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SO2R thoughts

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Stephen Bloom

SO2R thoughts

Hey all:

I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for
about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a
Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and
just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA
is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still
loud).

With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really
SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the
KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs
where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood
TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three
options I'm mulling over are ..

1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,
It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.

2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec
(meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I
wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.

3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me.
In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take
portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv
performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain
all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there
were any configuration issues

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks and 73
Steve KL7SB

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: SO2R thoughts

Steve,

I would suggest the KX3 + KXPA100 as the best solution (since you also
want a portable rig). The display and controls of the KX3 are similar
to those on the K3, so you don't have to concentrate as much on the
differences between the 2 radios.

If it were not for your statement about portable, I would say the 2nd K3
would be your best solution to SO2R operation.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

> Hey all:
>
> I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for
> about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a
> Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and
> just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA
> is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still
> loud).
>
> With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really
> SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the
> KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs
> where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood
> TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three
> options I'm mulling over are ..
>
> 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,
> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
>
> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec
> (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I
> wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.
>
> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me.
> In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take
> portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv
> performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
> general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain
> all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there
> were any configuration issues
>
>
>

w0mu

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

I have two K3's. One decked out with all the bells and whistles and the
other one is pretty basic. Having two exact rigs is helpful especially
when tired.

The KX3 also sounds like a fun option.

TS590 pretty good bang for the bucks.

I like to support small business and made in America when possible.
Hard not to support the Elecraft gang!

Mike W0MU

On 3/27/2014 8:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

Jim-5

Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I had a similar decision to make.

I thought I would take the rig camping
and hikes, goin' mobile.

But, I bought a comfortable chair at the
same time and............

Get another K3.

There is a VERY good reason there are
*significantly* more used KX-3's on the
market compared to K3's

Jim

WA9ZBV

From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:48 PM
To: Stephen Bloom; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft_K3] Re: [Elecraft]
SO2R thoughts

Steve,

I would suggest the KX3 + KXPA100 as the
best solution (since you also
want a portable rig). The display and
controls of the KX3 are similar
to those on the K3, so you don't have to
concentrate as much on the
differences between the 2 radios.

If it were not for your statement about
portable, I would say the 2nd K3
would be your best solution to SO2R
operation.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom
wrote:
> Hey all:
>
> I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500,
and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for
> about 9 months now. Love em all. The
one additional thing I wanted was a
> Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active
contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and
> just put that online. So far so good.
The one clear downside to the 2K-FA
> is ...that it is loud (actually
quieter than most High Power amps but
still
> loud).
>
> With that said ...and given the fact
that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really
> SO2R (second antenna is rx only)
...I'm going to pair a second rig with
the
> KPA500 and use it as a backup contest
rig and as main for non contest Qs
> where I don't need the extra 3DB.
Right now the second rig is a Kenwood
> TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest
or DX quality transceiver. The three
> options I'm mulling over are ..
>
> 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most
intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> plays well with KPA500/KAT500,
identical cabling ...Downside:
Expensive,
> It's more fun to have different rigs
to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to
listen to for many hours.
>
> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest
bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside:
Looks like it has a weird audio codec
> (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I
see that N1MM works with it ...but I
> wonder about other software plus the
MK2R+.
>
> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500)
..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me.
> In a perfect world ...the Second Rig
would be one I could easily take
> portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to
indicate that the KX3 rcv
> performance is comparable to the K3,
and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
> general. Downside: Clearly there is no
technical reason one couldn't chain
> all this together, but I wonder if
anyone actually has done it, and if
there
> were any configuration issues
>
>
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Elecraft_K3] SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio
> codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with
> it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.

With MK2R+ you ignore the internal CODEC and the USB connection - use
RS-232 for CAT and the normal ACC/Mic jacks for audio connections. The
overall issue with Kenwood is that it does not have a separate "mode"
for AFSK/PSK31 - you need to rely on the "digital band map" in microHAM
Router to distinguish between phone and digital. Sometimes that can be
a bit of an issue - e.g. 40 meters.

> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really
> intrigues me.

The KX3 is most certainly *not* a contest radio. Since it lacks FSK,
and dedicated line out/line in connections, microHAM does not support
the KX3 (or any other radio that lacks one or more required connections
like a serial CAT port, or separate analog line out, and analog line
in).

If it were me, the choice would be between the K3 and TS-590 ... and I
would lean toward the K3 due to the availability of P3 and KRX3.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

Stephen Bloom

FW: [Elecraft_K3] SO2R thoughts

Ooof .I completely spaced out the line in line out connections .yeah ..that
is a show stopper

73

Steve KL7SB

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:28 PM
To: [hidden email]; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] SO2R thoughts

> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio
> codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with
> it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.

With MK2R+ you ignore the internal CODEC and the USB connection - use
RS-232 for CAT and the normal ACC/Mic jacks for audio connections. The
overall issue with Kenwood is that it does not have a separate "mode"
for AFSK/PSK31 - you need to rely on the "digital band map" in microHAM
Router to distinguish between phone and digital. Sometimes that can be
a bit of an issue - e.g. 40 meters.

> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really
> intrigues me.

The KX3 is most certainly *not* a contest radio. Since it lacks FSK,
and dedicated line out/line in connections, microHAM does not support
the KX3 (or any other radio that lacks one or more required connections
like a serial CAT port, or separate analog line out, and analog line
in).

If it were me, the choice would be between the K3 and TS-590 ... and I
would lean toward the K3 due to the availability of P3 and KRX3.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> Hey all:
>
> I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for
> about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a
> Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA
and
> just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA
> is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but
still
> loud).
>
> With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really
> SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with
the
> KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs
> where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood
> TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The
three

> options I'm mulling over are ..
>
> 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,
> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
>
> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec
> (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I
> wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.
>
> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues

me.
> In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take
> portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv
> performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
> general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain
> all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if
there

> were any configuration issues
>
>
> Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks and 73
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>

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Rick Tavan N6XI

Re: FW: [Elecraft_K3] SO2R thoughts

If you can afford it, go for a second K3. No need for the sub-rx and some
of the other options. A pair of K3s is arguably the ultimate SO2R
configuration. At least for my pea brain, two identical radios is much
easier to handle than different ones, even ones as conceptually similar as
K3 and KX3.

Also, if you're ever interested in remote operation, one K3 can travel to
the remote control site when you're away from the main station.

Later, if portable operation is still of interest, buy a KX3 as well.
That's what I did and I'm very, very happy with it all.

/Rick

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Stephen Bloom <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ooof .I completely spaced out the line in line out connections .yeah ..that
> is a show stopper
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
>
>
>
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:28 PM
> To: [hidden email]; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] SO2R thoughts
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> > capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio
> > codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with
> > it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.
>
> With MK2R+ you ignore the internal CODEC and the USB connection - use
> RS-232 for CAT and the normal ACC/Mic jacks for audio connections. The
> overall issue with Kenwood is that it does not have a separate "mode"
> for AFSK/PSK31 - you need to rely on the "digital band map" in microHAM
> Router to distinguish between phone and digital. Sometimes that can be
> a bit of an issue - e.g. 40 meters.
>
> > 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really
> > intrigues me.
>
> The KX3 is most certainly *not* a contest radio. Since it lacks FSK,
> and dedicated line out/line in connections, microHAM does not support
> the KX3 (or any other radio that lacks one or more required connections
> like a serial CAT port, or separate analog line out, and analog line
> in).
>
> If it were me, the choice would be between the K3 and TS-590 ... and I
> would lean toward the K3 due to the availability of P3 and KRX3.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> > Hey all:
> >
> > I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for
> > about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a
> > Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA
> and
> > just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA
> > is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but
> still
> > loud).
> >
> > With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't
> really
> > SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with
> the
> > KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs
> > where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood
> > TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The
> three
> > options I'm mulling over are ..
> >
> > 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> > plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,
> > It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I
> find
> > the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
> >
> > 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> > capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio
> codec
> > (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but
> I
> > wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.
> >
> > 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues
> me.
> > In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take
> > portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv
> > performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
> > general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't
> chain
> > all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if
> there
> > were any configuration issues
> >
> >
> > Any input would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks and 73
> > Steve KL7SB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> __._,_.___
>
>
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Richard Thorne-4

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

Steve,

I'm going through the same exact issue as you. I currently have the
K3/P3/KAT500/KPA500 combo with a MK2R+ connected to it.

I already have an Ameritron AL-1200 for a backup amp (I'm working
anything I can hear with my K Line so I took the AL-1200 off line for now).

My plan is to get a 2nd rig and use my loaded K3 as the main radio in
combination with the AL-1200 amp. Since, in theory, I won't be jumping
around band to band with the main run rig tuning the AL-1200 won't be
that big a deal.

Now to your question on a 2nd rig. I went through the same exact
analysis as your doing comparing the K3, KX3 and TS-590. After
researching the KX3 it's lacking FSK and there is no direct support from
Microham for the rig, so I crossed it off the list. By the time you get
the KX3/amp combo you start approaching the cost of a basic K3. I
joined the Yahoo group for the TS-590 and there are a lot of issues,
apparently, with power spikes when the rig first transmits. That would
probably trip the KPA-500, the Expert amp or one of the high end auto
tune tube amps. I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the
2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving
manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list.

I've decided to target another basic K3 for my 2nd rig. I won't get
many options. Probably just the rig with a couple of 8 pole filters to
start with. I really think there is an advantage of having two
identical rigs from an operational stand point.

Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna
system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on
40, 80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on
the market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the
middle. There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices
of a few hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd
tower, so I'll have to go through a cost and operational comparison of
triplexers or a 2nd tower with antennas.

I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't
give me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two
rigs with one antenna system/amp for now.

In the mean time I'm having a blast with my K line. I worked VU4K on
10m and 15m ssb the last two evenings.

Rich - N5ZC

On 3/27/2014 9:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

Cady, Fred

Re: SO2R thoughts

Some thoughts inserted.
Cheers,
Fred KE7X

>>Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on 40, 80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on the market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the middle. There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices of a few hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd tower, so I'll have to go through a cost and operational comparison of triplexers or a 2nd tower with antennas.

You won't need a triplexer if you have two separate tribanders. Wouldn't a good solution be a cross-bar switch like a 6-pack or similar with decoders like a KRC2 to switch them? You would want band pass filters automatically switched too.

>>I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't give me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two rigs with one antenna system/amp for now.

I don't know much about that but when it is isolating the rig not transmitting wouldn't you lose the ability to listen on the second radio. That's a key advantage of SO2R over SO2V.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,

Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna
tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters.

> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.

Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long
contests.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: SO2R thoughts

Jim, like you, I have not experienced the harshness of the K3, but maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty have more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets, thus could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts

On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
> plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,

Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna
tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters.

> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.

Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long
contests.

73, Jim K9YC

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Stephen Bloom

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Richard Thorne-4

Hi Richard:

It sounds like we are on about the exact same page :) The biggest issue
here of course is money ...I've spent ..well I don't even want to guess how
much in the last year or so on ..the K3 Line ..plus the Expert Amp, plus an
IRLP Micronode and so on and so on. Sooner or later I'm going to end up
with another K3 for the remoting possibilities ..if nothing else. I'm not
patient enough I guess to order a basic model ..then pull the cover off and
add things as I go ...so my only option on that is to go as loaded as I'm
going to be and that's gonna end up costing 4 to 5K. KX3 is out for the
reasons you described. I've heard about the same issues you have as far as
ALC spikes. Supposedly there is a partial fix in firmware, and a promised
hardware fix ..but that promise has been out there for a couple of years.
I'm gonna try and dig up a contester or two who uses the 590 with a solid
state amp and see if they have issues.

I expect that ultimately ..I'll end up buying all three ..I want the KX3 to
play with for "holiday dxpedition" kinds of things (I operate from J7 once
in awhile, and in general travel a fair amount) and a K3 for general backup
and remoting). If the chances look good that I can reliably drive the amps
with the TS590 ..that will probably be the first purchase ...since ...well
..I can afford it!

BTW, I hate you! :) Now I'm looking at the 4O3A Triplexer and thinking
"Hmmm ..I wonder if there is enough RF isolation for it to work with my Log
Periodic." I don't have room for a second tower ..and really am pushing the
Wind Load Capacity of my guyed 70 feet of Rohn 25 with the LPDA and a
VHF/UHF beam. If I had a triplexer, it would make SO2R a lot more helpful
..since for now ..Radio 2 can only use my various wire antennas.

Have I mentioned just how much of a money suck this hobby is!

73
Steve KL7SB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Thorne
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 3:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts

Steve,

I'm going through the same exact issue as you. I currently have the
K3/P3/KAT500/KPA500 combo with a MK2R+ connected to it.

I already have an Ameritron AL-1200 for a backup amp (I'm working anything I
can hear with my K Line so I took the AL-1200 off line for now).

My plan is to get a 2nd rig and use my loaded K3 as the main radio in
combination with the AL-1200 amp. Since, in theory, I won't be jumping
around band to band with the main run rig tuning the AL-1200 won't be that
big a deal.

Now to your question on a 2nd rig. I went through the same exact analysis
as your doing comparing the K3, KX3 and TS-590. After researching the KX3
it's lacking FSK and there is no direct support from Microham for the rig,
so I crossed it off the list. By the time you get the KX3/amp combo you
start approaching the cost of a basic K3. I joined the Yahoo group for the
TS-590 and there are a lot of issues, apparently, with power spikes when the
rig first transmits. That would probably trip the KPA-500, the Expert amp
or one of the high end auto
tune tube amps. I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the
2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving
manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list.

I've decided to target another basic K3 for my 2nd rig. I won't get many
options. Probably just the rig with a couple of 8 pole filters to start
with. I really think there is an advantage of having two identical rigs
from an operational stand point.

Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna
system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on 40,
80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on the
market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the middle.
There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices of a few
hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd tower, so I'll
have to go through a cost and operational comparison of triplexers or a 2nd
tower with antennas.

I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't give
me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two rigs with
one antenna system/amp for now.

In the mean time I'm having a blast with my K line. I worked VU4K on 10m
and 15m ssb the last two evenings.

Rich - N5ZC

On 3/27/2014 9:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

> Hey all:
>
> I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+
> for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I
> wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought
> an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one
> clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter
> than most High Power amps but still loud).
>
> With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't
> really SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second
> rig with the
> KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest
> Qs where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a
> Kenwood
> TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The
> three options I'm mulling over are ..
>
> 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical
> xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside:
> Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like
> others, I find the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
>
> 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest
> capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio
> codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with
> it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+.
>
> 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues

me.

> In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take
> portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv
> performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in
> general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't
> chain all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it,
> and if there were any configuration issues
>
>
> Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks and 73
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: SO2R thoughts

Steve, re "Have I mentioned just how much of a
money suck this hobby is!", we all know -- and
also that this email reflector is dangerous :-)

Other things happen, too. A local ham recently
replaced his FTdx5000 with a K3/P3, then a week
later added KPA/KAT500. I had to go look at it
yesterday, so now I must have the amp, too.

Oh well, it's a great hobby!

73, Phil w7ox

On 3/28/14, 10:45 AM, Stephen Bloom wrote:

> Hi Richard:
>
> It sounds like we are on about the exact same page :) The biggest issue
> here of course is money ...I've spent ..well I don't even want to guess how
> much in the last year or so on ..the K3 Line ..plus the Expert Amp, plus an
> IRLP Micronode and so on and so on. Sooner or later I'm going to end up
> with another K3 for the remoting possibilities ..if nothing else. I'm not
> patient enough I guess to order a basic model ..then pull the cover off and
> add things as I go ...so my only option on that is to go as loaded as I'm
> going to be and that's gonna end up costing 4 to 5K. KX3 is out for the
> reasons you described. I've heard about the same issues you have as far as
> ALC spikes. Supposedly there is a partial fix in firmware, and a promised
> hardware fix ..but that promise has been out there for a couple of years.
> I'm gonna try and dig up a contester or two who uses the 590 with a solid
> state amp and see if they have issues.
>
> I expect that ultimately ..I'll end up buying all three ..I want the KX3 to
> play with for "holiday dxpedition" kinds of things (I operate from J7 once
> in awhile, and in general travel a fair amount) and a K3 for general backup
> and remoting). If the chances look good that I can reliably drive the amps
> with the TS590 ..that will probably be the first purchase ...since ...well
> ..I can afford it!
>
> BTW, I hate you! :) Now I'm looking at the 4O3A Triplexer and thinking
> "Hmmm ..I wonder if there is enough RF isolation for it to work with my Log
> Periodic." I don't have room for a second tower ..and really am pushing the
> Wind Load Capacity of my guyed 70 feet of Rohn 25 with the LPDA and a
> VHF/UHF beam. If I had a triplexer, it would make SO2R a lot more helpful
> ..since for now ..Radio 2 can only use my various wire antennas.
>
> Have I mentioned just how much of a money suck this hobby is!
>
> 73
> Steve KL7SB
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Cookie

> maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very
> drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty
> have more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets,
> thus could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio.

I've connected the front panel headphone output to an audio spectrum
analyzer good to over 25 KHz and seen no increase in the noise floor
(AF gain down) above the background -110 dB/hz at 100 Hz decreasing
to -130 dB/hz at 20 KHz. There is no "hump" and fewer than a half-
dozen spikes to -100 dB representing clock/digital leakage.

By way of comparison, with the AF gain control at normal listening
levels (between 9:00 ad 11:00) the background noise in the 200 - 4000
Hz range is -50 to -60 dB/hz (all referenced to 1V p-p) and the
response drops quickly to the -115 dB/hz range between 2700 and 4500 Hz
depending on the choice of roofing filter/DSP settings.

I can find *no* hint of "hiss" in the headphone audio of s/n 1450 ...
Yes, I can drive the headphone amplifier into distortion if I push
a -33 dBm signal into the antenna and turn the AF gain up well beyond
12:00 (as if I had inefficient headphones) but that's bordering on
abuse (still, it would be nice if the headphone amp were a bit more
"stout" than 100 mW/channel - particularly with the number of
headphones with greater 8 or 16 Ohm impedance - and the speaker
amplifier were a bit more than 3 W/channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/28/2014 1:44 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> Jim, like you, I have not experienced the harshness of the K3, but
maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very
drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty have
more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets, thus
could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio.

>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
> K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
>
>
> On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
>> another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs,
>> plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive,
>
> Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna
> tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters.
>
>> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
>> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
>
> Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long
> contests.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Richard Thorne-4

I went thru much of the same when I moved on from TT Orion --

FWIW another top contester K6LL uses a pair of K3 in SO2R.

In fact I am pretty sure he told me he does not have the sub rx in either
but that was sometime ago.

He and N5IC are as good as they come.

Hank K7HP

I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the
> 2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving
> manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list.
>

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alorona

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

> 1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive,
> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.

Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard.

It makes me wonder if folks are making judicious use of the many tools available to make a K3 sound good.

The RF Gain needs to be backed off and the RX EQ adjusted to compensate for your ears, your speakers or headphones, your bandwidth, your room, and your mood. Same with HI and LO cut. You may have the bandwidth too wide (or too narrow) for the purpose. Just because somebody says that 2.8 kHz or 1.8 kHz is the 'right' bandwidth means nothing.

The AGC system allows a wide range of settings that make big differences. A good hour is required to set it up properly. I suspect many don't know how or haven't bothered. Their opinions are worthless to me.

IN GENERAL -- I'm generalizing here-- in general, you will have the ATT engaged and/or your RF Gain backed off of max; your RX EQ will be something other than flat; you will have spent a day dialing in your AGC settings. If not, your K3 is probably not set to the optimum. I'm not saying anything new here.

Someone should set up a place where we can upload recordings made with a K3 to dispel this continuing myth that the K3 is 'noisy', 'harsh', 'fatiguing', etc. And sorry, YouTube videos made by pointing a camera at a K3 and picking up room sound do *not* count.

On the other hand, if you participate in contests, most contesters' audio is so bad that, yes, I can understand your fatigue during a contest.

Al W6LX
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Stephen Bloom

Re: SO2R thoughts

You may well be correct. As the sort of endless discussion :) has shown
...a lot of audio issues ..especially something like "fatigue" is pretty
subjective and I guarantee I haven't gotten the various adjustments "just
so." I find it more of an issue on SSB than CW and it is something you see
on some of the eHam reviews. I find W4TV's measurements persuasive as
opposed to others (or my own) anecdotal experiences, so I'll play around
with settings some more.

73
Steve KL7SB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al Lorona
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:24 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts

> 1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have
> different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be
> kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.

Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard.

It makes me wonder if folks are making judicious use of the many tools
available to make a K3 sound good.

The RF Gain needs to be backed off and the RX EQ adjusted to compensate for
your ears, your speakers or headphones, your bandwidth, your room, and your
mood. Same with HI and LO cut. You may have the bandwidth too wide (or too
narrow) for the purpose. Just because somebody says that 2.8 kHz or 1.8
kHz is the 'right' bandwidth means nothing.

The AGC system allows a wide range of settings that make big differences. A
good hour is required to set it up properly. I suspect many don't know how
or haven't bothered. Their opinions are worthless to me.

IN GENERAL -- I'm generalizing here-- in general, you will have the ATT
engaged and/or your RF Gain backed off of max; your RX EQ will be something
other than flat; you will have spent a day dialing in your AGC settings. If
not, your K3 is probably not set to the optimum. I'm not saying anything new
here.

Someone should set up a place where we can upload recordings made with a K3
to dispel this continuing myth that the K3 is 'noisy', 'harsh', 'fatiguing',
etc. And sorry, YouTube videos made by pointing a camera at a K3 and picking
up room sound do *not* count.

On the other hand, if you participate in contests, most contesters' audio is
so bad that, yes, I can understand your fatigue during a contest.

Al W6LX
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Jim Brown-10

Re: SO2R thoughts

On 3/30/2014 10:38 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> especially something like "fatigue" is pretty subjective

As a retired pro audio engineer and member of both the AES and the
Acoustical Society, I've had to understand issues like this. The study
of human perception and reaction to sound is called psychoacoustics, and
the Acoustical Society has many members studying this stuff at very high
levels.

It is VERY well known that listening fatigue related to the listening
system correlates with two factors -- distortion and loudness. Poor
spectral balance is a form of distortion, but the most obnoxious
distortions are non-linear distortion -- what we try to describe as
harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion -- and distortions
associated with A/D and D/A conversions.

As Al Lorona has noted, the distortion produced in ANY system is
strongly related to signal levels, and how gains are set. Do it wrong
and you can make things sound nasty in a hurry; do it well and
everything is mellow. if you think your radio is fatiguing, you probably
don't know about all that great stuff that Al posted. As to the digital
distortions -- much of what we hear occurs if we are listening too close
to the the top or bottom of the converters. Again, getting the gains set
right avoids that.

I measured my first K3 (in the first year of production) and found
excessive distortion in the Line Outputs that resulted from wrong-headed
design of the output stage (it was done by a digital guy, who added
resistors between the output stage and the transformer because he
incorrectly thought audio stages were"600 ohms" -- they have not been
for at least 50 years). I communicated that to Wayne, and it was
quickly corrected.

73, Jim K9YC
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Chester Alderman

Re: SO2R thoughts

Jim.....

Last week I had two audio test performed, performed by two different
persons, on my hearing. Do you think it would be advantageous for one to use
their audiogram plots to set the receive equalization in the K3? At age 75
(and spending years on a Nave aircraft carrier) of course my low frequency
range is 'normal' and then my high frequency, starting around 800 Hz starts
dropping drastically. I do have some doubts about these audio test because
if your hearing is 'good', they have no way of selling their over-expensive
hearing aids.

73,
Tom - W4BQF

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts

On 3/30/2014 10:38 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> especially something like "fatigue" is pretty subjective

As a retired pro audio engineer and member of both the AES and the
Acoustical Society, I've had to understand issues like this. The study of
human perception and reaction to sound is called psychoacoustics, and the
Acoustical Society has many members studying this stuff at very high levels.

It is VERY well known that listening fatigue related to the listening system
correlates with two factors -- distortion and loudness. Poor spectral
balance is a form of distortion, but the most obnoxious distortions are
non-linear distortion -- what we try to describe as harmonic distortion and
intermodulation distortion -- and distortions associated with A/D and D/A
conversions.

As Al Lorona has noted, the distortion produced in ANY system is strongly
related to signal levels, and how gains are set. Do it wrong and you can
make things sound nasty in a hurry; do it well and everything is mellow. if
you think your radio is fatiguing, you probably don't know about all that
great stuff that Al posted. As to the digital distortions -- much of what
we hear occurs if we are listening too close to the the top or bottom of the
converters. Again, getting the gains set right avoids that.

I measured my first K3 (in the first year of production) and found excessive
distortion in the Line Outputs that resulted from wrong-headed design of the
output stage (it was done by a digital guy, who added resistors between the
output stage and the transformer because he incorrectly thought audio stages
were"600 ohms" -- they have not been for at least 50 years). I communicated
that to Wayne, and it was quickly corrected.

73, Jim K9YC
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: SO2R thoughts

In reply to this post by alorona

I agree, Al. Mine may have a slight speaker
resonance (not sure, only heard it once) but not a
big deal since earphones are not affected.

Phil W7OX

On 3/30/14, 10:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:
>> 1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive,
>> It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find
>> the K3 can be kind of "harsh" to listen to for many hours.
> Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard.
>
> Al W6LX
>
>

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