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Shack equipment noise

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Keith Heimbold

Shack equipment noise

Wayne-

I am a bit embarrassed about something that just happened in my shack because i think i just blew up my external 6m preamp.

I was putting in line my six meter preamp and using a db15 Y connector with my Yaesu Quadra amp on the other connector. I was not transmitting and just getting it connected and then I heard a super loud pop.

I disconnected eveything and then tested the transceiver and the amp. The K3 is fine but the amp was locked. I turned off the amp and restarted it and and it was fine. I reconnected the preamp and put the antenna in direct line with the K3 disconnecting it from the amp. The preamp when energizes reduces the signal strength. I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate the noise source because I had my headset on. For sure it was working for about 20 seconds and then the pop occurred. It scared my dogs and myself it was so loud.

I am not sure how I can test the preamp to see if it indeed blown. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Keith
AG6AZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos
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Mark Bayern

Re: Shack equipment noise

You could open it up and see if any 'spare' parts fall out, or if any
of the components on the board look like they have let out their magic
smoke. Missing/blackened traces on the PC board would also be a
telltale sign.

(I am assuming that any failure that actually created a loud noise
ought to be visible.)

Mark AD5SS

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Keith Heimbold <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wayne-
>
> I am a bit embarrassed about something that just happened in my shack because i think i just blew up my external 6m preamp.
>
> I was putting in line my six meter preamp and using a db15 Y connector with my Yaesu Quadra amp on the other connector. I was not transmitting and just getting it connected and then I heard a super loud pop.
>
> I disconnected eveything and then tested the transceiver and the amp. The K3 is fine but the amp was locked. I turned off the amp and restarted it and and it was fine. I reconnected the preamp and put the antenna in direct line with the K3 disconnecting it from the amp. The preamp when energizes reduces the signal strength. I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate the noise source because I had my headset on. For sure it was working for about 20 seconds and then the pop occurred. It scared my dogs and myself it was so loud.
>
> I am not sure how I can test the preamp to see if it indeed blown. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith
> AG6AZ
>

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Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Hi Mark,

There is nothing physical like burn or open visible to the eye.I will probably try connecting it to an external power supply and see if that fixes the issue.

Whatever happened it was loud. I wonder if the Y connectors are flawed because I was also going to hook up my LP Panadapter later that I just received.

This is freaking me out a little. I love that rig.

Thanks,

Keith
AG6AZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 2:17 PM, "Mark Bayern" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could open it up and see if any 'spare' parts fall out, or if any
> of the components on the board look like they have let out their magic
> smoke. Missing/blackened traces on the PC board would also be a
> telltale sign.
>
> (I am assuming that any failure that actually created a loud noise
> ought to be visible.)
>
> Mark AD5SS
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Keith Heimbold <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Wayne-
>>
>> I am a bit embarrassed about something that just happened in my shack because i think i just blew up my external 6m preamp.
>>
>> I was putting in line my six meter preamp and using a db15 Y connector with my Yaesu Quadra amp on the other connector. I was not transmitting and just getting it connected and then I heard a super loud pop.
>>
>> I disconnected eveything and then tested the transceiver and the amp. The K3 is fine but the amp was locked. I turned off the amp and restarted it and and it was fine. I reconnected the preamp and put the antenna in direct line with the K3 disconnecting it from the amp. The preamp when energizes reduces the signal strength. I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate the noise source because I had my headset on. For sure it was working for about 20 seconds and then the pop occurred. It scared my dogs and myself it was so loud.
>>
>> I am not sure how I can test the preamp to see if it indeed blown. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Keith
>> AG6AZ
>>

k6dgw

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Keith Heimbold

Keith, please tell all of us your headphones were *not* plugged in when
you had them on and were plugging and unplugging stuff ... we all want
live Elecrafters.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 12/10/2011 1:25 PM, Keith Heimbold wrote:

> I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate
> the noise source because I had my headset on.
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Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Fred,

I had them on. Bad idea. I will be more careful.

Thanks,

Keith

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Keith, please tell all of us your headphones were *not* plugged in when
> you had them on and were plugging and unplugging stuff ... we all want
> live Elecrafters.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 12/10/2011 1:25 PM, Keith Heimbold wrote:
>
>> I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate
>> the noise source because I had my headset on.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by k6dgw

I had to have them off for part of it but def had them on when I put on the preamp.

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by k6dgw

I did deenergize the equipment during the install. Anyway, something is wrong and more troubleshooting is needed.

Thanks,

Keith

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Wiley-2

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Keith Heimbold

May not have been your radio at all, but instead might have been a
"surge protected" multiple AC outlet box. I have a few Tripp-Lite
"Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
VERY loud bang! Fooled me for a while until I figured out what was
happening. Sounds like some has let off a .22 rifle shot under the
operating bench. Dissipating the energy from a big surge take some
doing, and the result is often a very loud bang. Might that have been
what you heard?

- Jim, KL7CC

Keith Heimbold wrote:

Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Thanks Jim. The preamp is still not functioning but that does describe the sound.

Keith

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 6:04 PM, "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> May not have been your radio at all, but instead might have been a "surge protected" multiple AC outlet box. I have a few Tripp-Lite "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a VERY loud bang! Fooled me for a while until I figured out what was happening. Sounds like some has let off a .22 rifle shot under the operating bench. Dissipating the energy from a big surge take some doing, and the result is often a very loud bang. Might that have been what you heard?
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> Keith Heimbold wrote:
>> Wayne-
>>
>> I am a bit embarrassed about something that just happened in my shack because i think i just blew up my external 6m preamp.
>> I was putting in line my six meter preamp and using a db15 Y connector with my Yaesu Quadra amp on the other connector. I was not transmitting and just getting it connected and then I heard a super loud pop.
>>
>> I disconnected eveything and then tested the transceiver and the amp. The K3 is fine but the amp was locked. I turned off the amp and restarted it and and it was fine. I reconnected the preamp and put the antenna in direct line with the K3 disconnecting it from the amp. The preamp when energizes reduces the signal strength. I think the pop came from the preamp. It is hard for me to isolate the noise source because I had my headset on. For sure it was working for about 20 seconds and then the pop occurred. It scared my dogs and myself it was so loud.
>>
>> I am not sure how I can test the preamp to see if it indeed blown. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Keith
>> AG6AZ
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>

Alan Slusher-2

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley-2

If this is the case one would need to open the outlet box and replace the
"exploded" MOVs.
Or purchase a new outlet strip, open it up, and install an MOV across each
pair of wires (three in all). Try Radio Shack.

Cheers,

Alan V31FA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]>
To: "Keith Heimbold" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Shack equipment noise

> May not have been your radio at all, but instead might have been a
> "surge protected" multiple AC outlet box. I have a few Tripp-Lite
> "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
> VERY loud bang! Fooled me for a while until I figured out what was
> happening. Sounds like some has let off a .22 rifle shot under the
> operating bench. Dissipating the energy from a big surge take some
> doing, and the result is often a very loud bang. Might that have been
> what you heard?
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
>
> Keith Heimbold wrote:
>> Wayne-
>>
>> I am a bit embarrassed about something that just happened in my shack
>> because i think i just blew up my external 6m preamp.
>>
>> I was putting in line my six meter preamp and using a db15 Y connector
>> with my Yaesu Quadra amp on the other connector. I was not transmitting
>> and just getting it connected and then I heard a super loud pop.
>>
>> I disconnected eveything and then tested the transceiver and the amp.
>> The K3 is fine but the amp was locked. I turned off the amp and restarted
>> it and and it was fine. I reconnected the preamp and put the antenna in
>> direct line with the K3 disconnecting it from the amp. The preamp when
>> energizes reduces the signal strength. I think the pop came from the
>> preamp. It is hard for me to isolate the noise source because I had my
>> headset on. For sure it was working for about 20 seconds and then the pop
>> occurred. It scared my dogs and myself it was so loud.
>>
>> I am not sure how I can test the preamp to see if it indeed blown. Any
>> thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Keith
>> AG6AZ
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Alan Slusher-2

Re: Shack equipment noise

The Radio Shack part number for the MOVs is: 276-0568.
Three wires in the outlet strip. Solder an MOV across each pair of the three
wires.

Alan V31FA

----- Original Message -----

> If this is the case one would need to open the outlet box and replace the
> "exploded" MOVs.
> Or purchase a new outlet strip, open it up, and install an MOV across each
> pair of wires (three in all). Try Radio Shack.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan V31FA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Keith Heimbold" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Shack equipment noise
>
>
>> May not have been your radio at all, but instead might have been a
>> "surge protected" multiple AC outlet box. I have a few Tripp-Lite
>> "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
>> VERY loud bang! Fooled me for a while until I figured out what was
>> happening. Sounds like some has let off a .22 rifle shot under the
>> operating bench. Dissipating the energy from a big surge take some
>> doing, and the result is often a very loud bang. Might that have been
>> what you heard?
>>
>>

Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Thanks, Alan. Appreciate it greatly.

Keith

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 7:37 PM, "Alan Slusher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Radio Shack part number for the MOVs is: 276-0568.
> Three wires in the outlet strip. Solder an MOV across each pair of the three wires.
>
> Alan V31FA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> If this is the case one would need to open the outlet box and replace the
>> "exploded" MOVs.
>> Or purchase a new outlet strip, open it up, and install an MOV across each
>> pair of wires (three in all). Try Radio Shack.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alan V31FA
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Keith Heimbold" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Shack equipment noise
>>
>>
>>> May not have been your radio at all, but instead might have been a
>>> "surge protected" multiple AC outlet box. I have a few Tripp-Lite
>>> "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
>>> VERY loud bang! Fooled me for a while until I figured out what was
>>> happening. Sounds like some has let off a .22 rifle shot under the
>>> operating bench. Dissipating the energy from a big surge take some
>>> doing, and the result is often a very loud bang. Might that have been
>>> what you heard?
>>>
>>>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley-2

On 12/10/2011 6:02 PM, Jim Wiley wrote:
> I have a few Tripp-Lite
> "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
> VERY loud bang!

That very loud bang is almost certainly the MOV failing (and they fail
destructively).

73, Jim K9YC
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Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Thanks for the information. I will make sure to do a full diagnostic tomorrow on the power supplies and strips.

Keith

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 8:42 PM, "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/10/2011 6:02 PM, Jim Wiley wrote:
>> I have a few Tripp-Lite
>> "Isobar" outlet boxes, and if they "catch" a surge, they will make a
>> VERY loud bang!
>
> That very loud bang is almost certainly the MOV failing (and they fail
> destructively).
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim & Crew,

I bought new 4070 joule APC surge protectors with $150k guarantee (whatever that means). A fellow colleague responded to me separately about the issue with the 6m preamp and I am sorting out deal. It appears that the preamp may not like the Y connector while it is connected to the Yaesu Quadra (or similar amp). As I learn more, I will report what I find as it may be useful to someone else.

Regards,

Keith
AG6AZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 10, 2011, at 8:42 PM, "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: Shack equipment noise

On 12/11/2011 1:50 PM, Keith Heimbold wrote:
> I bought new 4070 joule APC surge protectors with $150k guarantee (whatever that means).

It means nothing. Shunt mode surge protectors (MOVs) at branch outlets
can cause more problems than they solve. The only safe place for an MOV
is as part of a whole house protector, properly installed at the service
entrance. If you want to use a protector on a branch circuit, it should
be a Series Mode unit.

See www.surgex.com and www.brickwall.com for Series Mode surge protectors.

73, Jim K9YC
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Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

Thanks, Jim for the advice. Appreciate it.

Best Regards,

Keith
AG6AZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:45 PM, "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/11/2011 1:50 PM, Keith Heimbold wrote:
>> I bought new 4070 joule APC surge protectors with $150k guarantee (whatever that means).
>
> It means nothing. Shunt mode surge protectors (MOVs) at branch outlets
> can cause more problems than they solve. The only safe place for an MOV
> is as part of a whole house protector, properly installed at the service
> entrance. If you want to use a protector on a branch circuit, it should
> be a Series Mode unit.
>
> See www.surgex.com and www.brickwall.com for Series Mode surge protectors.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

"Carl, WCØV"

Re: Shack equipment noise

In reply to this post by Keith Heimbold

What isn't mentioned is the fact that MOVs are rated by the TOTAL energy
in Joules that they will absorb in their lifetime before they fail. The
energy absorbed from spikes is cumulative and when the rating is
exceeded, boom.
They are also responsible for nasty noise generated by the crowbar
action on the spikes in making them square waves - the sum of all
possible harmonics. I
used to have to deal with these things when customers would use them
in front of servoamplifiers. The noise from the square waves drove us
crazy until we found the MOVs and removed them.

--
73.14159, Carl WCØV

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Shack equipment noise

On 12/12/2011 9:04 AM, "Carl, WCØV" wrote:

> What isn't mentioned is the fact that MOVs are rated by the TOTAL energy
> in Joules that they will absorb in their lifetime before they fail. The
> energy absorbed from spikes is cumulative and when the rating is
> exceeded, boom.
> They are also responsible for nasty noise generated by the crowbar
> action on the spikes in making them square waves - the sum of all
> possible harmonics. I
> used to have to deal with these things when customers would use them
> in front of servoamplifiers. The noise from the square waves drove us
> crazy until we found the MOVs and removed them.

YES! We learned about this in the pro audio world as well, and did the
same thing to search out and destroy them. And yes, they are insidious,
in everything from copy machines to printers and even power supplies. I
found some in an Astron power supply when they failed.

The WORST thing about MOV-based protectors is that they CAUSE
destructive failures of equipment that is interconnected by low voltage
wiring when that equipment is plugged into different power outlets, even
when all of the outlets are "protected." That's because they dump the
surge into the green wire that serves each outlet, the length, and thus
the voltage drop due to the surge to each outlet is different, and the
DIFFERENCE blows up the equipment. That's why MOVs are ONLY a good
thing at the service entrance.

73, Jim Brown K9YC
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Keith Heimbold

Re: Shack equipment noise

I will confer with my electrician as I just had major electrical upgrade completed in January. I was planning to get a dedicated 240V line installed anyway.

Thanks,

Keith
AG6AZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:17 AM, "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 9:04 AM, "Carl, WCØV" wrote:
>> What isn't mentioned is the fact that MOVs are rated by the TOTAL energy
>> in Joules that they will absorb in their lifetime before they fail. The
>> energy absorbed from spikes is cumulative and when the rating is
>> exceeded, boom.
>> They are also responsible for nasty noise generated by the crowbar
>> action on the spikes in making them square waves - the sum of all
>> possible harmonics. I
>> used to have to deal with these things when customers would use them
>> in front of servoamplifiers. The noise from the square waves drove us
>> crazy until we found the MOVs and removed them.
>
> YES! We learned about this in the pro audio world as well, and did the
> same thing to search out and destroy them. And yes, they are insidious,
> in everything from copy machines to printers and even power supplies. I
> found some in an Astron power supply when they failed.
>
> The WORST thing about MOV-based protectors is that they CAUSE
> destructive failures of equipment that is interconnected by low voltage
> wiring when that equipment is plugged into different power outlets, even
> when all of the outlets are "protected." That's because they dump the
> surge into the green wire that serves each outlet, the length, and thus
> the voltage drop due to the surge to each outlet is different, and the
> DIFFERENCE blows up the equipment. That's why MOVs are ONLY a good
> thing at the service entrance.
>
> 73, Jim Brown K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html