Text decode with straight key

[Julian, G4ILO]

My K3 does not decode CW that I send with a straight key. It does if I use a paddle. I presume that is by design, but if so, why?

[Thom LaCosta-2]

At 01:02 PM 10/19/08, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>My K3 does not decode CW that I send with a straight key. It does if I use a
>paddle. I presume that is by design, but if so, why?

Perhaps not to embarrass those of us with less than machine perfect fists?

As I recall it also does not remember what is sent via a straight key.

73
Thom k3hrn

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Thom LaCosta-2 wrote

At 01:02 PM 10/19/08, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>My K3 does not decode CW that I send with a straight key. It does if I use a
>paddle. I presume that is by design, but if so, why?

Perhaps not to embarrass those of us with less than machine perfect fists?

As I recall it also does not remember what is sent via a straight key.

You can't key into memories with a straight key, correct. However if it is useful for users of paddles to have the transmitted code displayed as they send I don't see why that facility should not be extended to users of straight keys. The capability to decode off-air is already there, so couldn't it just decode the sidetone? I was practising by keying an MFJ Cub on a dummy load and receiving on the K3 and it copied my sending perfectly, except the MFJ Cub kept drifting out of the range of the decoder. I would like to have this facility available directly on the K3, as I actually prefer using a straight key.

[Thom LaCosta-2]

At 04:42 AM 10/20/08, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>You can't key into memories with a straight key, correct. However if it is
>useful for users of paddles to have the transmitted code displayed as they
>send I don't see why that facility should not be extended to users of
>straight keys.

Doesn't make sense that it can't save the input from a straight
key...unless it is so
digital that only "perfect" code can be stored.

>  I would
>like to have this facility available directly on the K3, as I actually
>prefer using a straight key.

Perhaps the discrimination against manual keys was an oversight that
can easily be
corrected.....it would be a real shame to have to use an external
device to store
key sent with a straight key.

Thom

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[M0XDF]

>> You can't key into memories with a straight key, correct. However  
>> if it is
>> useful for users of paddles to have the transmitted code displayed  
>> as they
>> send I don't see why that facility should not be extended to users of
>> straight keys.
>
> Doesn't make sense that it can't save the input from a straight  
> key...unless it is so
> digital that only "perfect" code can be stored.

No, but it makes sense that the K3 knows whether you closed the dot or  
dash paddle and therefore probably stores this as a digit, perhaps 1  
for dit and 2 for dah, zeo for space?


Ok Wayne/Eric/Lyle - I want to know now - how do you store the Morse  
in the memories?
--
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask  
remains a fool forever. -Chinese proverb

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[Julian, G4ILO]

David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote

No, but it makes sense that the K3 knows whether you closed the dot or  
dash paddle and therefore probably stores this as a digit, perhaps 1  
for dit and 2 for dah, zeo for space?

Ok Wayne/Eric/Lyle - I want to know now - how do you store the Morse  
in the memories?

I wasn't too bothered about being unable to program the memories with a straight key, although that would make it possible to use a computer keyer to program them, which somebody might find useful. No, I just thought having the TX Decode available for straight keys would be a nice aid to improving one's sending.

[M0XDF]

Yes agreed, but I guess they can't decode for the same reason.
I use an MFJ Morse decoder to tell me if I'm sending crap - it's not  
good and badly sent Morse, but since I want to know if I'm seeing good  
code, it's ok
--
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them,  
and
pretty soon you have a dozen.
--John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 20 Oct 2008, at 13:39, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>
>
>
> David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>>
>>
>> No, but it makes sense that the K3 knows whether you closed the dot  
>> or
>> dash paddle and therefore probably stores this as a digit, perhaps 1
>> for dit and 2 for dah, zeo for space?
>>
>> Ok Wayne/Eric/Lyle - I want to know now - how do you store the Morse
>> in the memories?
>>
>>
> I wasn't too bothered about being unable to program the memories  
> with a
> straight key, although that would make it possible to use a computer  
> keyer
> to program them, which somebody might find useful. No, I just  
> thought having
> the TX Decode available for straight keys would be a nice aid to  
> improving
> one's sending.

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[Ralph Parker]

>>You can't key into memories with a straight key...
>Doesn't make sense that it can't save the input from a straight key...
>...it would be a real shame to have to use an external device to store
>key sent with a straight key.

I guess I'm a bit 'thick', but I can't imagine why you would want to do this.
Maybe because I've been using an external keyer for years, which has
spoiled me with its memories.
Perhaps you could have a friend program the K3 memories for you.
I occasionally use a straight key too (SKN and teaching Morse at my club),
but see no need to save the output.

As far as using a reader to see if you're sending good CW, I'd suggest
getting on the air and having a CW QSO. The guy on the other end will tell
you if you're sending readable CW. (And I have heard some that aren't!)
A code reader (computer) can't decode hand-sent Morse because it isn't
exact enough.

VE7XF

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[Thom LaCosta-2]

At 01:01 PM 10/20/08, Ralph Parker wrote:


>I guess I'm a bit 'thick', but I can't imagine why you would want to do this.

To save certain segments, like qth, etc, or a "brag tape" if you will
in my fist, not that of the machine...

>As far as using a reader to see if you're sending good CW, I'd suggest
>getting on the air and having a CW QSO.

Duh....if one listens to the sidetone, you can usually ascertain how
bad you fist is....after all, you are
copying code, right?


>A code reader (computer) can't decode hand-sent Morse because it isn't
>exact enough.

Or that the hand sent code isn't "machine-like" enough ... it relies
on wet-ware detection....old fashioned
technology.

73,
Thom k3hrn

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[M0XDF]

Hi Ron, I'd completely agree with that, having used G4FON's excellent  
Koch trainer to get started, I found copying my mentor's Morse a  
little difficult when I first started and he sends very good Morse on  
a S/K. But after a little while, I got better at it. I'm up to ~ 8 WPM  
with him now.
I need to listen a lot on the bands now and try to copy, so I'm not  
completely blown away by a different fist. Oh and I've taken on board  
something both he and someone else I spoke with in JOTA at the weekend  
have repeatedly said - just have Morse playing in the background, the  
brain absorbs it, in the same way we first absorb human speech when we  
are a baby.

Lastly, why am I saying Morse all the time and not CW? Because I feel  
CW has the connotation of transmitted Morse via carrier wave (a mode),  
were as Morse means the 'code', but maybe not transmitted, maybe  
played from a recording. - Feel free to correct me.

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
I don't mind that you think slowly but I do mind that you are publishing
faster than you think.
-Wolfgang Pauli, physicist, Nobel laureate (1900-1958)

On 21 Oct 2008, at 04:04, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> IMHO, if someone wants to be really proficient at reading Morse,  
> they need
> to practice, practice, practice reading a variety of not-so-perfect  
> manual
> fists. That's the next step beyond learning to copy machine-perfect  
> CW.

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[David Cutter]

My advice is to send as well as receive.  Get a short automatic recording of something repetitive at a speed you are comfortable with and send along side it - mimicking the code that you hear.  This is a good way to build up a good fist.  I used to copy a point to point station that sent its long call sign over and over.  Get someone else to check your sending and compare yourself to automatic recordings.  Sending reinforces the characters into your memory by another route.

Then try sending without paper in front of you; just common stuff like your rig and QTH, name etc.  Once you are on the air and getting your feet wet with live contacts, you don't have stuff to copy, you take it direct from the brain.  That's quite a jump forward and you need to prepare for it.   As a beginner on air, you can have a card with salient points you often mention in your QSOs but you dispense with that when you've done it often enough.

It's exciting.

73

David
G3UNA

>
> From: "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2008/10/21 Tue AM 09:29:11 BST
> To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: [K3] Text decode with straight key - OT now
>
> Hi Ron, I'd completely agree with that, having used G4FON's excellent  
> Koch trainer to get started, I found copying my mentor's Morse a  
> little difficult when I first started and he sends very good Morse on  
> a S/K. But after a little while, I got better at it. I'm up to ~ 8 WPM  
> with him now.
> I need to listen a lot on the bands now and try to copy, so I'm not  
> completely blown away by a different fist. Oh and I've taken on board  
> something both he and someone else I spoke with in JOTA at the weekend  
> have repeatedly said - just have Morse playing in the background, the  
> brain absorbs it, in the same way we first absorb human speech when we  
> are a baby.
>
> Lastly, why am I saying Morse all the time and not CW? Because I feel  
> CW has the connotation of transmitted Morse via carrier wave (a mode),  
> were as Morse means the 'code', but maybe not transmitted, maybe  
> played from a recording. - Feel free to correct me.
>
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
> --
> I don't mind that you think slowly but I do mind that you are publishing
> faster than you think.
> -Wolfgang Pauli, physicist, Nobel laureate (1900-1958)
>
> On 21 Oct 2008, at 04:04, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> > IMHO, if someone wants to be really proficient at reading Morse,  
> > they need
> > to practice, practice, practice reading a variety of not-so-perfect  
> > manual
> > fists. That's the next step beyond learning to copy machine-perfect  
> > CW.
>
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[M0XDF]

Thanks David, yes, been sending too, both to my mentor, G3NCN (he  
sends a char or a word, I tell him what it is and send it back) and  
also sending text (normally the contents of a page-a-day calendar for  
yesterday :-) via an oscillator to an MFJ code reader - that is very  
unforgiving, so my sending is apparently pretty good and improving  
daily.
Every now and then, I send my call and bits - sending a complete over  
is a good idea.
I've had a couple of shaky QSOs on air with G3NCN and felt I needed a  
little more practice - I'm not key shy, but I am Tx shy - HiHi
I have a crib sheet - yes I need you jump in and get on with it.
--
One can pay back the loan of gold, but one dies forever in debt to those
who are kind. -Malayan Proverb

On 21 Oct 2008, at 10:28, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My advice is to send as well as receive.  Get a short automatic  
> recording of something repetitive at a speed you are comfortable  
> with and send along side it - mimicking the code that you hear.  
> This is a good way to build up a good fist.  I used to copy a point  
> to point station that sent its long call sign over and over.  Get  
> someone else to check your sending and compare yourself to automatic  
> recordings.  Sending reinforces the characters into your memory by  
> another route.
>
> Then try sending without paper in front of you; just common stuff  
> like your rig and QTH, name etc.  Once you are on the air and  
> getting your feet wet with live contacts, you don't have stuff to  
> copy, you take it direct from the brain.  That's quite a jump  
> forward and you need to prepare for it.   As a beginner on air, you  
> can have a card with salient points you often mention in your QSOs  
> but you dispense with that when you've done it often enough.

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Time to end this thread to reduce email overload. ;-)

The bottom line is that to my knowledge no radio on the market decodes a straight key to program memories (or send data). Adding this to our code would take a fair amount of work and to be honest, we need to allocate the remaining code space, and engineering coding time, to the other high priority K3 features and enhancements. :-)

73, Eric   WA6HHQ
----

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

-----Original Message-----
  

A code reader (computer) can't decode hand-sent Morse because it isn't 
exact enough.
    

Or that the hand sent code isn't "machine-like" enough ... it relies 
on wet-ware detection....old fashioned
technology.

73,
Thom k3hrn
  

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