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T/R switching problem

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Jan Ditzian

T/R switching problem

I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is that,
after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very attenuated.
This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the PTT
switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make a brief
additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today, the
problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with things to
get receive back. Here are some questions:

1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
on receive?
2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
Elecraft situation?
4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?

Thank you,

Jan, KX2A

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: T/R switching problem

Jan,

Before deciding it is a K3 problem, take a look at your antenna system
coax. If you bought cables from DX Engineering in the past year, be
aware that they had a crimping problem that could result in the bhavior
that you are experiencing. A transmit 'sets it straight', but the RX
diminishes after that.

Fortunately, DX Enginerring has corrected the problem and has
acknowledged it.

If you do not have the defective DXengineering cable problem, then you
should check your coax couplings for possible causes of problems. UHF
connectors should be more than finger tight. The shield connection
depends on a good tight connection, use pliers lightly and tape each
outdoor connection with electrical tape covered by CoaxSeal.

If you find no problems in you antenna system, contact
K3suppot@elecraft,com for further assistance.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/25/2014 9:40 PM, Jan wrote:

> I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is
> that, after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very
> attenuated. This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick
> tap on the PTT switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I
> must make a brief additional transmission to get the receive to
> return. Today, the problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really
> fuss with things to get receive back. Here are some questions:
>
> 1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
> sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
> on receive?
> 2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
> 3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
> Elecraft situation?
> 4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?
>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Jan Ditzian

As Don suggests, the problem can be anywhere in the antenna system, and
in my experience it is much more likely to be a connector than the K3.

I once had a similar problem that drove me nuts until I discovered a
corroded solder joint INSIDE an encapsulated balun.

A film of oxide on a poor connection can often be temporarily cleared
when you transmit (you are probably transmitting a little RF when you
just tap the PTT) but will fail to pass the tiny current from a received
signal.

There are various relays in the K3, but the t/r switching is performed
by diodes.

If you have a different antenna with a different feedline, then that can
provide a way to tell if it is the rig or the antenna system.

On 3/25/2014 6:40 PM, Jan wrote:

> I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is that,
> after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very attenuated.
> This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the PTT
> switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make a brief
> additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today, the
> problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with things to
> get receive back. Here are some questions:
>
> 1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
> sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
> on receive?
> 2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
> 3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
> Elecraft situation?
> 4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jan, KX2A

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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Mike K2MK

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Jan Ditzian

Hi Jan,

What is your antenna. There has been an ongoing thread on the SteppIR site regarding this identical problem with many types of transceivers, not just the K3. If you have a SteppIR antenna (any model) you should take a look at their Yahoo site.

73,
Mike K2MK

Jan Ditzian wrote

I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is that,
after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very attenuated.
This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the PTT
switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make a brief
additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today, the
problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with things to
get receive back. Here are some questions:

1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
on receive?
2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
Elecraft situation?
4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?

Thank you,

Jan, KX2A

Phil Hystad-3

Re: T/R switching problem

I have a similar (close but not identical to symptoms below) problem with
K3 receive attenuation. I do not have a SteppIR and this same problem occurred
on more than one antenna (80-meter dipole, Traffie Hex Beam).

My symptoms were that when I turned on the radio in the morning, the band
per the display on the P3 was flat, virtually no "visible" signals. No matter
as I was doing my morning reading with my coffee.

Later, I went to the radio and there should have been some good activity
on 20, 17, 15, 12, and 10. I did have signals but no where near as much
as I think there should have been. I thought maybe the KAT500 was out
of tune so I fooled with that, Xmitted tune and so on and no real change.

I checked everything I could think of such as change in PRE setting (I was
on PRE), Attenuation (no, was not), and so on.

Finally, I tried the old computer programming trick, turn it off and turn it
on again.

When the K3 came back up the bands were crowded with signals. So, there
was some significant attenuation going on but turning off (front panel
switch only) the K3 and turning it back on fixed everything.

Ideas, comments?? Oh, this has happened only that one time so far.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Mar 26, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jan,
>
> What is your antenna. There has been an ongoing thread on the SteppIR site
> regarding this identical problem with many types of transceivers, not just
> the K3. If you have a SteppIR antenna (any model) you should take a look at
> their Yahoo site.
>
> 73,
> Mike K2MK
>
>
> Jan Ditzian wrote
>> I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is that,
>> after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very attenuated.
>> This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the PTT
>> switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make a brief
>> additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today, the
>> problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with things to
>> get receive back. Here are some questions:
>>
>> 1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
>> sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
>> on receive?
>> 2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
>> 3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
>> Elecraft situation?
>> 4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Jan, KX2A
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/T-R-switching-problem-tp7585979p7585987.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jan Ditzian

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Jan Ditzian

The T/R problem has occurred with different antennas. However, there
are several interconnecting coax cables in the line, and these do not
change. All are soldered, but they are quite old, and
home-constructed. I suspect that if it is a cable problem, it is in the
shack. I will pursue this line of investigation and report back.

Thanks to those who have helped me to take a step forward on this problem.

73,

Jan, KX2A

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Dick Dievendorff-4

Re: T/R switching problem

Jan:

I've had this problem several times over the years. Intermittent quiet
during Rx, tap the key to send a squirt of RF and the band livens up. For a
while.

When I first encountered this, my first suspicion was a 40 meter only
problem with my ICOM transceiver. My tower climbing buddy just moved
slightly and retightened all the cable clamps on the linear loading wires of
my 40 meter beam and the problem went away. (I've since replaced that
antenna).

One time it was a loose coaxial cable connector.

It's hard to find these. They might require certain temperature or humidity
or wind or ... to re-create.

I have a number of connectors between the radio and the antennas. Sometimes
I can isolate the behavior to one band or another, and that helps me locate
where in my switching arrangement the problem might lie.

The K3 (and KPA500, and KXPA100) use solid state devices for T/R switching,
and tend to have "working fine" or "not working at all" behavior.

73 de Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] T/R switching problem

The T/R problem has occurred with different antennas. However, there are
several interconnecting coax cables in the line, and these do not change.
All are soldered, but they are quite old, and home-constructed. I suspect
that if it is a cable problem, it is in the shack. I will pursue this line
of investigation and report back.

Thanks to those who have helped me to take a step forward on this problem.

73,

Jan, KX2A

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Toby Pennington

Fwd: Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

The only time I have experienced some amount of attenuation on receive
is when I was using some other amplifier besides the KPA 500.

I found I had to totally disconnect all my cabling between the amplifier
and the rig. Since I am using the K line completely, trying to use an
external amp other than the KPA 500 can be done without disconnecting
all the cabling, but on receive you will experience attenuation of the
receive signals. To have full receive using another brand of amp, you
will have to remove the data transfer cabling between the rig and amp.
I hope I have this right, as it has been some time since I
experimented with using an amp with more output than the KPA 500.

Toby K4NH

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] T/R switching problem
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:53:18 -0700
From: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
To: Mike K2MK <[hidden email]>
CC: [hidden email]

I have a similar (close but not identical to symptoms below) problem with
K3 receive attenuation. I do not have a SteppIR and this same problem occurred
on more than one antenna (80-meter dipole, Traffie Hex Beam).

My symptoms were that when I turned on the radio in the morning, the band
per the display on the P3 was flat, virtually no "visible" signals. No matter
as I was doing my morning reading with my coffee.

Later, I went to the radio and there should have been some good activity
on 20, 17, 15, 12, and 10. I did have signals but no where near as much
as I think there should have been. I thought maybe the KAT500 was out
of tune so I fooled with that, Xmitted tune and so on and no real change.

I checked everything I could think of such as change in PRE setting (I was
on PRE), Attenuation (no, was not), and so on.

Finally, I tried the old computer programming trick, turn it off and turn it
on again.

When the K3 came back up the bands were crowded with signals. So, there
was some significant attenuation going on but turning off (front panel
switch only) the K3 and turning it back on fixed everything.

Ideas, comments?? Oh, this has happened only that one time so far.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Mar 26, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stephen Bloom

Re: Fwd: Re: T/R switching problem

Phil:

I would keep a close eye on this. I had a bad issue with attenuation and
rectification using the K3-KPA500 ..only existing when the amp was on and in
operating mode. It turned out to be a bad capacitor in one of the low pass
filters. Sent it back to Elecraft ..and fixed quickly. I'd give them a
call.

73
Steve KL7SB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Toby Pennington
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 9:01 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Fwd: Re: T/R switching problem

The only time I have experienced some amount of attenuation on receive is
when I was using some other amplifier besides the KPA 500.

I found I had to totally disconnect all my cabling between the amplifier
and the rig. Since I am using the K line completely, trying to use an
external amp other than the KPA 500 can be done without disconnecting all
the cabling, but on receive you will experience attenuation of the receive
signals. To have full receive using another brand of amp, you will have to
remove the data transfer cabling between the rig and amp.
I hope I have this right, as it has been some time since I experimented
with using an amp with more output than the KPA 500.

Toby K4NH

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] T/R switching problem
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:53:18 -0700
From: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
To: Mike K2MK <[hidden email]>
CC: [hidden email]

I have a similar (close but not identical to symptoms below) problem with
K3 receive attenuation. I do not have a SteppIR and this same problem
occurred on more than one antenna (80-meter dipole, Traffie Hex Beam).

My symptoms were that when I turned on the radio in the morning, the band
per the display on the P3 was flat, virtually no "visible" signals. No
matter as I was doing my morning reading with my coffee.

Later, I went to the radio and there should have been some good activity on
20, 17, 15, 12, and 10. I did have signals but no where near as much as I
think there should have been. I thought maybe the KAT500 was out of tune so
I fooled with that, Xmitted tune and so on and no real change.

I checked everything I could think of such as change in PRE setting (I was
on PRE), Attenuation (no, was not), and so on.

Finally, I tried the old computer programming trick, turn it off and turn it
on again.

When the K3 came back up the bands were crowded with signals. So, there was
some significant attenuation going on but turning off (front panel switch
only) the K3 and turning it back on fixed everything.

Ideas, comments?? Oh, this has happened only that one time so far.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Mar 26, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jan,
>
> What is your antenna. There has been an ongoing thread on the SteppIR
> site regarding this identical problem with many types of transceivers,
> not just the K3. If you have a SteppIR antenna (any model) you should
> take a look at their Yahoo site.
>
> 73,
> Mike K2MK
>
>
> Jan Ditzian wrote
>> I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is
>> that, after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very

attenuated.

>> This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the
>> PTT switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make
>> a brief additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today,
>> the problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with
>> things to get receive back. Here are some questions:
>>
>> 1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
>> sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
>> on receive?
>> 2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
>> 3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
>> Elecraft situation?
>> 4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Jan, KX2A
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/T-R-switching-problem-tp7585979p7
> 585987.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Toby Pennington

Well, I have never had my K3 hooked up to any amplifier other than the KPA500. Before I got the KPA500 I did have a PW-1 but I sold that. Which reminds me, I should buy the new brick amp for the KX3.

73, phil

On Mar 26, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Toby Pennington <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The only time I have experienced some amount of attenuation on receive is when I was using some other amplifier besides the KPA 500.
>
> I found I had to totally disconnect all my cabling between the amplifier and the rig. Since I am using the K line completely, trying to use an external amp other than the KPA 500 can be done without disconnecting all the cabling, but on receive you will experience attenuation of the receive signals. To have full receive using another brand of amp, you will have to remove the data transfer cabling between the rig and amp. I hope I have this right, as it has been some time since I experimented with using an amp with more output than the KPA 500.
>
> Toby K4NH
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] T/R switching problem
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:53:18 -0700
> From: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
> To: Mike K2MK <[hidden email]>
> CC: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> I have a similar (close but not identical to symptoms below) problem with
> K3 receive attenuation. I do not have a SteppIR and this same problem occurred
> on more than one antenna (80-meter dipole, Traffie Hex Beam).
>
> My symptoms were that when I turned on the radio in the morning, the band
> per the display on the P3 was flat, virtually no "visible" signals. No matter
> as I was doing my morning reading with my coffee.
>
> Later, I went to the radio and there should have been some good activity
> on 20, 17, 15, 12, and 10. I did have signals but no where near as much
> as I think there should have been. I thought maybe the KAT500 was out
> of tune so I fooled with that, Xmitted tune and so on and no real change.
>
> I checked everything I could think of such as change in PRE setting (I was
> on PRE), Attenuation (no, was not), and so on.
>
> Finally, I tried the old computer programming trick, turn it off and turn it
> on again.
>
> When the K3 came back up the bands were crowded with signals. So, there
> was some significant attenuation going on but turning off (front panel
> switch only) the K3 and turning it back on fixed everything.
>
> Ideas, comments?? Oh, this has happened only that one time so far.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On Mar 26, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jan,
>>
>> What is your antenna. There has been an ongoing thread on the SteppIR site
>> regarding this identical problem with many types of transceivers, not just
>> the K3. If you have a SteppIR antenna (any model) you should take a look at
>> their Yahoo site.
>>
>> 73,
>> Mike K2MK
>>
>>
>> Jan Ditzian wrote
>>> I am having a problem with T/R switching in my K3. The symptom is that,
>>> after I transmit, the receive signals are sometimes very attenuated.
>>> This problem has gotten worse. At first, simply a quick tap on the PTT
>>> switch fixed everything, but now, at least on phone, I must make a brief
>>> additional transmission to get the receive to return. Today, the
>>> problem got worse, and sometimes I have to really fuss with things to
>>> get receive back. Here are some questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Is there a T/R relay in the K3, and does this sound like it is
>>> sticking, at least to the extent that it does not make good contact
>>> on receive?
>>> 2. Has anyone had the similar problem, and what was the solution?
>>> 3. If it is a relay, can it be replaced easily, or is this a return to
>>> Elecraft situation?
>>> 4. If it is simply a relay replacement, where is the relay located?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Jan, KX2A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/T-R-switching-problem-tp7585979p7585987.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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K5SM

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Jan Ditzian

I have encountered this phenomenon on a number of occasions over the
past 50 years. In my case, every time, the problem was an oxidized
connection or relay contact. Transmitting a single dit would clear the
problem (temporarily), but the condition would always reappear after a
time, sometimes after only a few minutes, if no other action was taken.
In most cases, lightly burnishing the connection or relay contact (by
far the most common culprit...in my experience) would resolve the issue.

73, Bob

--
Robert Redmon K5SM
AMA 58073

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k6dgw

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I have this problem occasionally on my sloping Vee for 40, 80, and 160,
and I know it is in the antenna. The V is fed at the top of the tower
with 450 ohm ladder line which connects to the antenna wires with copper
split nuts. Corrosion has slowly occurred, and over time, the band gets
very quiet. A single dit will fix it, and of course, if I continue to
transmit such as in a contest, all is well. Getting it down to fix it
is a serious PITA because of all the trees under it, and I don't know
how much longer we're going to be here, so I live with it. YMMV.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 3/25/2014 8:09 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Jan,
>
> Before deciding it is a K3 problem, take a look at your antenna system
> coax. If you bought cables from DX Engineering in the past year, be
> aware that they had a crimping problem that could result in the bhavior
> that you are experiencing. A transmit 'sets it straight', but the RX
> diminishes after that.

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Jan Ditzian

Re: T/R switching problem

In reply to this post by Jan Ditzian

This is a follow-up to the discussion about a T/R switching problem I
had. I thank everyone who shared their suggestions. Those who said to
look elsewhere besides the K3 were probably correct. I swapped some of
my interconnecting coax jumpers, and the problem appears to have gone
away. I am still checking, but when I had it, it appeared sooner than
it has after the latest change of jumpers. I think I have it narrowed to
two of them.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

73,

Jan, KX2A

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