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Smoke Detectors

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Geoffrey Feldman

Smoke Detectors

Radio waves are non-Ionizing. I hope we all know that and know one another
know that. However the near field is an electrical field. The smoke
detector compares the ionization between two chambers, both with the same
radioactive source. One is exposed to the environment (smoke) and the other
is not while both have the same radioactive source. An imbalance in the two
chambers indicates smoke impeding ionizing radiation. It is triggered by a
very small amount of smoke, barely visible to the eye. The means of
detection is electronic and can be affected by a strong near field. Most
of the smoke detectors I know of here in the US are the ion type.

It may also be that other electronics in the detector are affected by the
near field. That would be another theory but I think that affecting the
detector itself is more likely.

-73-
W1GCF
Geoff

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Re: Smoke detectors

Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.

That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
installation of an otherwise good) device.

To do it right, costs money, so you can guess the rest.

Not just smoke detectors either.

Dave G8KBV

On 28/10/2020 21:10, [hidden email] wrote:
> Radio waves are non-ionising radiation, so there is no fundamental
> reason why radio frequencies should trigger ionisation detectors.

--
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Re: Smoke detectors

Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>
> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>
> To do it right, costs money, so you can guess the rest.
>
>
> Not just smoke detectors either.
>
> Dave G8KBV
>
>
>
>> On 28/10/2020 21:10, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Radio waves are non-ionising radiation, so there is no fundamental
>> reason why radio frequencies should trigger ionisation detectors.
>
> --
> Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Smoke detectors

Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed
electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of
the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no
exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI
IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a
switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost
certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will
radiate it.

Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no
external wiring for minimum RFI.

In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.

73, Jim K9YC

On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:

> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>>
>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
>> installation of an otherwise good) device.

Jim AB3CV

Re: Smoke detectors

Strongly suggest contacting county fire marshal before selecting wireless
only detectors.

You don’t want to violate code and have any insurance claim denied if these
is an event.

Jim ab3cv

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 5:38 PM Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed
> electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of
> the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no
> exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI
> IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a
> switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost
> certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will
> radiate it.
>
> Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no
> external wiring for minimum RFI.
>
> In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
> > Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is
> cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless
> connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned
> against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
> >> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
> >>
> >> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
> >> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
> >> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Lou Mecseri

Re: Smoke detectors

I would also check with my insurance agent before making such a switch.

73, Lou KE1F

On 10/29/2020 5:45 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

> Strongly suggest contacting county fire marshal before selecting wireless
> only detectors.
>
> You don’t want to violate code and have any insurance claim denied if these
> is an event.
>
> Jim ab3cv
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 5:38 PM Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed
>> electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of
>> the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no
>> exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI
>> IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a
>> switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost
>> certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will
>> radiate it.
>>
>> Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no
>> external wiring for minimum RFI.
>>
>> In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is
>> cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless
>> connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned
>> against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
>>>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>>>>
>>>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
>>>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
>>>> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

We switched to wireless alarm connected, internal battery detectors due to the occasional RFI interference caused by running a little power on 80 meters. Our alarm company actually had some experience with RFI issues and made the recommendation. I installed them and have a calendar reminder to swap the batteries every fall when the time changes.

Local fire code does not require detectors. Insurance folks give us a break on rates for having them - wired or otherwise here in Ga.

Hank
K4HYJ

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will radiate it.
>
> Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no external wiring for minimum RFI.
>
> In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
>> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
>>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>>>
>>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
>>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
>>> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim AB3CV

Re: Smoke detectors

Every AHJ is different. Find out what yours says.

Jim ab3cv

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 10:16 PM Hank via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> We switched to wireless alarm connected, internal battery detectors due to
> the occasional RFI interference caused by running a little power on 80
> meters. Our alarm company actually had some experience with RFI issues and
> made the recommendation. I installed them and have a calendar reminder to
> swap the batteries every fall when the time changes.
>
> Local fire code does not require detectors. Insurance folks give us a
> break on rates for having them - wired or otherwise here in Ga.
>
> Hank
> K4HYJ
>
> > On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed
> electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of the
> frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no exterior
> wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI IF they
> operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a switching
> power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost certainly
> create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will radiate it.
> >
> > Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no
> external wiring for minimum RFI.
> >
> > In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> >> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
> >> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is
> cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless
> connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned
> against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of
> equipment
> >>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
> >>>
> >>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
> >>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
> >>> installation of an otherwise good) device.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

It's important to understand that these safety codes are LOCAL --
usually by state, but also by county and/or city. There are "guideline"
codes, like the National Electric Code, that are adopted by most local
authorities, and those guideline codes are updated every few years.
Often the local code (which is the Law) is years behind.

California law DOES require smoke detectors. I don't know enough about
the law to know the limitations on type. The ones we have are
stand-alone, running on a standard replaceable battery.

73, Jim K9YC

On 10/29/2020 7:14 PM, Hank wrote:

> We switched to wireless alarm connected, internal battery detectors due to the occasional RFI interference caused by running a little power on 80 meters. Our alarm company actually had some experience with RFI issues and made the recommendation. I installed them and have a calendar reminder to swap the batteries every fall when the time changes.
>
> Local fire code does not require detectors. Insurance folks give us a break on rates for having them - wired or otherwise here in Ga.
>
> Hank
> K4HYJ
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will radiate it.
>>
>> Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no external wiring for minimum RFI.
>>
>> In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
>>>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>>>>
>>>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
>>>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
>>>> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Smoke detectors

Exactly. Here in Folsom, Sacramento County, we are required to have wired smoke detectors AND battery powered carbon monoxide detectors. In fact, we had our roof replaced a few years ago and the building inspectors would not pass it unless those carbon monoxide detectors were installed. For backup we also installed battery powered smoke detectors in each room.

73, Jim / W6JHB

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It's important to understand that these safety codes are LOCAL -- usually by state, but also by county and/or city. There are "guideline" codes, like the National Electric Code, that are adopted by most local authorities, and those guideline codes are updated every few years. Often the local code (which is the Law) is years behind.
>
> California law DOES require smoke detectors. I don't know enough about the law to know the limitations on type. The ones we have are stand-alone, running on a standard replaceable battery.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 10/29/2020 7:14 PM, Hank wrote:
>> We switched to wireless alarm connected, internal battery detectors due to the occasional RFI interference caused by running a little power on 80 meters. Our alarm company actually had some experience with RFI issues and made the recommendation. I installed them and have a calendar reminder to swap the batteries every fall when the time changes.
>> Local fire code does not require detectors. Insurance folks give us a break on rates for having them - wired or otherwise here in Ga.
>> Hank
>> K4HYJ
>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Most RFI to/from ham radio and "devices" is caused by poorly designed electronics using interconnected wiring as TX/RX antennas. Because of the frequencies on which they operate, WiFi-connected devices with no exterior wiring are inherently FAR less likely to create or receive RFI IF they operate on internal batteries. If running from the AC line or a switching power supply (wall wart, wall lump, etc.) the PSU will almost certainly create RFI noise and wiring both on the AC and DC side will radiate it.
>>>
>>> Bottom line -- choose stand-alone devices with internal batteries and no external wiring for minimum RFI.
>>>
>>> In your situation, I would try one of them before returning them.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>>
>>>> On 10/29/2020 12:57 PM, Harlan Sherriff via Elecraft wrote:
>>>> Dave, I totally agree. I am sure the “problem” the manufacturer is cautioning about is RF, since my original post was about “wireless connected” detectors. My gripe was nothing in the sales literature warned against it. Not till I bought the units and read the installation guide
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Dave B via Elecraft<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, RF (AKA "Radio Waves") can falsely trigger all sorts of equipment
>>>>> that was not "designed" to work with, or be influenced by them.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is the classic EMC Susceptibility or Immunity problem. Basically,
>>>>> poor design and/or implementation of the affected (or sometimes bad
>>>>> installation of an otherwise good) device.
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

For what it’s worth, the American Red Cross is recommending installation of units that have 10-year lithium ion batteries which are sealed and not replaceable. History has shown that kids tend to remove the batteries for their toys and games.

They also say the test button tests only the battery, not the combustion-products detection circuitry. The circuitry in the older units (with replaceable batteries) proved to be effective only for five years.

Any detector older than five years should be thrown away and replaced with the new 10-year design.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The ones we have are stand-alone, running on a standard replaceable battery.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Smoke detectors

The smoke detectors we have here are wired into the security system - no
replaceable batteries - except for one which is standalone in the
bedroom and was required to be added by the inspector when we built the
house even with the whole house system in place. No RFI problems observed.

We do know the whole house detectors work - the security folks have
called those times when we let the toast burn in the oven! I had to
have one in the shop building moved because it was right over the
workbench and would alarm any time I was doing fine power sanding - even
though I had a dust collector running.

Thanks for the info on the 10 year units. We have replaced the
standalone one 3 times in 17 years, so we are about right on a 5 year
replacement schedule.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/30/2020 5:49 PM, K9ZTV wrote:
> For what it’s worth, the American Red Cross is recommending installation of units that have 10-year lithium ion batteries which are sealed and not replaceable. History has shown that kids tend to remove the batteries for their toys and games.
>
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Phil Kane-2

Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

On 10/30/2020 2:49 PM, K9ZTV wrote:

> For what it’s worth, the American Red Cross is recommending
> installation of units that have 10-year lithium ion batteries which
> are sealed and not replaceable. History has shown that kids tend to
> remove the batteries for their toys and games.

The sealed batteries in the ones that we have are replaceable but the
cells within them are not. Experience with the "10-year" batteries is
that they start getting flaky at about 7-8 years, but the building
management is very cooperative about replacing them when they start
chirping.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

I second the motion to replace ALL the older smoke detectors, not only in YOUR home BUT IN YOUR CHILDREN’S HOMES! My daughters husband is not that bright and I replaced all their smoke detectors and monitor them when we visit. They live in a 112 year old run down mansion (fire trap) with kids spread all over. The new Kidde ones are sealed and no one can mess with them (Thank God!) and good for 10 years.

David J. Wilcox’s iPad

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 5:52 PM, K9ZTV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For what it’s worth, the American Red Cross is recommending installation of units that have 10-year lithium ion batteries which are sealed and not replaceable. History has shown that kids tend to remove the batteries for their toys and games.
>
> They also say the test button tests only the battery, not the combustion-products detection circuitry. The circuitry in the older units (with replaceable batteries) proved to be effective only for five years.
>
> Any detector older than five years should be thrown away and replaced with the new 10-year design.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent K9ZTV
>
>> On Oct 30, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The ones we have are stand-alone, running on a standard replaceable battery.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Lyn WØLEN

Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

We have a 2-step solution to this continuing issue:

1) Install 10 year lithium ion batteries as Kent recommends, and
2) Remove kids. All of them.

Done.

73
Lyn, W0LEN
EE (Experienced Empty-nester)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of K9ZTV
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 4:49 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Smoke detectors

For what it’s worth, the American Red Cross is recommending installation of units that have 10-year lithium ion batteries which are sealed and not replaceable. History has shown that kids tend to remove the batteries for their toys and games.

They also say the test button tests only the battery, not the combustion-products detection circuitry. The circuitry in the older units (with replaceable batteries) proved to be effective only for five years.

Any detector older than five years should be thrown away and replaced with the new 10-year design.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The ones we have are stand-alone, running on a standard replaceable battery.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Smoke detectors

In reply to this post by Geoffrey Feldman

Two comments –

The idea behind the 10 year life batteries in sealed detectors is that the battery and the sensor element both need to be retired at the 10 year point. It is not a good idea to put new batteries in any detector at around the 10 year point as the sensor needs replacement, too.

We had 20 year old Firex smoke detectors. Kidde acquired Firex and now makes replacements with 10 year lifetimes. They are not plug and play for 2 reasons. The Firex pigtail wired into the house does not mate with the Kidde detectors, and the plastic flange that mates to the electrical box is not compatible, either. Kidde sells a plug adapter that IMO is too bulky behind their detector to readily fit into the electrical box. So, plan to install a new mounting flange, remove the prior pigtail and install a new one.

Of course you may find obstacles I did not and this only applies to the brands discussed.

Bob R – N7WY

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