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Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

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Michael Zolno

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

Jim,

Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.

All my best,

Mike WH6YH

Sent from my iPad

>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>
> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
> is produced.
>
> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
> non-linear devices!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

I am not Jim but if you are asking for the math based reference for square waves…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>
> All my best,
>
> Mike WH6YH
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>
>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>> is produced.
>>
>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>> non-linear devices!
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Michael Zolno

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

Well that was fast! Thank You Phil!

I'm not an engineer, or a mathematician, but on the recommendation of someone whom I respect (Phil Anderson, W0XI) during an email chat last year, I've been looking for a bit more of the "behind the scenes" math wise when something interests me.

My apologies for the OT bandwidth and Thank You.

All my very best,

Mike WH6YH

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am not Jim but if you are asking for the math based reference for square waves…
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>>
>> All my best,
>>
>> Mike WH6YH
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>>
>>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>>> is produced.
>>>
>>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>>> non-linear devices!
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

Michael,

No problem — I guess I was just reading the messages at the time you posted yours or soon after.

Math, actually, Mathematical Physics is my number one passion and hobby (yes, I mean hobby). Ham radio is important to me but it ranks 3rd behind second ranked woodworking (hand joinery projects) and first ranked mathematical physics (QED/QFT and General Relativity).

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 5:01 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well that was fast! Thank You Phil!
>
> I'm not an engineer, or a mathematician, but on the recommendation of someone whom I respect (Phil Anderson, W0XI) during an email chat last year, I've been looking for a bit more of the "behind the scenes" math wise when something interests me.
>
> My apologies for the OT bandwidth and Thank You.
>
> All my very best,
>
> Mike WH6YH
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am not Jim but if you are asking for the math based reference for square waves…
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>>>
>>> All my best,
>>>
>>> Mike WH6YH
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>>>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>>>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>>>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>>>> is produced.
>>>>
>>>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>>>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>>>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>>>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>>>> non-linear devices!
>>>>
>>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>

Michael Zolno

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

Please disregard Jim, and Thank You. I'm certain you can easily add to my reading pile, but I gracefully submit to the pile at hand!!!

Many Thanks for the speedy and efficient nature of this list and Thank You to all those responses, public and private.

All my very best,

Mike WH6YH

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 9:04 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> No problem — I guess I was just reading the messages at the time you posted yours or soon after.
>
> Math, actually, Mathematical Physics is my number one passion and hobby (yes, I mean hobby). Ham radio is important to me but it ranks 3rd behind second ranked woodworking (hand joinery projects) and first ranked mathematical physics (QED/QFT and General Relativity).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 5:01 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well that was fast! Thank You Phil!
>>
>> I'm not an engineer, or a mathematician, but on the recommendation of someone whom I respect (Phil Anderson, W0XI) during an email chat last year, I've been looking for a bit more of the "behind the scenes" math wise when something interests me.
>>
>> My apologies for the OT bandwidth and Thank You.
>>
>> All my very best,
>>
>> Mike WH6YH
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not Jim but if you are asking for the math based reference for square waves…
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
>>>
>>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jim,
>>>>
>>>> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>>>>
>>>> All my best,
>>>>
>>>> Mike WH6YH
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>>>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>>>>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>>>>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>>>>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>>>>> is produced.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>>>>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>>>>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>>>>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>>>>> non-linear devices!
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k6dgw

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

In reply to this post by Michael Zolno

NON-MATH [mostly]: If you add up all the odd harmonics of a sine
function forever, when forever is over, you will have created a square
wave. In fact, if you add up all the harmonics of a sine wave, in
various proportions, forever, when forever is over, you can have created
any waveform possible.

For MATH, search Wikipedia for "square wave".

The issue this unrelated thread morphed into delves into a really big
issue in radio design. We think of the keying or the signal from the
microphone as just a voltage that varies with time. For a paddle, it's
there or not there. For the microphone, it's a voltage whose amplitude
varies with time as we speak.

Because of the MATH, those signals can also be represented as the sum of
individual signals at specific frequencies with individual phases, and
that's how the electronics treats them. Filters, amplifiers, mixers,
and other components do not always treat all those different signals the
same way, distorting their amplitude or their phase or both relative to
each other.

It would be great, and college would be a lot more fun and a lot less
math if this weren't true, but sadly, it is.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 4/27/2015 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious
> (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not
> immediately available.
>
> All my best,
>
> Mike WH6YH
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Michael Zolno

Re: [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download [Now] CW

In reply to this post by Michael Zolno

Well I haven't read that, but I'm not surprised, Mr. Bulter's site is a treasure.

Thank you.

Mike

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 28, 2015, at 7:16 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> This does not specifically talk about CW, but CW really is AM. The modulating signal is a square wave, modulated at 100%.
>
> http://users.tpg.com.au/users/ldbutler/Intermodulation.htm
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>>
>> All my best,
>>
>> Mike WH6YH
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>>
>>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>>> is produced.
>>>
>>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>>> non-linear devices!
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:01:45 -0400
> From: Michael Zolno <[hidden email]>
> To: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Was] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download
> [Now] CW
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Well that was fast! Thank You Phil!
>
> I'm not an engineer, or a mathematician, but on the recommendation of someone whom I respect (Phil Anderson, W0XI) during an email chat last year, I've been looking for a bit more of the "behind the scenes" math wise when something interests me.
>
> My apologies for the OT bandwidth and Thank You.
>
> All my very best,
>
> Mike WH6YH
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am not Jim but if you are asking for the math based reference for square waves?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Michael Zolno <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> Can you point to a math based reference for this. I am curious (really). Any other non math based is appreciated as well if not immediately available.
>>>
>>> All my best,
>>>
>>> Mike WH6YH
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>>> On Apr 27, 2015, at 7:51 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>>>>> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
>>>> an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
>>>> drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
>>>> in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
>>>> is produced.
>>>>
>>>> It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
>>>> and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
>>>> harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
>>>> simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
>>>> non-linear devices!
>>>>
>>>> 73, Jim K9YC