generally less than
> harmonious. :-)
>
> None of this MCW drivel has anything to do with the CW scheme for SSB
> transmitters, pioneered if not invented by Collins in their KWM2 and
> S-line equipment. It worked for Collins because their mechanical filter
> suppressed the opposite sideband by something like 70-80dB, the balanced
> modulator had good carrier suppression and the filter added to that, and
> they generated a very clean sine wave.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 6/15/2013 10:04 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Quite right Vic. A.M. MCW was *required" for any emergency maritime
>> communications. Up until well after WWII, some ships still had crystal
>> detectors as the 'emergency' receiver should the main receiver fail.
>> In any
>> case, A.M. MCW received on a superhet produced a very distinctive
>> sound that
>> made it stand out from other traffic and was required or any shipboard CW
>> transmitter.
>
>
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