Revised Shipping date for K3

[robert hammond-2]

It seems that the delays for the shipping of the much awaited K3 continue.

Would it be better for the folks at Elecraft to sit down, take a deep breath, re assess what they really can achieve,  and supply us all with a realistic date for first shipments ?

Detialed explanations of which toroid value is missing, or which size screw is short aren't really helping anyone, least of all the elecraft staff who have to spend time writing up the weekly reports. There's a danger in announcing a one week delay to product release every week.... you might never get there......

I would rather be told that the first radios will not ship until say 6th January 2008, rather than be continually disappointed every few weeks by further stories of delays to parts required.  This would take the pressure off the team who could then get o nand sort hthe problems, and deliver a first class product to an accepted (albeit late) release date.  Their optimism bias over the product launch must be taking a toll on all their staff, all for what ?

I am sure Elecraft are doing their best to deliver - but continually failing to meet their over optimistic delivery dates isn't doing their company's reputation in my opinion.

I will look forward to receiving my K3 iwhenever it arrives .....

73

Bob G4DBW


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[dj7mgq]

Hi Bob,

> I would rather be told that the first radios will not ship until say 6th
> January 2008, rather than be continually disappointed every few weeks by
> further stories of delays to parts required.  

But that's half the fun... ;-)

Seriously, Eric and Wayne have always been a bit on the optimistic side, and I
don't feel that the delays have been excessive up to now. They are more or less
what I expected.

Keeping people, some of whom have paid a large amount months ago, about 95% in
my case, informed is a good idea but it shouldn't get in the way of Elecraft's
real work. A short mail to the list, once a week seems to me to be a good
compromise. It is this kind of feed back which actually is a major part of the
Elecraft reputation.

Happily awaiting my K3,

toby
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, robert hammond wrote:

>
> I would rather be told that the first radios will not ship until say 6th January 2008, rather than be continually disappointed every few weeks by further stories of delays to parts required.

Poor Elecraft....trying to keep folks in forms sullies their reputation.

If they took your advices there might still be a number of folks posting
questions on why there was a delay, yatta, yatta, yatta.

Seems to me that instead of offering Eleccraft unsolicited marketing advice, we
might just sit back and wait for the units to ship...as all of the after the
fact management advice may not quicken the ship date....and if there is enough
of it, we'll see Wayne and Eric taking time away from getting the units out the
door to post here.

>
> I will look forward to receiving my K3 iwhenever it arrives .....

Then why make the fuss ?

73 - k3hrn
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Well perhaps you would like them to put you down for that date and let
someone else take your place in the queue? Do you really think it
would be preferable for them to keep the finished radios in a
warehouse until some announced date? Why must some people always find
a reason to complain?

It only takes one part to be missing to stop the entire shipment. This
is outside anyone's control. By keeping us informed Elecraft deserves
some sympathy from us, not more complaints. I am sure they are just
about as frustrated as we are, having devoted a large part of their
lives to bringing the K3 into existence and then when it's just about
complete being prevented from delivering it.

Let's have some perspective. At the end of the day, it's just a radio
that will be used for a hobby. It's not a key piece of equipment for a
business project that is going to cost you money every day it's late
being delivered. It's disappointing that it's late, but that's all.
There are far worse things that could happen.
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 9/14/07, robert hammond <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would rather be told that the first radios will not ship until say 6th January 2008, rather
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[Darwin, Keith]

Estimates & promise dates.

Anytime someone is doing something new, producing an estimate of when it
will be done is tough.  How do you know how long it will take to do
something you've never done before?

Then if you include the fact that your suppliers have the same problem
(unable to accurately predict completion dates) you begin to see how
tough it is.

Now, add to that a customer base (or management base) who wants you to
DELIVER ON TIME and is constantly pressing you with questions like "how
soon can you have it done".  Suddenly, you're giving optimistic
estimates based on optimistic estimates from your suppliers.  Meeting
these dates is nearly impossible.

In the end, it will take what it takes.  You can stand there and watch
the kettle boil but you won't get your tea any sooner that way and if
you keep taking off the stove the measure the temperature, it just might
take longer.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one having these sorts of issues
at work :-)

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -

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[Bjorn]

Well, as a European I don't mind delays right now... the dollar is weaker
and the K3 is getting cheaper! :)

Any future K3 owners going to the NAB or R&R convention in Charlotte?


73 de Björn /SM0MDG


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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

There will be a K3 presentation at the RSGB HF convention in October,
http://www.rsgb.org/hfc/

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Björn Mohr" <[hidden email]>


> Well, as a European I don't mind delays right now... the dollar is weaker
> and the K3 is getting cheaper! :)

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Well Richard we will have to agree to disagree. Unlike you I am one of
the people who helped "finance the radio's production." Therefore if
anything this makes me more entitled to complain than you.

As a customer of Elecraft since 1999 I was happy to put down the
deposit. I was confident they will deliver the radio I am so keen to
own. I still am. Sure, it is not being delivered by the dates they
originally said. But I'm still going to receive it before all those
who didn't stump up the deposit, and that's all I expected. I knew
there was a chance there would be a slippage in the delivery dates.
That's the risk I took. I still think it was worth the risk.

It's absolute nonsense to describe as "incompetence" the reasons for
the delay. I suppose you would say the same about Microsoft for its
delays in shipping Windows Vista? They were only shipping software, so
no excuses of unavailable parts. And that delay resulting in a launch
after Christmas cost their customers millions of dollars in lost sales
of new computers.

All the delayed shipping of the K3 is costing is a few frayed tempers.
Sure you could count the lost interest on the deposit paid, or even
the changing exchange rates. I'm sure the K3 is going to be worth what
I pay. If I hadn't been, I'd have waited until they were shipping and
I could see one, work one, read what people said about them, before
making the decision.
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 9/14/07, Richard Beerman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Julian.... I cannot tell you how much I completely disagree with you
> about Elecraft's delivery delays. Thank goodness I have not sent them any
> money to date. As a previous writer to this forum wrote, Elecraft financed
> this radio's production by early subscription and not by going down to the
> bank for a loan as most companies would. They have indicated a number of
> dates for a delivery of the K-3. While there might no tight contract
> regarding delivery, they certainly implied a delivery date to induce further
> sales of the K-3. I think they are getting dangerously close to a descptive
> trade practice situation no matter how unintentional. Imagine that the
> current excuse for non shipment is a toriod or a screw. How totally
> incompetent! They should have had a qualified purchasing agent on board.
> They should have had real written contracts with these suppliers to deliver
> the components on time with penalties for non performance. It's a business,
> for crying out loud!
>
> I was going to order my K-3 in March, 2008 after everything was shaken out
> and the firmware perfected. I think I will be months delayed and I am really
> mad about it. Don't excuse these Elecraft guys. They might be great
> engineers but they are pretty poor at manufacturing a large numbers of
> radios at any given time. Very poor managers in my opinion. So, when I read
> all the email on the reflector from the "coolaid drinkers", the guys who
> excuse poor business practices to the point of unethical, I see red and
> purple! Flame at will because I am absolutely correct.
>
> Dick   VR2/W5AK
>
>
> >From: "Julian G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
> >To: elecraft <[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Revised Shipping date for K3
> >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:21:08 +0100
> >
> >Well perhaps you would like them to put you down for that date and let
> >someone else take your place in the queue? Do you really think it
> >would be preferable for them to keep the finished radios in a
> >warehouse until some announced date? Why must some people always find
> >a reason to complain?
> >
> >It only takes one part to be missing to stop the entire shipment. This
> >is outside anyone's control. By keeping us informed Elecraft deserves
> >some sympathy from us, not more complaints. I am sure they are just
> >about as frustrated as we are, having devoted a large part of their
> >lives to bringing the K3 into existence and then when it's just about
> >complete being prevented from delivering it.
> >
> >Let's have some perspective. At the end of the day, it's just a radio
> >that will be used for a hobby. It's not a key piece of equipment for a
> >business project that is going to cost you money every day it's late
> >being delivered. It's disappointing that it's late, but that's all.
> >There are far worse things that could happen.
> >--
> >Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
> >G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> >Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
> >
> >
> >On 9/14/07, robert hammond <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I would rather be told that the first radios will not ship until say 6th
> >January 2008, rather
> >_______________________________________________
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[Darwin, Keith]

On 9/14/07, Richard Beerman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> money to date. As a previous writer to this forum wrote, Elecraft
financed
> this radio's production by early subscription and not by going down to
the
> bank for a loan as most companies would.

That's one way to look at it and it is true to a point but does not
capture the full picture.  What they also did was allow people to get in
line to be guaranteed of being the first to get a rig.  I don't think
anyone would consider this any sort of deceitful tactic.  Advance sales
is a rather common thing.  It works for both parties involved and is
OPTIONAL so no harm done.


> They have indicated a number of
> dates for a delivery of the K-3. While there might no tight contract
> regarding delivery, they certainly implied a delivery date to induce
further
> sales of the K-3.

"to induce further sales"?  I don't think that position is supportable.
If they had said first delivery would be in Nov, would advanced sales
have been less?  I suspect not.  Instead they've given their best
estimate of when the K3 will be done.  The wise purchaser would have
taken those dates as optimistic and would have been prepared for delays.


> I think they are getting dangerously close to a descptive
> trade practice situation no matter how unintentional. Imagine that the
> current excuse for non shipment is a toriod or a screw. How totally
> incompetent! They should have had a qualified purchasing agent on
board.
> They should have had real written contracts with these suppliers to
deliver
> the components on time with penalties for non performance. It's a
business,
> for crying out loud!

Here I cry "foul".  Sorry, but even with "qualified" people on board
there is no guarantee that your suppliers are going to perform to YOUR
schedule.  It is a new development effort and they ALWAYS have issues.
This is nothing new and nothing out of the ordinary.  Incompetent?
Quite the opposite.  Incompetent would be shipping late because LOTS of
things are not done or ready.  To be late because just a few parts
didn't come through says that a LOT of things went very right.
Contracts with non-performance clauses work just fine between US
Government and Lockheed (big stuff) but I'm not sure that a small group
like elecraft could get such an agreement in place with their suppliers.
You have to have enough leverage with your supplier that they're willing
to pay penalties.


> I was going to order my K-3 in March, 2008 after everything was shaken
out
> and the firmware perfected. I think I will be months delayed and I am
really
> mad about it. Don't excuse these Elecraft guys. They might be great
> engineers but they are pretty poor at manufacturing a large numbers of
> radios at any given time. Very poor managers in my opinion. So, when I
read
> all the email on the reflector from the "coolaid drinkers", the guys
who
> excuse poor business practices to the point of unethical, I see red
and
> purple! Flame at will because I am absolutely correct.

Well I guess you'll be seeing some more red then.  The issues that have
been experienced are common to manufacturing companies nation wide.
I've seen it here where I work.  We wrestle with the same issues every
day.  Not too long ago there was a post to this group talking about the
issues / delays at Collins when they brought out the S-line.  Same
stuff.

"Coolaid drinkers?"  Geeze laweez Dick, that's sort of harsh.  You're
referencing a mass murder event and saying we're all like victims of a
cult leader?

Of course, since you're absolutely correct, there is really not much
point in trying to discuss any of this, so we'll just have to agree to
disagree agreeably.

73 OM and the group!

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -

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[Vic K2VCO]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

> It's absolute nonsense to describe as "incompetence" the reasons for
> the delay. I suppose you would say the same about Microsoft for its
> delays in shipping Windows Vista? They were only shipping software, so
> no excuses of unavailable parts.

I've kept quiet about this so far. For one thing, as a beta tester I can
be accused of being 'biased toward Elecraft'. But some of the statements
being made are so far off the mark that I felt the need to comment.
Julian is so right.

Have the complainers bought *any* new high-tech stuff, hardware or
software, lately?

Have they ever received a product that simply does not -- indeed could
not, because of design defects -- work as advertised? I have.

Have they ever received a product, say a new computer, with a
certificate that allows them to purchase an operating system at some
later date?  And is said operating system missing drivers needed to
operate said computer? Not to mention the fact that the operating system
does not have all of the features promised?

Have they ever had the experience of talking to an outsourced technical
support person who has no idea of what they are talking about and whose
solutions are designed to get the caller to hang up -- someone else will
get him next time?

Do the Japanese radio manufacturers issue weekly bulletins about
delivery dates of new products? How long does it take them to fix bugs,
like the FT1KMP key clicks?

As a beta tester, whose radio still has all of the pre-production boards
and who pasted little paper labels on my pre-production front panel
where control functions have changed, I can tell you after using it that
I wouldn't trade this radio for *anything* out there (well, I haven't
tried the Hilberling PT-8000, about EU 12K for the 100-watt version).

The K3 is not vapor, it's real. The firmware does not pretend to work,
it works. It is really, really well thought out. It has depth.

When you get it, it will do what Elecraft has promised, and if you have
a problem they will fix it. And as the firmware evolves, it will get
better and better, in terms of features and performance.

So who cares if it's a few weeks late? Or months, for that matter?
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Vic K2VCO wrote:

>
> As a beta tester, whose radio still has all of the pre-production boards and
> who pasted little paper labels on my pre-production front panel where control
> functions have changed, I can tell you after using it that I wouldn't trade
> this radio for *anything* out there (well, I haven't tried the Hilberling
> PT-8000, about EU 12K for the 100-watt version).
>
> The K3 is not vapor, it's real. The firmware does not pretend to work, it
> works. It is really, really well thought out. It has depth.

Gee, Vic....I wonder how many of you beta folks will have to make statements to
calm the waters?

Based on my experiences, I thought that it was perfectly fine to assist Elecraft
with a deposit, and I'm willing to wait to get what they decide the optimal
production piece in the first run.

I'm beginning to look at the comments like I do people that don't vote:

Don't vote, Don't complain.

And you know, I don't think I've seen any of the complainers who did order a K3
offer their place in line to any of the folks patiently wating.

Some folks appear to be more interesting in complaining than most anything else.

>
> So who cares if it's a few weeks late? Or months, for that matter?

Perhaps if one has their panties all wadded-up, the discomfort outweighs common
sense.

73 - k3hrn
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[N6TR]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Thom LaCosta wrote:

> Gee, Vic....I wonder how many of you beta folks will have to make
> statements to calm the waters?

Okay - last night, I worked G4AMT with my K3.  

Here is a very interesting shot - of G4AMT coming back to KC7V.  I snapped
the photo a bit too soon to get his full call in the display:

http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/G4AMT.jpg

Note the frequency.  You might wonder about the display on the left showing
my passband (it's got wings on it).  Just yet another feature that hasn't
been talked about yet that will blow the socks off the competition.

Vapor - not.

Tree N6TR/7
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[Craig Smith]

I'm in group #3 with early December ish delivery prediction when I ordered
it and paid 50%.  If it slips a few weeks or months it isn't a big concern.
I'd rather have it "right" when it gets here.  As along as it appears before
the sunspots, I'll be happy - and the sunspots don't seem to be in any hurry
;>)

          73
                  ... Craig  AC0DS  


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[Craig Rairdin]

> Have the complainers bought *any* new high-tech stuff, hardware or
> software, lately?
> Have they ever ...
> Have they ever ...
> Have they ever ...
> Do the Japanese ..
> So who cares if it's a few weeks late? Or months, for that matter?

One thing I HAVE done is collected credit card payments in advance for a
product that didn't ship on its ship date. It's my understanding that when
you go beyond 30 days late you need to send a written notice to those who
paid by credit card with an updated ship date and the offer to cancel with a
full refund. You have to repeat that 30 days after the new date passes. I
may be mistaken; it may be that you only have to notify those who ordered by
mail. I can't remember if the rule comes from the credit card companies or
the US Mail.

I know it is challenging to bring out a new product, and especially to do it
under the scrutiny of your customers. I'm just once again pointing out that
while Elecraft is a great company they're not perfect. I think people are
well within their rights to complain about the delays. I'm not complaining;
just defending the rights of others to do so.

Craig
NZ0R

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[David Fleming-2]

--- Tree <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You might wonder about the display on the left
> showing my passband (it's got wings on it). Just yet
> another feature that hasn't been talked about yet
> that will blow the socks off the competition.

So let's talk about this feature. It looks like
shingles on a roof. What's it all about?

-David W4SMT


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[N6TR]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 02:42:02PM -0700, David Fleming wrote:
> --- Tree <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > You might wonder about the display on the left
> > showing my passband (it's got wings on it). Just yet
> > another feature that hasn't been talked about yet
> > that will blow the socks off the competition.
>
> So let's talk about this feature. It looks like
> shingles on a roof. What's it all about?

It might be covered in the new manual - but this is a special filter that I
have found very well suited to hearing weak signals in noise.  One name I
have heard it called is "context" filtering.  On CW, it essentially is two
filters running at the same time.  The DSP filter is tuned to something like
150 hertz bandwidth - but the skirts stop down 10-20 db down - and the
response flattens out - until you get out to something closer to 400 hz and
then the response dives down.  

So - you can hear signals outside of your narrow passband - but they are
attenuated with respect to anything in the center of your passband.

That - with some of the audio special effects (using stereo) - really make
this receiver a joy to use on a noisy band like 160 meters.

Tree N6TR
[hidden email]
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[KK7P]

>> ...Just yet
>> another feature that hasn't been talked about yet
>> that will blow the socks off the competition.
>
> ... What's it all about?

It's all about context and focus :-)

Or, put another way, (monospace font ON)

         /\
        |  |
      __|  |__
____/        \____


becomes

     __      __
  __/_/  /\  \_\_
/               \


There, that saved me almost 1,000 words!

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Craig Smith]

Thanks, Tree, for the info on the CW filter setup you use.  Sounds very
intriguing!  Can't wait to try it.  A couple of questions:

Are you saying the DSP filter is programmable with respect to the ultimate
rejection?  That is, can you tell it you only want 10 or 20 db and then
flat?

Also, does this have anything to do with the comment you made the other day
about telling the K3 you were using a 500 Hz roofing filter instead of the
400 Hz unit installed?  If so, how does that help?

Inquiring minds want to know  ;>)

                  73          ... Craig  AC0DS




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[M0XDF]

Wow - you know how you sometimes get all fidgety and itchy when you're close
to the end of a good book?

Well ........


On 14/9/07 23:05, "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]> sent:

>>> ...Just yet
>>> another feature that hasn't been talked about yet
>>> that will blow the socks off the competition.
>>
>> ... What's it all about?
>
> It's all about context and focus :-)
>
> Or, put another way, (monospace font ON)
>
>          /\
>         |  |
>       __|  |__
> ____/        \____
>
>
> becomes
>
>      __      __
>   __/_/  /\  \_\_
> /               \
>
>
> There, that saved me almost 1,000 words!
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P

--
Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing
is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity.
-Lord Acton, historian (1834-1902)


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[N6TR]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:28:56PM -0600, Craig D. Smith wrote:

> Are you saying the DSP filter is programmable with respect to the ultimate
> rejection?  That is, can you tell it you only want 10 or 20 db and then
> flat?

I think this might be user programmable someday in the future.  I heard one
of the programmers say something that led me to believe that.  However, for
now, I just press the XFIL button for a second and it comes up.  I can't
really imagine making it much better than the default setup.

> Also, does this have anything to do with the comment you made the other day
> about telling the K3 you were using a 500 Hz roofing filter instead of the
> 400 Hz unit installed?  If so, how does that help?

Actually - the two are separate.

Tree
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