Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost a bit but they sure do sound good!
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Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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IMHO.....AFX does indeed produce a startling sound but I woudn't give credit
to that 307b speaker. I had a 307b and it's one of the cheapest, poor quality and tinny sounding speakers I've ever seen or heard. There's nothing to it. Just a 4" speaker in a metal box that matches the style of TenTec's rigs. Consider that it will cost you $200 for a pair of these! Just look at what you can buy for less! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Gould" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:04 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! >I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in >stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost a >bit but they sure do sound good! > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Ron Gould
Ron,
If you think those TenTec speakers sound good, you will be in for an even better 'listening experience' if you put a pair of low to medium grade stereo speakers on the K3. I found a pair of RS Optimus XTS-40 speakers in a used 'everything' store for $5 each, but since everything in the store was 50% off, I got a bargain. Yes, they have only 4 inch drivers, but the voice coil is relatively large with a long throw and the edge of the speakers is that flexible stuff. I would not use them as main speakers and call it a good stereo system, but they sound great on the K3 and are black simulated wood which blends with the K3 cabinet quite well. What am I saying (you might ask)? - Look around the secondhand stores or pawn shops in your area for some small consumer grade "Hi-Fi" bookshelf speakers at a good price and try them on the K3 - you will like them. Unless of course, you enjoy the sound of a speaker rattling a metal box - like most of the "rig matching" loudspeakers do. One *could* buy new, but we hams are 'prudent spenders' and always looking for a bargain when it comes to ham radio. 73, Don W3FPR Ron Gould wrote: > I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost a bit but they sure do sound good! > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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Another source of good communications-quality speakers is surplus
land-mobile gear. They tend to have robust construction - no rattles - high power handling and tailored audio. The GE Delta speaker was particularly good, in my opinion, and it's black ;) The old Mastr II speakers sounded good too. There are probably good speakers from Moto; I have limited experience with them. Look under the tables at hamfests and you'll usually find a box of them, kinda' dirty, but cheap. 73, geo - n4ua Don Wilhelm wrote: > Ron, > > If you think those TenTec speakers sound good, you will be in for an > even better 'listening experience' if you put a pair of low to medium > grade stereo speakers on the K3. I found a pair of RS Optimus XTS-40 > speakers in a used 'everything' store for $5 each, but since everything > in the store was 50% off, I got a bargain. Yes, they have only 4 inch > drivers, but the voice coil is relatively large with a long throw and > the edge of the speakers is that flexible stuff. I would not use them > as main speakers and call it a good stereo system, but they sound great > on the K3 and are black simulated wood which blends with the K3 cabinet > quite well. > > What am I saying (you might ask)? - Look around the secondhand stores or > pawn shops in your area for some small consumer grade "Hi-Fi" bookshelf > speakers at a good price and try them on the K3 - you will like them. > Unless of course, you enjoy the sound of a speaker rattling a metal box > - like most of the "rig matching" loudspeakers do. One *could* buy new, > but we hams are 'prudent spenders' and always looking for a bargain when > it comes to ham radio. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > Ron Gould wrote: >> I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost a bit but they sure do sound good! >> >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Don,
I was just getting ready to chime in that a pair of the Optimus XTS-40's sound pretty good on my K3, hi. Yes, they are small, but do sound pretty sweet and match quite well. 73, Don, WB5HAK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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Not meaning to pour gas on this, but... Is it just me that doesn't understand the idea of hi-fi in amateur radio, for HF anyway?
I always thought the goal for voice modes was a good "communications" response, an intentional "low-fi". i.e. good response in the frequency range of the human voice (something like 300 to 1 or 2 khz), but with peaks and dips, as well as rolloffs on the ends as needed to increase intelligibility without unnecessarily increasing bandwidth. This is a trend I've only picked up on recently and I'm a bit mystified by it. I don't use voice modes which might be why I don't understand, but help an aging brass pounder (and soon-to-be-PSK nut) out on this, hi hi... 73, LS W5QD |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:58:48 -0800 (PST), lstavenhagen wrote:
>I always thought the goal for voice modes was a good "communications" >response, an intentional "low-fi". i.e. good response in the frequency >range of the human voice (something like 300 to 1 or 2 khz), but with peaks >and dips, as well as rolloffs on the ends as needed to increase >intelligibility without unnecessarily increasing bandwidth. You're close. Optimum communications response should be razor flat between about 400 Hz and 3 kHz, rolling off sharply below 400 Hz. Peaks and dips add phase distortion, which is NOT a good thing. The K2 sounds good when you're receiving through its TX crystal filter, but it has really awful amplitude and phase response when its tunable RX crystal filters are aligned for fairly narrow SSB bandwidth. This makes using it for SSB contesting akin to torture. The K3 does not have that problem. Loudspeakers and headphones are important components of the signal chain. The response of cheap loudspeakers and headphones can be pretty atrocious, so it's worth finding good ones. Also, don't forget that the K3 can be set up for general coverage RX and wide IF so you can listen to AM broadcasters. That's a good reason for using better loudspeakers or headphones. Yes, there are some hams running wideband SSB and AM on the HF bands. That's fine if the bands are not busy, but when they do that under crowded band conditions, I view them as quite selfish. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by George Dubovsky
I too have been very successful using the Mastr II or Motorola MICOR
speakers on any HF rig. These speakers can be found at hamfest in very good condition for $5.00 or so. They are physically tough and are excellent "communications" speakers. Typically they will make any HF radio sound better. 73 Bob, K4TAX ----- Original Message ----- From: "George" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Cc: <[hidden email]>; "Ron Gould" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > Another source of good communications-quality speakers is surplus > land-mobile gear. They tend to have robust construction - no rattles - > high power handling and tailored audio. The GE Delta speaker was > particularly good, in my opinion, and it's black ;) The old Mastr II > speakers sounded good too. There are probably good speakers from Moto; I > have limited experience with them. Look under the tables at hamfests and > you'll usually find a box of them, kinda' dirty, but cheap. > > 73, > > geo - n4ua > > Don Wilhelm wrote: >> Ron, >> >> If you think those TenTec speakers sound good, you will be in for an >> even better 'listening experience' if you put a pair of low to medium >> grade stereo speakers on the K3. I found a pair of RS Optimus XTS-40 >> speakers in a used 'everything' store for $5 each, but since everything >> in the store was 50% off, I got a bargain. Yes, they have only 4 inch >> drivers, but the voice coil is relatively large with a long throw and >> the edge of the speakers is that flexible stuff. I would not use them >> as main speakers and call it a good stereo system, but they sound great >> on the K3 and are black simulated wood which blends with the K3 cabinet >> quite well. >> >> What am I saying (you might ask)? - Look around the secondhand stores or >> pawn shops in your area for some small consumer grade "Hi-Fi" bookshelf >> speakers at a good price and try them on the K3 - you will like them. >> Unless of course, you enjoy the sound of a speaker rattling a metal box >> - like most of the "rig matching" loudspeakers do. One *could* buy new, >> but we hams are 'prudent spenders' and always looking for a bargain when >> it comes to ham radio. >> >> 73, >> Don W3FPR >> >> Ron Gould wrote: >>> I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in >>> stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost >>> a bit but they sure do sound good! >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by lstavenhagen
LS,
You are correct that speakers *can* provide bandpass limiting. And that is quite effective with low grade communication devices that have a very wide audio response, or audio with a lot of distortion products. Modern communications receivers are not that way - Some like the K3 have RX EQ and with modern audio amplifier chips, the audio distortion is low - under those conditions, wide range speakers will provide cleaner audio to the ears than a "communications speaker" which limits the bandpass (and sometimes introduces distortion in the process). Many of us have hearing problems - initiated by military service, loud concerts, occupational hazards, etc. In my own case, I have observed that my ears are more sensitive (and less tolerant) to distortion than those with normal hearing range. The cleaner the audio, the better it sounds even though my ears themselves act like low pass filters - I have no better explanation than that, so my advice to those with hearing problems (and to those who don't know about their hearing problems yet) is "Listen to speakers with a clean wide frequency response before making a decision". Modern electronics *can* limit the bandpass without introducing distortion, but if the bandpass is restricted by a mechanical device (speaker or headphones), distortion is often a result of that mechanical bandpass limiting. Yes, I have discussed this phenomenon with audio specialists - audiologists, audio engineers, and those selling high end audio equipment, and have not found any who differ with my perceptions, in fact most can verify that the tolerance to endure distortion decreases when there is hearing loss. As an example, how many people with normal hearing do you know who are quite tolerant of a mis-tuned AM broadcast station? It drives me out of the room! In my teen years when my hearing was very good, I enjoyed listening to my 6 transistor AM radio with its tiny tinny speaker - but now that would drive me insane. 73, Don W3FPR lstavenhagen wrote: > Not meaning to pour gas on this, but... Is it just me that doesn't understand > the idea of hi-fi in amateur radio, for HF anyway? > I always thought the goal for voice modes was a good "communications" > response, an intentional "low-fi". i.e. good response in the frequency > range of the human voice (something like 300 to 1 or 2 khz), but with peaks > and dips, as well as rolloffs on the ends as needed to increase > intelligibility without unnecessarily increasing bandwidth. > > This is a trend I've only picked up on recently and I'm a bit mystified by > it. I don't use voice modes which might be why I don't understand, but help > an aging brass pounder (and soon-to-be-PSK nut) out on this, hi hi... > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by George Dubovsky
FWIW, in December, Wayne Burdick made this recommendation about speakers
for the K3 ... On 12/17/2009 3:46 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > Richard, > > The K3's external speaker output requires a stereo plug. Also set > CONFIG:SPKRS to 2. > > Hum pickup is a very common problem with some powered speakers, > regardless of what they're used with. You may be able to fix it with > different cabling, moving the DC adapter, etc. > > I recommend using non-powered speakers with the K3. It has plenty of > drive, and this eliminates a few variables caused by powered speakers. > > The speakers I use are from Best Buy: "Insignia, 4-inch, 3-way > surround speakers"; same as the KLH Model 970A or other similar > models. They're very inexpensive and sound great. Size: about 4"W x > 8"H x 4"D. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > On 4/14/2010 7:27 PM, George wrote: > Another source of good communications-quality speakers is surplus > land-mobile gear. They tend to have robust construction - no rattles - > high power handling and tailored audio. The GE Delta speaker was > particularly good, in my opinion, and it's black ;) The old Mastr II > speakers sounded good too. There are probably good speakers from Moto; I > have limited experience with them. Look under the tables at hamfests and > you'll usually find a box of them, kinda' dirty, but cheap. > > 73, > > geo - n4ua > > Don Wilhelm wrote: > >> Ron, >> >> If you think those TenTec speakers sound good, you will be in for an >> even better 'listening experience' if you put a pair of low to medium >> grade stereo speakers on the K3. I found a pair of RS Optimus XTS-40 >> speakers in a used 'everything' store for $5 each, but since everything >> in the store was 50% off, I got a bargain. Yes, they have only 4 inch >> drivers, but the voice coil is relatively large with a long throw and >> the edge of the speakers is that flexible stuff. I would not use them >> as main speakers and call it a good stereo system, but they sound great >> on the K3 and are black simulated wood which blends with the K3 cabinet >> quite well. >> >> What am I saying (you might ask)? - Look around the secondhand stores or >> pawn shops in your area for some small consumer grade "Hi-Fi" bookshelf >> speakers at a good price and try them on the K3 - you will like them. >> Unless of course, you enjoy the sound of a speaker rattling a metal box >> - like most of the "rig matching" loudspeakers do. One *could* buy new, >> but we hams are 'prudent spenders' and always looking for a bargain when >> it comes to ham radio. >> >> 73, >> Don W3FPR >> >> Ron Gould wrote: >> >>> I have connected two Ten Tec 307B speakers to my K3 and am running it in stereo and with AFX on. Wow a Ten Tec never sounded so good. They cost a bit but they sure do sound good! >>> >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Well I'm not talking about speakers specifically. Just the the motivation for wideband audio response in general, i.e. ESSB and so on.
As I've said before, the primary reason I don't use the voice modes is that it's like trying to have a relaxing talk to a friend at a basketball game. It's fine when the band isn't crowded, but as soon as someone starts butting in 1 kc above or below you, the last thing, seems to me, that you want is the other stations using wideband, hi-fi audio. I thought that was what a traditional narrow communications freq. response was for. I understand the motivation for low distortion (I have some hearing damage from years as a musician), tho. And I did order a mic with my K3 for testing purposes (i.e. to make sure the mic inputs worked, I think the K3 will be my first rig with an actual working audio section hi hi) and the audio in the monitor sure enough sounds very clean. I guess that's what I love about digital and CW. You're not stuck with nearly as much QRM especially with rigs like the K2 and K3 where you can just squeeze the other signals out as much as you want. Oh well, I was just curious, mostly because of my unfamiliarity with the voice modes, I suppose. 73, LS W5QD |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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LS,
You should listen to what we hear in VK Land. On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we have a few of those here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW plus amplifierrs and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose and do a quick QSY..(:-)) I no longer answer just "any" CQ these days, but rather I pick those with good sounding stations and work them instead of putting up with the not so good signals that are quite common on the bands these days. JM2cW 73's Gary On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:04 PM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]>wrote: > > Well I'm not talking about speakers specifically. Just the the motivation > for > wideband audio response in general, i.e. ESSB and so on. > As I've said before, the primary reason I don't use the voice modes is that > it's like trying to have a relaxing talk to a friend at a basketball game. > It's fine when the band isn't crowded, but as soon as someone starts > butting > in 1 kc above or below you, the last thing, seems to me, that you want is > the other stations using wideband, hi-fi audio. I thought that was what a > traditional narrow communications freq. response was for. > > I understand the motivation for low distortion (I have some hearing damage > from years as a musician), tho. And I did order a mic with my K3 for > testing > purposes (i.e. to make sure the mic inputs worked, I think the K3 will be > my > first rig with an actual working audio section hi hi) and the audio in the > monitor sure enough sounds very clean. > > I guess that's what I love about digital and CW. You're not stuck with > nearly as much QRM especially with rigs like the K2 and K3 where you can > just squeeze the other signals out as much as you want. > > Oh well, I was just curious, mostly because of my unfamiliarity with the > voice modes, I suppose. > > 73, > LS > W5QD > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/Ten-Tec-never-sounded-so-good-tp4903799p4905156.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/ K3 #679 For everything else there's Mastercard!!! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by lstavenhagen
One last comment - good distortion free speakers make listening to CW
even more pleasant for me. I cannot use headphones witout removing my hearing aids, so I use speakers most of the time. I can sy for certain that "communications quality" speakers are quite irritating for me. even on CW - the distortion becomes irritating after a period of time - even if it is not immediately apparent. I will stick with my wideer range speakers, thank you. 73, Don W3FPR lstavenhagen wrote: > Well I'm not talking about speakers specifically. Just the the motivation for > wideband audio response in general, i.e. ESSB and so on. > As I've said before, the primary reason I don't use the voice modes is that > it's like trying to have a relaxing talk to a friend at a basketball game. > It's fine when the band isn't crowded, but as soon as someone starts butting > in 1 kc above or below you, the last thing, seems to me, that you want is > the other stations using wideband, hi-fi audio. I thought that was what a > traditional narrow communications freq. response was for. > > I understand the motivation for low distortion (I have some hearing damage > from years as a musician), tho. And I did order a mic with my K3 for testing > purposes (i.e. to make sure the mic inputs worked, I think the K3 will be my > first rig with an actual working audio section hi hi) and the audio in the > monitor sure enough sounds very clean. > > I guess that's what I love about digital and CW. You're not stuck with > nearly as much QRM especially with rigs like the K2 and K3 where you can > just squeeze the other signals out as much as you want. > > Oh well, I was just curious, mostly because of my unfamiliarity with the > voice modes, I suppose. > > 73, > LS > W5QD > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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Ok, I'll stop pouring gas on this and I've kind of pulled us off topic anyway, hi hi. So to get back on the original topic. I actually use headphones all the time now, a cheap pair Sonys from the local BestBuy. they're technically "hi fi" phones but the audio quality and filtering on my K2 and K3 is so good that I don't get assaulted with, say, a whole bunch of bass or hiss or etc....
When I use speakers, there always seems to be some acoustic audio notch effect in my room that really pinches the note coming out of the speaker. The headphones get rid of that so I just kept those and never went with an external speaker. A front firing one like we had on the TS-830 in my university's club station (W5EHM at UT Austin) would be nice tho. It too was very low distortion but had poor high and low freq. response making it a good match for the 830. It had a great RX but did hiss a bit, something that is zero problem with my elecrafts. 73, LS W5QD |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Gary Gregory
I agree with Gary on this. There's lots of bad sounding signals on the
bands today. And there's a few good sounding ones too. Most of the bad sounding ones are the result of improperly adjusted radios and associated equipment coupled with poor mike technique. As to the good sounding ones, those operators have figured it out and practice it daily. 73 Bob, K4TAX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gregory" <[hidden email]> To: "lstavenhagen" <[hidden email]> Cc: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > LS, > > You should listen to what we hear in VK Land. > > On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we have a few of those > here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW plus > amplifierrs > and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose and do a quick > QSY..(:-)) > > I no longer answer just "any" CQ these days, but rather I pick those with > good sounding stations and work them instead of putting up with the not so > good signals that are quite common on the bands these days. > > JM2cW > > 73's > Gary > > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:04 PM, lstavenhagen > <[hidden email]>wrote: > >> >> Well I'm not talking about speakers specifically. Just the the motivation >> for >> wideband audio response in general, i.e. ESSB and so on. >> As I've said before, the primary reason I don't use the voice modes is >> that >> it's like trying to have a relaxing talk to a friend at a basketball >> game. >> It's fine when the band isn't crowded, but as soon as someone starts >> butting >> in 1 kc above or below you, the last thing, seems to me, that you want is >> the other stations using wideband, hi-fi audio. I thought that was what a >> traditional narrow communications freq. response was for. >> >> I understand the motivation for low distortion (I have some hearing >> damage >> from years as a musician), tho. And I did order a mic with my K3 for >> testing >> purposes (i.e. to make sure the mic inputs worked, I think the K3 will be >> my >> first rig with an actual working audio section hi hi) and the audio in >> the >> monitor sure enough sounds very clean. >> >> I guess that's what I love about digital and CW. You're not stuck with >> nearly as much QRM especially with rigs like the K2 and K3 where you can >> just squeeze the other signals out as much as you want. >> >> Oh well, I was just curious, mostly because of my unfamiliarity with the >> voice modes, I suppose. >> >> 73, >> LS >> W5QD >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://n2.nabble.com/Ten-Tec-never-sounded-so-good-tp4903799p4905156.html >> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > > > -- > Gary > VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile > http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/ > K3 #679 > For everything else there's Mastercard!!! > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Gary Gregory
<< On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we
have a few of those here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW plus amplifierrs and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose and do a quick QSY..(:-))>> If we are every going to fix things we need to honestly discuss the real problems. I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters with very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals were not high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly chat, we running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving them. A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and were running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a matter of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me had his 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this may be a more common practice then we think. I lowered his radios to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came back for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts again. At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB PEP range, and products out to the 17th order were still strong. For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for the MP. There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters are going to be our undoing. 73 Tom ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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Tom,
This is the "all knobs to the right" syndrome. It just does not sink into some minds that 100 watts is about the maximum that can be realized from a typical "automotive battery voltage" of 13.8 volts without running into unacceptable IMD regions. I certainly don't know how to counter it. There are so many hams who try to squeeze every last ounce of power from whatever transceiver thay may be using that it amazes me. Some will even complain endlessly about all the bad signals on the air while cranking their power control to the maximum and putting out a signal that is as bad or worse than those they are complaining about. I just don't understand the "logic" because it certainly is not logical. 73, Don W3FPR Tom W8JI wrote: > << On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we > have a few of those > here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW > plus amplifierrs > and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose > and do a quick > QSY..(:-))>> > > If we are every going to fix things we need to honestly > discuss the real problems. > > I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters with > very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals were not > high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly chat, we > running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving them. > A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and were > running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a matter > of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me had his > 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this may be > a more common practice then we think. I lowered his radios > to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came back > for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts again. > At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB PEP > range, and products out to the 17th order were still strong. > > For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for > the MP. > > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters > are going to be our undoing. > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by W8JI
> For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for > the MP. If you had not documented that the transistors were only rated for 70W PEP, I would have thought that one of the push-pull pair was open with those results. I don't know what transistors are but those IM plots would suggest the bias is incorrect - which might be logical if RM Italia are using an undersized heatsink. > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters > are going to be our undoing. Very true ... we would be better off with 48V transistors with power levels below 200W PEP. There are several devices capable of 3rd and 5th order IMD better than -40 dB at that power level. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:11 AM > To: Gary Gregory; lstavenhagen > Cc: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > > > << On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we > have a few of those > here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW > plus amplifierrs > and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose > and do a quick > QSY..(:-))>> > > If we are every going to fix things we need to honestly > discuss the real problems. > > I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters with > very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals were not > high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly chat, we > running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving them. > A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and were > running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a matter > of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me had his > 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this may be > a more common practice then we think. I lowered his radios > to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came back > for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts again. > At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB PEP > range, and products out to the 17th order were still strong. > > For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for > the MP. > > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters > are going to be our undoing. > > 73 Tom > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
I don't know how we got trom Ten Tec to here but...
If you follow this forum you might remember that I have complained bitterly about the lousy IMD performance of modern transceivers. I have, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, suggested that there should be a "transceiver figure of merit" that balanced receiver performance against transmitter performance by measuring the former while using a pair of the latter as the signal generators. That said, I do not blame the operator who after buying a "100-watt" radio, sees nothing wrong with actually running it at 100 watts, if he's running it at rated supply voltage. This does not excuse the ops, some who have said this here, "The K3 works fine a 11V input." But when run at rated supply voltage if the transmitter can't deliver decent IMD performance at 100 watts then I fault the manufacturer for calling it a 100-watt radio. I guess 100 is such a nice round number that it is the target, but I remember lots of older radios that were 75-watt and no one seem to have heartache over that. For the life of me I can't understand why radios continue to be designed around an automobile storage battery when fewer than 1% will ever operate in a mobile environment. IMHO, there are simple too many design compromises necessary when designing for "12" volts and/or low receiver current consumption. Wes N7WS --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > To: [hidden email] > Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 7:48 AM > Tom, > > This is the "all knobs to the right" syndrome. It > just does not sink > into some minds that 100 watts is about the maximum that > can be realized > from a typical "automotive battery voltage" of 13.8 volts > without > running into unacceptable IMD regions. > > I certainly don't know how to counter it. There are > so many hams who > try to squeeze every last ounce of power from whatever > transceiver thay > may be using that it amazes me. Some will even > complain endlessly about > all the bad signals on the air while cranking their power > control to the > maximum and putting out a signal that is as bad or worse > than those they > are complaining about. I just don't understand the > "logic" because it > certainly is not logical. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > > Tom W8JI wrote: > > << On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, > although we > > have a few of those > > here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly > adjusted 1KW > > plus amplifierrs > > and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my > nose > > and do a quick > > QSY..(:-))>> > > > > If we are every going to fix things we need to > honestly > > discuss the real problems. > > > > I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters > with > > very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals > were not > > high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly > chat, we > > running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving > them. > > A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and > were > > running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a > matter > > of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me > had his > > 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this > may be > > a more common practice then we think. I lowered his > radios > > to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came > back > > for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts > again. > > At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB > PEP > > range, and products out to the 17th order were still > strong. > > > > For all those intent on boosting low power radios with > a > > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at > any > > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band > for > > the MP. > > > > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios > at > > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all > these > > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > > > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those > cheap > > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 > watters > > are going to be our undoing. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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On 4/15/2010 8:25 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> For the life of me I can't understand why radios continue to be > designed around an automobile storage battery when fewer than 1% > will ever operate in a mobile environment. For those of us who insist that our communications gear operate when the mains power goes off, the 12V DC battery system is the most reasonable backup. Few if any of us have the resources to install a commercial 48V battery system - which is the commercial standard currently - or the 40 KW backup generator or solar array which is what is needed (but don't have) to run my house "off the grid". For communications backup purposes we don't use "automobile storage batteries" which are designed for a large current draw for a short time (engine cranking) and relatively little current draw afterward while the alternator picks up the load. Deep-cycle totally sealed batteries are the standard for communication backup systems of this capacity. My engineering firm designs commercial communication sites primarily for the public safety community and such backup power systems are a very important part of what we do for our clients. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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