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The 1500 watt amp

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Ken Arck

Re: The 1500 watt amp

As those of us active in EME would say..

No s*** <g>

Ken

At 04:04 PM 8/1/2016, Josh Fiden wrote:

>If cost per QSO were a concern, no one would ever work EME. Just sayin'.
>
>Back to waiting for this thread to die!
>
>73,
>Josh W6XU
>
>On 8/1/2016 10:47 AM, Fred Moore wrote:
>>I always wonder that some of you guys "cost/QSO" is..
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
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"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: The 1500 watt amp

Administrator

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

We are well past the single topic posting limit on this thread.

Let's close the thread for now in the interest of relieving email overload for our other readers.

73,
Eric
Moderator (from wherever I may be..)
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Aug 1, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Ken Arck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As those of us active in EME would say..
>
> No s*** <g>
>
> Ken
>
>
> At 04:04 PM 8/1/2016, Josh Fiden wrote:
>> If cost per QSO were a concern, no one would ever work EME. Just sayin'.
>>
>> Back to waiting for this thread to die!
>>
>> 73,
>> Josh W6XU
>>
>>> On 8/1/2016 10:47 AM, Fred Moore wrote:
>>> I always wonder that some of you guys "cost/QSO" is..
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> President and CTO - Arcom Communications
> Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
> http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
> Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
> we offer complete repeater packages!
> AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
> http://www.irlp.net
> "We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Gilbert

Re: The 1500 watt amp

In reply to this post by Mike Markowski-2

An amp helps tremendously on receive if the guy with the amp is on the
other end of the QSO from you. And if you can't hear him you aren't
going to make the contact.

It has been said before many times, and I'm living proof of it ... an
amplifier is the most cost effective way to improve the QSO rate for
everyone that there is. If everyone used amplifiers it would be the
equivalent of dropping the background QRN level by ten or more db ... a
huge amount. And spare me the argument that QRM would increase (if
everyone had amps) ...it wouldn't, because the water level would simply
rise for everyone.

Dave AB7E

>>
>> On 8/1/16 9:50 AM, Jerry Moore wrote:
>>> I don't see the point of having a large power amp. It doesn't help
>>> receive.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Just my view.
>>> Jer
>

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: The 1500 watt amp

Re "And spare me the argument that QRM would
increase (if everyone had amps) ...it wouldn't,
because the water level would simply rise for
everyone.": A Global Warming analogy, Dave? :-)

73, Phil W7OX

On 8/1/16 8:27 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> An amp helps tremendously on receive if the guy
> with the amp is on the other end of the QSO from
> you. And if you can't hear him you aren't going
> to make the contact.
>
> It has been said before many times, and I'm
> living proof of it ... an amplifier is the most
> cost effective way to improve the QSO rate for
> everyone that there is. If everyone used
> amplifiers it would be the equivalent of
> dropping the background QRN level by ten or more
> db ... a huge amount. And spare me the argument
> that QRM would increase (if everyone had amps)
> ...it wouldn't, because the water level would
> simply rise for everyone.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> On 8/1/16 9:50 AM, Jerry Moore wrote:
>>>> I don't see the point of having a large power
>>>> amp. It doesn't help receive.
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Just my view.
>>>> Jer

David Gilbert

Re: The 1500 watt amp

In reply to this post by Jerry Moore

The gain/loss for antennas/feedline is immaterial ... it is there no
matter whether you have an amp or not. The difference between 500 watts
and 1500 watts is 4.77 db, which is huge if you're trying to work weak
DX. Check out:

http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html

Getting an additional 4.77 db out of different feedline is a ridiculous
expectation unless you're currently using wet clothsline for feedline,
and a used amp is almost always cheaper (and less obtrusive to the
neighborhood assuming you don't overdrive it) than putting up a taller
tower and bigger antennas.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Elecraft should
produce a 1500 watt amplifier, but the idea that big amps aren't cost
effective is a particularly silly argument for them to not build one.

Dave AB7E

On 8/1/2016 1:13 PM, Jerry More wrote:

> We just differ in opinion and I’m happy for everyone to enjoy the hobby as they are able. The issues I see is where the Amateur code is broken. Just listen on DX pileups sometime and you’ll hear guys that really make us look bad as a community.
>
> About the only time I can imagine someone needing power is perhaps a DX station but that’s IF they can actually hear.
> Doing the math I am probably missing something because I don’t see much of a gain from 500w to 1.5kw into the same antenna system.
> From memory 500w to 1k is 3db and 1k to 1.5kw is 1.5 db, so 500w to 1.5kw is 4.5db
> 6db is 1 S unit (from memory) so running a 1.5kw amp gives just less than 1 S unit.
>
> Now start factoring up the DB gain/loss for antennas/feedline.
>
> Which gives the best bang for the buck??
>
> Maybe I’m just slow. Seems to me a nice, instant on 500w solid state with quality low loss feed line into a matched antenna should rock and roll.
>
> This thread should probably die.
>
> Enjoy the hobby as you wish. Just know any station who worked em with less power just owned you regardless of your budget 😊
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Mike Markowski
> Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 2:03 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The 1500 watt amp
>
> Jer & Fred,
>
> You're right from a certain point of view. But also consider more
> generally that it's about link budget; maximize gains, minimize losses.
> How much of each a ham can do comes down to money & motivation within
> lifestyle (& FCC!) constraints.
>
> 73,
> Mike ab3ap
>
> On 08/01/2016 01:47 PM, Fred Moore wrote:
>> I'm with you Jer..
>>
>> I always wonder that some of you guys "cost/QSO" is.. it only a hobby,
>> [...]
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> On 8/1/16 9:50 AM, Jerry Moore wrote:
>>> I don't see the point of having a large power amp. It doesn't help receive.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Just my view.
>>> Jer
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: The 1500 watt amp: THREAD CLOSED

Administrator

Folks, The 1500W threads were closed many hours ago due to their high volume. Please take the discussion off list for now.

73,

Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

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Geoffrey Downs

Re: - Wayne's Alter Ego

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

You can do it Wayne - but later. I was a wannabe author for decades, then realised the ambition after I retired. I published my first novel last year under a pen name (William Coniston). It's for young people from 8 to 75+! See my QRZ.com page for details or check out Amazon:

USA: http://tinyurl.com/WmConistonUSA

UK: http://tinyurl.com/WmConiston

Royalties help feed my Elecraft habit :)

73 to all

Geoff
G3UCK

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick
Sent: 2 August, 2016 12:07 AM
To: N2TK, Tony
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The 1500 watt amp

You do. My alter ego is a wannabe author. Unfortunately time is a zero-sum game (think Jake and his Avatar). Cloning would be a better solution, but it's not in my budget.

Wayne

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Jerry Moore

Re: Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Ron, you can't teach some people manners. Just like on the air you have to just ignore them until they get bored and go away.
I'm not directing my statement to anyone specific so if you're offended by it then it probably fits.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 5:28 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?

A serious mistake some antenna-limited Hams make is to try to make up for a poor antenna near the ground with more power. A situation like Jim brings up would likely produce a number of ill effects such as:

1) Producing interference in many nearby pieces of equipment from Hi-Fi systems to DVRs, broadcast receivers, etc.

2) If the antenna is not carefully insulated and isolated, animals and people can receive very painful RF burns and in the extreme set fires. For those who have not experienced a severe RF burn, it instantly creates deep tissue damage that is very painful for days or weeks afterward.

3) Short antennas (whips, short wires, etc.) easily produce corona discharges at their ends that distorts the transmitted signal and creates broadband Hash across the ham bands.

4) It becomes very difficult to ensure people are not subjected to excessive RF exposure if the antenna is not up high and in the clear.

73, Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Bennett
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 11:23 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?

Wayne, if it turns out to be a survey, put me down for a NO vote. I run my station in a HOA/CCR neighborhood and use thin, stealthy wire antennas. I’m surprised they don’t vaporize as it is with the 500 watts or so coming out of my KPA500 - on the rare occasions when I do run QRO!

Jim / W6JHB

(p.s. - and another reason for a no vote is that I’d be talking in a much higher tone if I told my XYL (KF6ZNT) if I was gonna buy a big buck amp!)

> On Monday, Aug 1, 2016, at Monday, 9:55 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This would be extreme overkill, IMHO. I suggest a simple survey instead.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:20 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think that crowdfunding a KPA1500 would help to get Elecraft going again on a big amp.
>> Crowdfunding would also give a good indication on how many KPA1500's you could sell in the market as it is today.
>>
>> 73
>> Arie PA3A
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N2TK

Re: EC2 Clone (Was The 1500 watt amp)

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Nice work. Definitely looks better than some of the prototype boxes I have
had to make over the years.
73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes
Stewart
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 6:26 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] EC2 Clone (Was The 1500 watt amp)

Nice work!

I too have built my own enclosures with similar techniques. A couple of my
projects can be seen here: http://sadxa.org/n7ws.html#amp

Although at the time I had access to a prototype workshop, I have done
similar work at home with comparable results. If possible, I avoid bends.
In all of this stuff I used 0.062" 6061-T6 material so it wasn't going to
bend anyway.
The harder alloy drills like a dream. For all of the corner joinery I used
3/8"
square stock, 8/32 threads and stainless steel screws

In the protoshop, I had access to a shear but all of the sheared edges were
still smoothed by hand. I had a granite surface plate and used a vernier
height gauge for layout so similar parts were interchangeable. In the home
shop I lay out as carefully as possible and match drill on a drill press.
Most people can't tell the difference. With a lot of elbow grease a hacksaw
works, although after a lot of furniture building and finish sanding, I
needed rotator cuff surgery so I don't do that anymore. With extreme care
and I do mean extreme, a carbide toothed blade on a table saw will cut
aluminum if it's thick enough and the blade has fine enough teeth.
Otherwise I use a bandsaw, which is always safer, if less precise.

In the protoshop I had access to chemical dip baths for passivating the
aluminum, silver plating the RF parts and a panograph engraver for panel
lettering. Silver looks nice, but is highly overrated as an RF conductor.*
In the home shop, before the un-elected bureaucrats in DC decided we were
too stupid to handle lye (judging by the electorate they may be right), I
would etch aluminum in a lye bath, rinse and neutralize with vinegar and a
final water rinse. This would yield a nice satin finish. The best I have
found since is oven cleaner.

Another finish, if you like the look, can be had by using a random-orbit
sander Play with the grit until you find something you like. Sanding it wet
with a little cutting oil can be fun, albeit messy, too.

Tube amplifier still have their virtues and, along with antennas, can be
great roll-your-own projects that can work better than what you can buy.

Wes N7Ws

* http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Plating.pdf

On 8/1/2016 9:36 AM, EricJ wrote:
> If you can build whatever you want, you can easily build the
> enclosure. Here is an EC2 clone I built last week in about 6 hours. I
> made the side panels with a hacksaw, file and drill press. The front
> panel I cut and formed with an inexpensive 8" shear/brake. This one is
> branded Grizzly, but Harbor Freight has them as well. I didn't use the
> Elecraft 2D fasteners because I only had 2 on hand and didn't want to
> make a bunch of little fussy pieces. I used 4 long sections of 1/4"
> square aluminum stock and drilled them with the same hole pattern as
> the 2D fasteners. The front panel will get painted after I drill and punch
it for the current project.
>
> https://flic.kr/p/KBivtc
>
> The smaller K1 enclosure is nearly the same design (slightly different
> top
> cover) so it scales down easily. It would scale up for a large amp
> just as easily. The cost of the EC2-clone was about $4 in materials
(0.080" and 0.050"
> sheet and 1/4" bar stock). All can be built with a hacksaw, file and a
> hand drill. A bandsaw and a drill press make it more precise. A
> shear/brake makes it even easier.
>
> Eric KE6US

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James Bennett

Re: Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Ron,

No offense taken - I understand your intentions for the reply. Low antennas are a formula for trouble if proper precautions aren't taken. Common sense "should" come into play, but we've all seen or heard of examples of hams so focused on the antenna itself, they fail to think about what might happen if it falls, someone touches it, etc.

And who knows, maybe we'll meet on 30 meter CW - I hang out there quite a bit, too!

73, Jim

Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA

> On Aug 1, 2016, at 7:54 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sorry Jim. What I was referring to were your words "I run my station in a HOA/CCR neighborhood and use thin, stealthy wire antennas."
>
> I'm sure you realize that many Hams in that situation have antennas running along fences, even sometimes indoors, or short whips and loops on a balcony.
>
> It's good that it doesn't apply to you specifically but a great many Hams in an HOA/CCR environment must live with a "stealth" antenna systems like those.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Bennett
> Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:05 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?
>
> Huh????? How does my situation even closely border on producing “ill effects”? This is NOT the situation here, so let’s set the record straight.
>
> 1) My stealthy wire doublet is 45 feet in the air. I experience ZERO RFI problems even at the 500 watt level. Nor do my neighbors, who I’ve asked several times if there are issues.
>
> 2) I would be interested to see what sort of person or animal is going to come into contact with an antenna at that height. Actually, maybe I don’t want to see - might be pretty scary sight.
>
> 3) Don’t know where my post mentioned whips or short wires. None here at this station.
>
> 4) True, but again, not here.
>
> My post simply was intended to convey my desire and reason why I do NOT want to run any more power than I already do, and any correlation of my installation to someone with a dipole five feet off the ground or experiencing RFI is off the mark. And not fully appreciated.
>
>
>> On Monday, Aug 1, 2016, at Monday, 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> ... A situation like Jim brings up would likely produce a number of ill effects such as:
>>
>> 1) Producing interference in many nearby pieces of equipment from Hi-Fi systems to DVRs, broadcast receivers, etc.
>>
>> 2) If the antenna is not carefully insulated and isolated, animals and people can receive very painful RF burns and in the extreme set fires. For those who have not experienced a severe RF burn, it instantly creates deep tissue damage that is very painful for days or weeks afterward.
>>
>> 3) Short antennas (whips, short wires, etc.) easily produce corona discharges at their ends that distorts the transmitted signal and creates broadband Hash across the ham bands.
>>
>> 4) It becomes very difficult to ensure people are not subjected to excessive RF exposure if the antenna is not up high and in the clear.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Michael Walker

Re: Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?

What be the price point for this amp?

What would the average ham pay? And elecraft needs to make a profit after all they aren't a charity.

Mike va3mw

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:56 AM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> No offense taken - I understand your intentions for the reply. Low antennas are a formula for trouble if proper precautions aren't taken. Common sense "should" come into play, but we've all seen or heard of examples of hams so focused on the antenna itself, they fail to think about what might happen if it falls, someone touches it, etc.
>
> And who knows, maybe we'll meet on 30 meter CW - I hang out there quite a bit, too!
>
> 73, Jim
>
> Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> Folsom, CA
>
>> On Aug 1, 2016, at 7:54 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Jim. What I was referring to were your words "I run my station in a HOA/CCR neighborhood and use thin, stealthy wire antennas."
>>
>> I'm sure you realize that many Hams in that situation have antennas running along fences, even sometimes indoors, or short whips and loops on a balcony.
>>
>> It's good that it doesn't apply to you specifically but a great many Hams in an HOA/CCR environment must live with a "stealth" antenna systems like those.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Bennett
>> Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:05 PM
>> To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Crowdfunding a 1500 watt amp - SURVEY?
>>
>> Huh????? How does my situation even closely border on producing “ill effects”? This is NOT the situation here, so let’s set the record straight.
>>
>> 1) My stealthy wire doublet is 45 feet in the air. I experience ZERO RFI problems even at the 500 watt level. Nor do my neighbors, who I’ve asked several times if there are issues.
>>
>> 2) I would be interested to see what sort of person or animal is going to come into contact with an antenna at that height. Actually, maybe I don’t want to see - might be pretty scary sight.
>>
>> 3) Don’t know where my post mentioned whips or short wires. None here at this station.
>>
>> 4) True, but again, not here.
>>
>> My post simply was intended to convey my desire and reason why I do NOT want to run any more power than I already do, and any correlation of my installation to someone with a dipole five feet off the ground or experiencing RFI is off the mark. And not fully appreciated.
>>
>>
>>> On Monday, Aug 1, 2016, at Monday, 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> ... A situation like Jim brings up would likely produce a number of ill effects such as:
>>>
>>> 1) Producing interference in many nearby pieces of equipment from Hi-Fi systems to DVRs, broadcast receivers, etc.
>>>
>>> 2) If the antenna is not carefully insulated and isolated, animals and people can receive very painful RF burns and in the extreme set fires. For those who have not experienced a severe RF burn, it instantly creates deep tissue damage that is very painful for days or weeks afterward.
>>>
>>> 3) Short antennas (whips, short wires, etc.) easily produce corona discharges at their ends that distorts the transmitted signal and creates broadband Hash across the ham bands.
>>>
>>> 4) It becomes very difficult to ensure people are not subjected to excessive RF exposure if the antenna is not up high and in the clear.
>>
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