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Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

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wayne burdick

Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

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Rob has added the IC-7851, IC-7300, and IC-9100 to his table:

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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EUGENE GABRY

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

:) Best darn investment I ever made on a ham radio! Keep the hits coming Elecraft!

73
Gene, N9TF
K3S 10057
P3

----- Original Message -----

From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 9:55:57 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Rob has added the IC-7851, IC-7300, and IC-9100 to his table:

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Very interesting ... pretty good performance from the IC-7300 for an
"entry level radio." On the other hand, the IC-9100 should be better
than "mid pack" given it's recent design and price - it's even *worse*
(both IMD and LO Noise) that that paragon of "high performance," the
IC-706mkIIg!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/25/2016 10:55 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Rob has added the IC-7851, IC-7300, and IC-9100 to his table:
>
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bill Frantz

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

A quick Google shows a number of reputable dealers selling the
IC-7300 for $1500. It has an impressive set of features
including a bandscope, 100W, and a tuner.

Compare that with a KX3 at $1850 -- $1250 for radio and tuner
plus $600 for the PX3. You can save $200 by getting the kits.
With the KX3/PX3 you get better specs, more portability, and
PSK31/63 encode/decode[1]. But you only get 10 or so watts.
Going to 100W will add $1180 (minus $50 for the kit), putting
the KX3 system into an entirely different price category.

73 Bill AE6JV

[1] I just did a quick eyeball differences test on the features.
I well may have missed somethings of real importance.

On 4/25/16 at 11:55 AM, [hidden email] (Joe Subich, W4TV) wrote:

>Very interesting ... pretty good performance from the IC-7300 for an
>"entry level radio."

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N1EU

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

fwiw, 3 issues concern me about the 7300:

1. Some IC7300 recordings I've downloaded indicated very low AGC Threshold
and limited audio dynamic range. There's no control over threshold and
slope. I haven't read about any seasoned users fiddling with gain settings
to try and milk more audio dynamic range and higher threshold out of the
7300.

2. Reports are that something is "broken" with the IP+ implementation -
noise floor increases greatly. And without IP+, DR is limited as the
sherweng.com table shows. My understanding is that IP+ use is sometimes
necessary to avoid OVF (ADC overflow). This is a 14-bit ADC.

3. There still seems to be discussion on whether or not the 7300 can
produce power spikes in ssb

Looks like a good first effort in direct sampling design from Icom. I'll
wait for their second try.

73, Barry N1EU

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

lstavenhagen

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Wow, looks like Icom finally made a radio with performance close to the humble K3S and K3 + new synth.... but also looks like you really got to pay 'em for finally doing it, at nearly 13 grand for the 7851!

But the 7300 looks actually pretty decent performance-wise, so interesting surprise at that price point.

73,
LS
W5QD

Grant Youngman

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

I think your comparison misses the entire point of the KX3. But in any case, you’re welcome to the 7300 I won’t be purchasing or throwing (all 10 lbs of it plus batteries) into my backpack for a walk to the park … :-)

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

>
>
> A quick Google shows a number of reputable dealers selling the IC-7300 for $1500. It has an impressive set of features including a bandscope, 100W, and a tuner.
>
> Compare that with a KX3 at $1850 -- $1250 for radio and tuner plus $600 for the PX3. You can save $200 by getting the kits. With the KX3/PX3 you get better specs, more portability, and PSK31/63 encode/decode[1]. But you only get 10 or so watts. Going to 100W will add $1180 (minus $50 for the kit), putting the KX3 system into an entirely different price category.
>

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Dave Hachadorian-2

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

It's interesting that the 7300's ranking in the table is because
of its 94 dB Dynamic Range at 2 KHz spacing. But the footnotes
indicate that this dynamic range is with AP+ turned ON. With AP+
ON, minimum detectable signal is degraded by 11 dB.

With AP+ OFF, as generally recommended in the footnotes, 2 KHz
dynamic range is only 81 dB, which would place the 7300
considerably lower in the table, but still pretty good.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table
updated

Very interesting ... pretty good performance from the IC-7300 for
an
"entry level radio." On the other hand, the IC-9100 should be
better
than "mid pack" given it's recent design and price - it's even
*worse*
(both IMD and LO Noise) that that paragon of "high performance,"
the
IC-706mkIIg!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/25/2016 10:55 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

This is interesting to follow but well above my full understanding...
But how do we come up with a common standard between the two types of
radios (although I expect direct sample to improve to a point to become
common)?

Further from Rob (since we're off topic here):

-=-=-=-=-=-

How to rank direct-sampling SDR radios is a real can of worms. If you
look at the review in the May QST of the Elad DUO, you will see the only
dynamic-range data is listed as “Best Case”. There is no “typical case”
or “worst case” data, and the “best case” dynamic range (DR3) of 99 dB
was obtained with a third strong “incidental dither” signal. That
strong “incidental dither” signal may or may not be there when you need it.

In the case of the 7300, on the lower bands, 160 – 40 meters, the
increased noise floor caused by enabling IP+ would not be an issue.
Nighttime 40 meter band noise is about -100 dBm, and the noise floor of
the 7300 with IP+ ON is about -122 dBm. If 40-meter AM broadcast
stations above 7200 are stressing the radio, IP+ will be a good
solution. On the other hand, if one is on 15, 12, 10 or 6 meters, the
noise floor of the radio with IP+ ON may be about equal to band noise in
a rural environment. All bets are off in an urban environment, due to
all the local RFI. In some cases on the higher HF bands, receiver noise
will be higher than band noise with IP+. That is why I made the caution
to not just turn IP+ ON and leave it there. Of course in a foot note I
don’t have unlimited space to explain all this.

The dynamic-range data is all there, IP+ both ON and OFF. It is similar
to my KX3 data and footnotes. The dynamic range is high, but because
the opposite sideband rejection is limited to about 65 dB, in some cases
that limitation will dominate. Thus three values of dynamic range are
in the table, explained by the foot notes.

The same concern can be lodged about the original K3 data where dynamic
range (DR3) is listed as 101, 96 and 95 dB, with foot notes. The DR3
due to RMDR is higher with a 200-Hz bandwidth than with a 500-Hz
bandwidth. In effect the radio is ranked assuming one is operating the
radio in its best configuration.

One other note, even though the close-in dynamic range data is mainly
applicable to CW operation due to the narrower transmitted bandwidth of
CW stations, an SSB only operator may assume that level of performance
applies to him, too. In reality on SSB, transmitted IMD splatter of an
adjacent channel signal (3 kHz away) is usually the limit in copy of a
weak station. The radio is rarely the limit in this case, as splatter
is usually worse than the dynamic range of the radio.

-=-=-=-=-

And later...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

No, IP+ is not an attenuator. It enables “dither” and “random” on the
ADC chip. The Apache ANAN series also has dither and random as an
option, but in the case of newer ANAN-200D transceivers, the noise floor
is not degraded. Older 100D and 200D units did have an 11 to 13 dB
noise floor degradations.

Clarity is important, so thanks for the chance to expand on this issue.

73, Rob, NC0B

-=-=-=-
Rick nhc

On 4/25/2016 1:44 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

> It's interesting that the 7300's ranking in the table is because of
> its 94 dB Dynamic Range at 2 KHz spacing. But the footnotes indicate
> that this dynamic range is with AP+ turned ON. With AP+ ON, minimum
> detectable signal is degraded by 11 dB.
>
> With AP+ OFF, as generally recommended in the footnotes, 2 KHz dynamic
> range is only 81 dB, which would place the 7300 considerably lower in
> the table, but still pretty good.
>
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, AZ

Bill Frantz

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman

I have no plans to replace my KX3/PX3 with a IC-7300. But I
still don't have 100W for it. At home, I use my K3/100 and on
the road I'm QRP.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/25/16 at 1:44 PM, [hidden email] (GRANT YOUNGMAN) wrote:

>I think your comparison misses the entire point of the KX3.
>But in any case, you’re welcome to the 7300 I won’t be
>purchasing or throwing (all 10 lbs of it plus batteries) into
>my backpack for a walk to the park … :-)
>
>Grant NQ5T
>K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
>

>>
>>
>>A quick Google shows a number of reputable dealers selling the IC-7300 for $1500. It has an
>impressive set of features including a bandscope, 100W, and a tuner.
>>
>>Compare that with a KX3 at $1850 -- $1250 for radio and tuner plus $600 for the PX3. You can save
>$200 by getting the kits. With the KX3/PX3 you get better
>specs, more portability, and PSK31/63 encode/decode[1]. But you
>only get 10 or so watts. Going to 100W will add $1180 (minus
>$50 for the kit), putting the KX3 system into an entirely
>different price category.

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CA 95032

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NC3Z Gary

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

True a fully kitted KX3 station will be about $3000, but the KX3 is
really a different animal. There is a lot of flexibility with a KX3
station. For emergency power operation the KX3 draws a lot less power on
receive.

One key feature is Elecraft themselves, somewhat regular firmware (and
hardware) updates that improve performance and add features, and all
this on a product that may be several years old. Other radio
manufacturers are notorious for not providing updates after a relatively
short period of time.

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15

On 25-Apr-16 15:35, Bill Frantz wrote:

>
> Compare that with a KX3 at $1850 -- $1250 for radio and tuner plus $600
> for the PX3. You can save $200 by getting the kits. With the KX3/PX3 you
> get better specs, more portability, and PSK31/63 encode/decode[1]. But
> you only get 10 or so watts. Going to 100W will add $1180 (minus $50 for
> the kit), putting the KX3 system into an entirely different price category.
>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by Dave Hachadorian-2

On 4/25/2016 4:44 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
> It's interesting that the 7300's ranking in the table is because of its
> 94 dB Dynamic Range at 2 KHz spacing. But the footnotes indicate that
> this dynamic range is with AP+ turned ON. With AP+ ON, minimum
> detectable signal is degraded by 11 dB.

That's true of *every* direct sampling SDR in the list. That's the
"dirty little secret" of direct sampling SDRs ... in order to maintain
that "pristine" IMD DR the "total signal level" or instantaneous peak
voltage at the ADC must stay below the clipping/overflow level.

Look at the ARRL review of the Flex 6700 and 6300 ... compare their
MDS with the preamps on and preamps off, then look at the IMD DR
with the preamps on and off (where the data is available). Even for
the Flex, MDS is degraded by 10 to 15 dB in order to maintain the full
dynamic range (not much different than the 7300).

Direct sampling disciples will claim the MDS reduction is not a problem
but try running one of their radios within a couple miles of an AM
station with "slice receivers" on more than one amateur band (so the
preselector/bandpass filters are bypassed).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

>
> With AP+ OFF, as generally recommended in the footnotes, 2 KHz dynamic
> range is only 81 dB, which would place the 7300 considerably lower in
> the table, but still pretty good.
>
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, AZ
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:55 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
>
> Very interesting ... pretty good performance from the IC-7300 for an
> "entry level radio." On the other hand, the IC-9100 should be better
> than "mid pack" given it's recent design and price - it's even *worse*
> (both IMD and LO Noise) that that paragon of "high performance," the
> IC-706mkIIg!
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 4/25/2016 10:55 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Rob has added the IC-7851, IC-7300, and IC-9100 to his table:
>>
>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

wb4jfi

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

While I don't disagree with the possibility of your first paragraph Joe,
your third one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Firstly, the K3/K3S (without the second receiver) cannot be on more than ONE
amateur band at a time. So, why create an artificial "test" that the
typical K3 can't even do? I believe that most K3/K3S out there don't have
the second receiver. Plus, the K3/K3S cannot listen to three (or more)
bands at once, which the 6500 and 6700 can.

Secondly, I wonder how good the K3/K3S would be if you also pulled their
front-end filtering?

I'm still very much an Elecraft fan with both a K3 and a KX3, so I'm not
disparaging the Elecraft equipment at all. I LOVE THEM! I just want apples
vs apples, please.

BTW, I have an AM station within a couple of miles - directly line-of-sight
down the river, and I don't see this alleged problem at all. But, I'm only
using dipoles, a Steppir vertical, or a 50-ohm resistor for antennas. Hi Hi.
I do see this problem with several 8- or 12-bit SDR designs without
high-pass filtering, but with a filter, it goes away. 14-bit ADCs aren't
showing this problem here, even without the HPF.
73, Terry, N4TLF

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

On 4/25/2016 4:44 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
> It's interesting that the 7300's ranking in the table is because of its
> 94 dB Dynamic Range at 2 KHz spacing. But the footnotes indicate that
> this dynamic range is with AP+ turned ON. With AP+ ON, minimum
> detectable signal is degraded by 11 dB.

That's true of *every* direct sampling SDR in the list. That's the
"dirty little secret" of direct sampling SDRs ... in order to maintain
that "pristine" IMD DR the "total signal level" or instantaneous peak
voltage at the ADC must stay below the clipping/overflow level.

Look at the ARRL review of the Flex 6700 and 6300 ... compare their
MDS with the preamps on and preamps off, then look at the IMD DR
with the preamps on and off (where the data is available). Even for
the Flex, MDS is degraded by 10 to 15 dB in order to maintain the full
dynamic range (not much different than the 7300).

Direct sampling disciples will claim the MDS reduction is not a problem
but try running one of their radios within a couple miles of an AM
station with "slice receivers" on more than one amateur band (so the
preselector/bandpass filters are bypassed).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

On Mon,4/25/2016 1:34 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:
> Wow, looks like Icom finally made a radio with performance close to the
> humble K3S and K3 + new synth.... but also looks like you really got to pay
> 'em for finally doing it, at nearly 13 grand for the 7851!

Don't be so quick to declare either of these products winners -- Rob's
RX measurements are only a small part of what defines the quality of a
radio. ICOM (and Yaesu) have a long history of producing radios with
rather wide CW signals, including all the current products that ARRL has
measured.

73, Jim K9YC
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wayne burdick

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Administrator

> Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon,4/25/2016 1:34 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:
>> Wow, looks like Icom finally made a radio with performance close to the
>> humble K3S and K3 + new synth.... but also looks like you really got to pay
>> 'em for finally doing it, at nearly 13 grand for the 7851!
>
> Don't be so quick to declare either of these products winners -- Rob's RX measurements are only a small part of what defines the quality of a radio. ICOM (and Yaesu) have a long history of producing radios with rather wide CW signals, including all the current products that ARRL has measured.

Hi Jim,

Also, in the "you get what you pay for" category, here are the K3S features (some optional*) that differ significantly from, or are not available on, the IC-7300:

Receive

- *Sub receiver (identical in performance to main), diversity and independent-band operation
- Dedicated AF and RF gain controls for both receivers
- APF (CW audio peaking filter)
- 8-band RX EQ
- Full stereo audio with audio effects (AFX) and L/R balance control
- User-settable AF limiter for use when AGC is off
- 7 AGC customization controls

Transmit

- PIN-diode T/R switching (audible relay on '7300)
- Extremely fast T/R turnaround (as low as 5 ms in QRQ mode; also applies to KPA500)
- Dedicated controls for CW code speed/mic gain, compression/power level
- 8-band TX EQ

General

- *Wide-range ATU (> 10:1 at 100 W; > 20:1 at low power) and two antenna jacks
- *Internal all-mode 2-meter transverter option
- Direct transverter band displays (9); integrated with Elecraft XV-series
- Built-in PSK and RTTY decode (to display) and encode (via keyer paddle);
7300 has only RTTY, I believe
- Dedicated VFO B and RIT/XIT offset controls (VFO B is 400-count optical encoder
with weighted knob)
- 100 regular memories, plus 4 quick memories per band
- 10 user-programmable function switches (for menu hot-keys, macros, TX messages)
- Direct rotary control functions: K3 11; 7300 6
- Direct switch functions: K3, 74 (addional 22 on P3*); 7300, 27
(IC-7300 also has est. 10 full-time touch controls in main display context)
- Keypad for direct frequency entry
- Transflective LCD, easily readable in bright sunlight
- Low current drain for portable/DXpedition use (1 amp typical)
- Works with supply voltage of as low as 10 V
- Carrying handle included
- *High-quality/versatile external control panel option (K-Pod)

Connectivity

- RX antenna in/out and transverter in/out jacks
- Stereo speaker outputs, front and rear headphones, front and rear mics
- Analog line in/out in addition to USB (digital + audio)
- Buffered I.F. output
- Accessory output for compatibility with existing station equipment,
including band-data outputs and user-defined logic in/out
- 12-volt switched output for powering accessories

Spectrum Display*

- dedicated panadapter screen (P3) with significantly larger area
- flexible partitioning of spectrum vs waterfall
- *optional high-resolution, external SVGA display

Any corrections or things I've missed?

Wayne
N6KR

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Wunder,

The only reason I can understand is that they can get away by stating
that they have an internal ATU. Sadly many hams (particularly newer
hams) gloss over the significance of the need for a wide range ATU.
They don't discover that they need an external tuner for their
"multiband" antenna until after they buy the transceiver and discover
that it is inadequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/25/2016 7:25 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:
>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 4:08 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> - *Wide-range ATU (> 10:1 at 100 W; > 20:1 at low power) and two antenna jacks
> I am really mystified about why transceivers include a 3:1 range ATU. It adds $150-200 to the end cost to get an external ATU. It might add $50-75 to make the internal ATU wide-range. It is especially odd for an entry-level rig, where people are likely to be using a low-slung dipole. OK, it is very strange for the IC-7851, too.
>
>

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HarryW

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,

Yes, you missed one thing, the price. I added all the items up that would
have to be added to a factory build K3s so that it could do everything you
claimed and everything the IC-7300 can do. Without shipping costs the K3s
radio prices out at $5469.65, more than three and a half times the cost of
an IC-7300. And everyone is offering free shipping on the IC-7300. And that
price does not include any additional filters in the K3s.

Just trying to be fair.

73,

Harry
K1RSA

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 7:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

> Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon,4/25/2016 1:34 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:
>> Wow, looks like Icom finally made a radio with performance close to
>> the humble K3S and K3 + new synth.... but also looks like you really
>> got to pay 'em for finally doing it, at nearly 13 grand for the 7851!
>
> Don't be so quick to declare either of these products winners -- Rob's RX
measurements are only a small part of what defines the quality of a radio.
ICOM (and Yaesu) have a long history of producing radios with rather wide CW
signals, including all the current products that ARRL has measured.

Hi Jim,

Also, in the "you get what you pay for" category, here are the K3S features
(some optional*) that differ significantly from, or are not available on,
the IC-7300:

Receive

- *Sub receiver (identical in performance to main), diversity and
independent-band operation
- Dedicated AF and RF gain controls for both receivers
- APF (CW audio peaking filter)
- 8-band RX EQ
- Full stereo audio with audio effects (AFX) and L/R balance control
- User-settable AF limiter for use when AGC is off
- 7 AGC customization controls

Transmit

- PIN-diode T/R switching (audible relay on '7300)
- Extremely fast T/R turnaround (as low as 5 ms in QRQ mode; also applies
to KPA500)
- Dedicated controls for CW code speed/mic gain, compression/power level
- 8-band TX EQ

General

- *Wide-range ATU (> 10:1 at 100 W; > 20:1 at low power) and two antenna
jacks
- *Internal all-mode 2-meter transverter option
- Direct transverter band displays (9); integrated with Elecraft
XV-series
- Built-in PSK and RTTY decode (to display) and encode (via keyer
paddle);
7300 has only RTTY, I believe
- Dedicated VFO B and RIT/XIT offset controls (VFO B is 400-count optical
encoder
with weighted knob)
- 100 regular memories, plus 4 quick memories per band
- 10 user-programmable function switches (for menu hot-keys, macros, TX
messages)
- Direct rotary control functions: K3 11; 7300 6
- Direct switch functions: K3, 74 (addional 22 on P3*); 7300, 27
(IC-7300 also has est. 10 full-time touch controls in main display
context)
- Keypad for direct frequency entry
- Transflective LCD, easily readable in bright sunlight
- Low current drain for portable/DXpedition use (1 amp typical)
- Works with supply voltage of as low as 10 V
- Carrying handle included
- *High-quality/versatile external control panel option (K-Pod)

Connectivity

- RX antenna in/out and transverter in/out jacks
- Stereo speaker outputs, front and rear headphones, front and rear mics
- Analog line in/out in addition to USB (digital + audio)
- Buffered I.F. output
- Accessory output for compatibility with existing station equipment,
including band-data outputs and user-defined logic in/out
- 12-volt switched output for powering accessories

Spectrum Display*

- dedicated panadapter screen (P3) with significantly larger area
- flexible partitioning of spectrum vs waterfall
- *optional high-resolution, external SVGA display

Any corrections or things I've missed?

Wayne
N6KR

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Raymond Sills

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by NC3Z Gary

HI Gary:

One aspect of the KX3 is that you can get a bare-bones version… at $900.. and you would have a very functional portable QRP rig. And, as finances permit, you can add the options. That way you don’t have to pony up the entire $3K at one time.

And, even with the bare bones kit, you’d still have the latest firmware at the time of production, and a quite capable multi-mode, multi-band transceiver.

73 de Ray
K2ULR
KX3#211

> On Apr 25, 2016, at 5:21 PM, NC3Z Gary <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> True a fully kitted KX3 station will be about $3000, but the KX3 is
> really a different animal. There is a lot of flexibility with a KX3
> station. For emergency power operation the KX3 draws a lot less power on
> receive.
>
> One key feature is Elecraft themselves, somewhat regular firmware (and
> hardware) updates that improve performance and add features, and all
> this on a product that may be several years old. Other radio
> manufacturers are notorious for not providing updates after a relatively
> short period of time.
>
>
>
> Gary Mitchelson
> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by wb4jfi

> Firstly, the K3/K3S (without the second receiver) cannot be on more
> than ONE amateur band at a time. So, why create an artificial "test"
> that the typical K3 can't even do?

Because that is *exactly* what Flex (and others) promotes - multiple
"slice receivers" anywhere from 1 to 54 MHz.

> Secondly, I wonder how good the K3/K3S would be if you also pulled
> their front-end filtering?

It's not an issue because the filtering is built in - unlike the Flex
6300 that has *no* preselector/bandpass filters.

> 14-bit ADCs aren't showing this problem here, even without
> the HPF.

I have an AM site (two transmitters about 5 miles away) that puts
more than 2 mW into the reverse port of my microHAM SMORF vector
Wattmeter when I use my 160/80/40/30 trapped inverted V during the
daytime. Even after the K3 T/R switch and KBPF3, I see at least
two signals higher greater than -20 dBm on the P3 and more than a
dozen at -30 dBm or more.

Another individual in rural Colorado reports 15 signals > -30 dBm
on his 160/80 meter Marconi T that makes an unfiltered 14 bit ADC
direct sampling transceiver unusable on 160 and 80 meters. In his
case it required 22 dB of attenuation plus an ICE 402 1.8 MHz HPF
to "clean up" the broadcast intermod. Now maybe an MDS of -100 dBm
works on 160 but it certainly isn't going to work on the high bands.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/25/2016 6:17 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> While I don't disagree with the possibility of your first paragraph Joe,
> your third one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
>
> Firstly, the K3/K3S (without the second receiver) cannot be on more than
> ONE amateur band at a time. So, why create an artificial "test" that
> the typical K3 can't even do? I believe that most K3/K3S out there
> don't have the second receiver. Plus, the K3/K3S cannot listen to three
> (or more) bands at once, which the 6500 and 6700 can.
>
> Secondly, I wonder how good the K3/K3S would be if you also pulled their
> front-end filtering?
>
> I'm still very much an Elecraft fan with both a K3 and a KX3, so I'm not
> disparaging the Elecraft equipment at all. I LOVE THEM! I just want
> apples vs apples, please.
>
> BTW, I have an AM station within a couple of miles - directly
> line-of-sight down the river, and I don't see this alleged problem at
> all. But, I'm only using dipoles, a Steppir vertical, or a 50-ohm
> resistor for antennas. Hi Hi. I do see this problem with several 8- or
> 12-bit SDR designs without high-pass filtering, but with a filter, it
> goes away. 14-bit ADCs aren't showing this problem here, even without
> the HPF.
> 73, Terry, N4TLF
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:30 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
>
> On 4/25/2016 4:44 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
>> It's interesting that the 7300's ranking in the table is because of its
>> 94 dB Dynamic Range at 2 KHz spacing. But the footnotes indicate that
>> this dynamic range is with AP+ turned ON. With AP+ ON, minimum
>> detectable signal is degraded by 11 dB.
>
> That's true of *every* direct sampling SDR in the list. That's the
> "dirty little secret" of direct sampling SDRs ... in order to maintain
> that "pristine" IMD DR the "total signal level" or instantaneous peak
> voltage at the ADC must stay below the clipping/overflow level.
>
> Look at the ARRL review of the Flex 6700 and 6300 ... compare their
> MDS with the preamps on and preamps off, then look at the IMD DR
> with the preamps on and off (where the data is available). Even for
> the Flex, MDS is degraded by 10 to 15 dB in order to maintain the full
> dynamic range (not much different than the 7300).
>
> Direct sampling disciples will claim the MDS reduction is not a problem
> but try running one of their radios within a couple miles of an AM
> station with "slice receivers" on more than one amateur band (so the
> preselector/bandpass filters are bypassed).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>>
>> With AP+ OFF, as generally recommended in the footnotes, 2 KHz dynamic
>> range is only 81 dB, which would place the 7300 considerably lower in
>> the table, but still pretty good.
>>
>> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
>> Yuma, AZ
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV
>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:55 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>>
>>
>> Very interesting ... pretty good performance from the IC-7300 for an
>> "entry level radio." On the other hand, the IC-9100 should be better
>> than "mid pack" given it's recent design and price - it's even *worse*
>> (both IMD and LO Noise) that that paragon of "high performance," the
>> IC-706mkIIg!
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 4/25/2016 10:55 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Rob has added the IC-7851, IC-7300, and IC-9100 to his table:
>>>
>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
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> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

EricJ

Re: Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

In reply to this post by HarryW

The fact that you are having this conversation directly with one of the
owners/designers of Elecraft and not one of the owners of ICOM is always
going to make comparisons inherently unfair.

Eric

KE6US

On 4/25/2016 4:58 PM, Harry White wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> Yes, you missed one thing, the price. I added all the items up that would
> have to be added to a factory build K3s so that it could do everything you
> claimed and everything the IC-7300 can do. Without shipping costs the K3s
> radio prices out at $5469.65, more than three and a half times the cost of
> an IC-7300. And everyone is offering free shipping on the IC-7300. And that
> price does not include any additional filters in the K3s.
>
> Just trying to be fair.
>
> 73,
>
> Harry
> K1RSA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Burdick
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 7:09 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
>> Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon,4/25/2016 1:34 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:
>>> Wow, looks like Icom finally made a radio with performance close to
>>> the humble K3S and K3 + new synth.... but also looks like you really
>>> got to pay 'em for finally doing it, at nearly 13 grand for the 7851!
>> Don't be so quick to declare either of these products winners -- Rob's RX
> measurements are only a small part of what defines the quality of a radio.
> ICOM (and Yaesu) have a long history of producing radios with rather wide CW
> signals, including all the current products that ARRL has measured.
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Also, in the "you get what you pay for" category, here are the K3S features
> (some optional*) that differ significantly from, or are not available on,
> the IC-7300:
>
> Receive
>
> - *Sub receiver (identical in performance to main), diversity and
> independent-band operation
> - Dedicated AF and RF gain controls for both receivers
> - APF (CW audio peaking filter)
> - 8-band RX EQ
> - Full stereo audio with audio effects (AFX) and L/R balance control
> - User-settable AF limiter for use when AGC is off
> - 7 AGC customization controls
>
> Transmit
>
> - PIN-diode T/R switching (audible relay on '7300)
> - Extremely fast T/R turnaround (as low as 5 ms in QRQ mode; also applies
> to KPA500)
> - Dedicated controls for CW code speed/mic gain, compression/power level
> - 8-band TX EQ
>
> General
>
> - *Wide-range ATU (> 10:1 at 100 W; > 20:1 at low power) and two antenna
> jacks
> - *Internal all-mode 2-meter transverter option
> - Direct transverter band displays (9); integrated with Elecraft
> XV-series
> - Built-in PSK and RTTY decode (to display) and encode (via keyer
> paddle);
> 7300 has only RTTY, I believe
> - Dedicated VFO B and RIT/XIT offset controls (VFO B is 400-count optical
> encoder
> with weighted knob)
> - 100 regular memories, plus 4 quick memories per band
> - 10 user-programmable function switches (for menu hot-keys, macros, TX
> messages)
> - Direct rotary control functions: K3 11; 7300 6
> - Direct switch functions: K3, 74 (addional 22 on P3*); 7300, 27
> (IC-7300 also has est. 10 full-time touch controls in main display
> context)
> - Keypad for direct frequency entry
> - Transflective LCD, easily readable in bright sunlight
> - Low current drain for portable/DXpedition use (1 amp typical)
> - Works with supply voltage of as low as 10 V
> - Carrying handle included
> - *High-quality/versatile external control panel option (K-Pod)
>
> Connectivity
>
> - RX antenna in/out and transverter in/out jacks
> - Stereo speaker outputs, front and rear headphones, front and rear mics
> - Analog line in/out in addition to USB (digital + audio)
> - Buffered I.F. output
> - Accessory output for compatibility with existing station equipment,
> including band-data outputs and user-defined logic in/out
> - 12-volt switched output for powering accessories
>
> Spectrum Display*
>
> - dedicated panadapter screen (P3) with significantly larger area
> - flexible partitioning of spectrum vs waterfall
> - *optional high-resolution, external SVGA display
>
> Any corrections or things I've missed?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
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