The Chinese KX3
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Hmmm ... am I the only one who thinks this is a joke? Maybe it's really
a lightweight, QRP version of the Retroencabulator. It didn't have any labels on the controls either. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org On 4/13/2012 7:12 AM, John Harper wrote: > Imitation, the sincerest form of flattery: > http://www.cqdx.ru/ham/new-equipment/chienese-answer-to-elecraft-kx3-version/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Ian Kahn - Ham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...none of the percentages provided above are in any way > statistically/scientifically generated. They are my observations... ======== Ah Ian, you set a splendid example for the rest of us. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Fred,
You are not alone - it looks like something someone cobbled together for a joke. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/13/2012 4:10 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > Hmmm ... am I the only one who thinks this is a joke? Maybe it's really > a lightweight, QRP version of the Retroencabulator. It didn't have any > labels on the controls either. > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Fred Jensen wrote:
> Retro Encabulator This is about as OT as it gets, folks, but in case you missed it, here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w It's a hoot. Wayne ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Thanks Wayne, that was great!
73 Stephen G4SJP On Friday, 13 April 2012, Wayne Burdick wrote: > Fred Jensen wrote: > > > Retro Encabulator > > This is about as OT as it gets, folks, but in case you missed it, > here's the video: > > Rockwell Retro Encabulator <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w> > > It's a hoot. > > Wayne > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
*Wayne,
What impressed me the most was that the spokesperson was able to say all that without cracking a hint of a smile..:-) You so right, it is a hoot....grin Gary * On 14 April 2012 06:44, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > Fred Jensen wrote: > > > Retro Encabulator > > This is about as OT as it gets, folks, but in case you missed it, > here's the video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w > > It's a hoot. > > Wayne > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hehe. He said "Panametric Pham" and "Dingle Arm".
:-) David, W4SMT > > This is about as OT as it gets, folks, but in case you > missed it, > > here's the video: > > > >Â Â Â http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w > > > > It's a hoot. > > > > Wayne > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > > > > -- > Gary > VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile > Elecraft Equipment > K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 > Living the dream!!! > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Harper AE5X
Not sure what sort of response you were trolling for here, Jim. It sounds as
though you feel Elecraft has priced their products and accessories at a non-competitive level? Or that the performance or function does not justify the costs? I guess I just don't understand. The fact is, competition is good. When companies products compete for the consumer's dollar (or yen/euro/etc), the consumer wins in the form of choices. Some will prefer a less costly item by giving up a particular capability. Some will not be able to afford the higher priced product and will buy what suits his/her situation. All such decisions are compromises. Sometimes, advances in technology make a particular capability feasible at a lower price point or smaller size, less weight, etc. An example would be all the modes and functions available in a modern SDR/firmware based radio like the K3 or KX3, vs. trying to do all the same functions in hardware. I find Elecraft products to be exceptional performers, at a fair price. That does not mean they are the cheapest on the market. By no means. However, when you compare features and performance, the Elecraft products are what I would call fairly priced. I have never felt that I was being overcharged for something I felt should cost less. This is especially true when considering the economies of scale and development costs in a small company dedicated to a niche business. I am also not sure what you mean by the "absurdity of the current add on costs" either. One of the appealing features of the Elecraft product line is the ability for the consumer to only purchase those accessories that are needed. Many folks don't need or want an internal automatic antenna coupler. Fine, don't order it. However- as I said- I have found that those items are well designed, and often offer performance that is on par with or exceeds other available products. Elecraft also rightly includes tight integration between their products, such as the KPA500/K3, that offer additional functionality that should be included in judging the "rightness" of a price point. I have owned a fairly wide variety of equipment over my 25+ years as an amateur. Not as much as some- but I have purchased, (and built my own) enough to recognize the value of the Elecraft products. I still enjoy using my 602-based mono-band rigs I've built, and I still enjoy home-brewing. But there is also room in my stable for the "Elegant Craftsmanship" of Elecraft gear. I am fortunate in that respect. Elecraft does not strive to produce the lowest cost products. They provide high quality, high performance products at prices that reflect this. This is my experience. Beauty is in the eye. 72/73, Bruce, N1RX > If they can produce a similar product at a reduced cost, including the > absurdity of the current add on costs that Elecraft charges, good for > them! > Hope they are successful - "successful" meaning their version offers like > functions and specifications, at a reduced cost! > 72, Jim R. K9JWV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Fleming-2
Dingle Arms are still legal for import into the US however Panametric
Phams do not meet Part 15 requirements and may only be imported by BPL providers. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org On 4/13/2012 2:49 PM, David Fleming wrote: > Hehe. He said "Panametric Pham" and "Dingle Arm". ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Rodenkirch
I can give you some information about Elecraft product reliability based
on my past experience. I repair the Elecraft "legacy" transceivers - K1, K2 and KX1. Based on serial numbers, there are about 13,000 of those transceivers out in the world. I have repaired about 700 of those, and Gary Surrency (official Elecraft support) has repaired more than I have (but our numbers are close). There are some Builders for Hire that have repaired some too, and there is a service facility in Germany and in Italy and Japan that has handled some repairs too (I do not have their numbers), so you can add some "fudge factor" to account for those extra centers doing Elecraft repairs. Considering that about 80 percent or more of those repairs are actually builders errors or owner induced conditions or the owner just wanted us to align and calibrate the transceiver, I would estimate that the true failure rate is about 2% -- and that is over the product life that we know about to date (12+ years for the K2). We rarely see component failures that do not have an identifiable cause - in other words "it just failed for no known reason" is rare indeed. If you run the MTBF numbers on those assemblies and compare them to the above numbers, I think you will see that the Elecraft transceivers are quite reliable. That is consistent with my view of modern electronics, devices seldom fail, but when they do, Elecraft devices can be repaired - contrast that with your failed iPad or iPhone - plus a lot of (no-cost) phone and email support is available so you can "fix it yourself" at Elecraft. If you have doubts about my numbers, you are invited to review my repair reports, but I would have to blank out the customer's identification first and round off the serial number so no customer could be identified. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/13/2012 1:28 PM, James Rodenkirch wrote: > If Elecraft service is so damn good, tell me how reliable their product is? Or are you talking about marketing/sales service vice product supportability service?? > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
The original one, from the 70's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag&feature=related PY1KN > Dingle Arms are still legal for import into the US however Panametric > Phams do not meet Part 15 requirements and may only be imported by BPL > providers. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > - Northern California Contest Club > - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 > - www.cqp.org > > On 4/13/2012 2:49 PM, David Fleming wrote: >> Hehe. He said "Panametric Pham" and "Dingle Arm". > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Rodenkirch
Jim,
What exactly is absurd about the add on costs that Elecraft charges, in your opinion ??? That's the statement that sticks out to me as being absurd in your mail. You buy the accessories you want/need and add it up. The total KX3 price after doing that doesn't seem absurd to me. Not extremely cheap either, I'd agree, but most certainly not absurdly expensive. There are Chinese knock-offs of many product categories. Generally, the Chinese versions are reasonable value for money but the equation generally does include a much lower build quality and feature set and a much lower support level. To take the Wouxuns for example, they are great rigs for the price, but the more expensive ones from Yaewoodcom do have a definitive edge on quality and how well they are thought out. It's just questionable if they are worth paying so much extra for, and personally I'm happy with my Wouxun. But for something as primary to my ham operating as my main portable HF rig, I won't settle for such a compromise. 73, Thomas M0TRN On 13 April 2012 21:55, James Rodenkirch <[hidden email]> wrote: > If - IF - they can produce a similar product at a reduced cost, including > the absurdity of the current add on costs that Elecraft charges, good for > them! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I built a 1/10th scale model of a similar device in my basement woodshop.
It is very inefficient. I don't have the metal working skills to duplicate it full size. Maybe I could sell it to a far east government as a satellite delivery guidance system. No trees were harmed in the sending of this e-mail; however, many electrons were inconvenienced. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 4:44 PM To: [hidden email] Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Retro Encabulator Fred Jensen wrote: > Retro Encabulator This is about as OT as it gets, folks, but in case you missed it, here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w It's a hoot. Wayne ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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The Far East Government is too sophisticated to accomplish a sale. You
might want to try to sell if to the Elbonian nation although Dilbert and "Pointy Hair Boss" should be consulted for permission prior to any contact. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/13/2012 6:31 PM, Joe K2UF wrote: > I built a 1/10th scale model of a similar device in my basement woodshop. > It is very inefficient. I don't have the metal working skills to duplicate > it full size. Maybe I could sell it to a far east government as a satellite > delivery guidance system. > > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Apologies to those on the list who are not familiar with the Dilbert
comic strip. It is one of my favorites, even though I no longer work in the "captive office" world - I am a "free agent". 73, Don W3FPR On 4/13/2012 6:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > The Far East Government is too sophisticated to accomplish a sale. You > might want to try to sell if to the Elbonian nation although Dilbert and > "Pointy Hair Boss" should be consulted for permission prior to any contact. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 4/13/2012 6:31 PM, Joe K2UF wrote: >> I built a 1/10th scale model of a similar device in my basement woodshop. >> It is very inefficient. I don't have the metal working skills to duplicate >> it full size. Maybe I could sell it to a far east government as a satellite >> delivery guidance system. >> >> >> >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Thomas Horsten
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Just one thing to say on this:
Don't feed the trolls... -- Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY On Apr 13, 2012, at 6:49 PM, James Rodenkirch <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Elecraft follows the Apple model - or vice versa...who knows! Basic "product" is sorta "ok" from a costing perspective but one starts to "cringe" at $60.00 microphones and $170.00 20 watt antenna tuners and $170.00 iambic keys...just sorta seems high end pricing... I could go and price out external versions but that would detract from the Elecraft model - purchase the basic rig and toss in lots of extras that fit into the rig and keep you one of the "Elecraft faithful." > > Your statement, "Generally, the Chinese versions are reasonable value for money but the equation generally does include a much lower build quality and feature set and a much lower support level" is sorta intriguing....just what is a "lower build quality" and "feature set" and "lower support level" mean? > > Quote me some numbers and we can chat further....Jim R. > > > > From: [hidden email] > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:02:25 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [QRP-L] The Chinese KX3 > To: [hidden email] > CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email] > > Jim, > > > > What exactly is absurd about the add on costs that Elecraft charges, in your opinion ??? > > > That's the statement that sticks out to me as being absurd in your mail. You buy the accessories you want/need and add it up. The total KX3 price after doing that doesn't seem absurd to me. Not extremely cheap either, I'd agree, but most certainly not absurdly expensive. > > > There are Chinese knock-offs of many product categories. Generally, the Chinese versions are reasonable value for money but the equation generally does include a much lower build quality and feature set and a much lower support level. > > > To take the Wouxuns for example, they are great rigs for the price, but the more expensive ones from Yaewoodcom do have a definitive edge on quality and how well they are thought out. It's just questionable if they are worth paying so much extra for, and personally I'm happy with my Wouxun. But for something as primary to my ham operating as my main portable HF rig, I won't settle for such a compromise. > > > 73, Thomas M0TRN > > > On 13 April 2012 21:55, James Rodenkirch <[hidden email]> wrote: > > If - IF - they can produce a similar product at a reduced cost, including the absurdity of the current add on costs that Elecraft charges, good for them! > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [QRP-L] The Chinese KX3 [END of Thread]
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In reply to this post by Jim Rodenkirch
Let's let this thread rest in the interest of improving list SNR.
73, Eric List Modulator --- www.elecraft.com On 4/13/2012 1:55 PM, James Rodenkirch wrote: > Snort! Your "observations," are as anecdotal as can be and.....continue to make my point --- a point that was started when I sent out the reply: If - IF - they can produce a similar product at a reduced cost, including the absurdity of the current add on costs that Elecraft charges, good for them! > > I also stated that I "hope they are successful - "successful" meaning their version offers like functions and specifications, at a reduced cost!" If, I repeat, IF those specifications include a Ps as far as the rig remaining operational over some lonnnnnng period of time - saaaaaaay, .95 or .98 or whatever "high value of reliability you want to instill on an Elecraft product," then I hope this Chinese company can turn out a product that's as reliable. > > Sheesh - I can see the "Elecraft faithful" are out in droves today! > > Cinching up my flameproof suit even tighter.....72, Jim R. K9JWV > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Rodenkirch
James,
The Elecraft KXPD3 is $129.95 as opposed to your "swag" of $170. Compare that price to other sets of precision paddles and I would believe you will find the price in inline with reality. Once you touch the KXPD3 I believe you would change your mind - it is sweet and smooth and quite comfortable to use. The KX3 is not the "low priced spread", but it offers features no other portable, handheld, QRP, small, transceiver has yet offered. It has most all the functions of the K3/10, but at a lower cost and a much more portable format. You pays your money and takes you pick -- beyond that, stop complaining, you are getting your money's worth.. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/13/2012 6:49 PM, James Rodenkirch wrote: > Elecraft follows the Apple model - or vice versa...who knows! Basic "product" is sorta "ok" from a costing perspective but one starts to "cringe" at $60.00 microphones and $170.00 20 watt antenna tuners and $170.00 iambic keys...just sorta seems high end pricing... I could go and price out external versions but that would detract from the Elecraft model - purchase the basic rig and toss in lots of extras that fit into the rig and keep you one of the "Elecraft faithful." > > Your statement, "Generally, the Chinese versions are reasonable value for money but the equation generally does include a much lower build quality and feature set and a much lower support level" is sorta intriguing....just what is a "lower build quality" and "feature set" and "lower support level" mean? > > Quote me some numbers and we can chat further....Jim R. > > > > From: [hidden email] > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:02:25 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [QRP-L] The Chinese KX3 > To: [hidden email] > CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email] > > Jim, > > > > What exactly is absurd about the add on costs that Elecraft charges, in your opinion ??? > > > That's the statement that sticks out to me as being absurd in your mail. You buy the accessories you want/need and add it up. The total KX3 price after doing that doesn't seem absurd to me. Not extremely cheap either, I'd agree, but most certainly not absurdly expensive. > > > There are Chinese knock-offs of many product categories. Generally, the Chinese versions are reasonable value for money but the equation generally does include a much lower build quality and feature set and a much lower support level. > > > To take the Wouxuns for example, they are great rigs for the price, but the more expensive ones from Yaewoodcom do have a definitive edge on quality and how well they are thought out. It's just questionable if they are worth paying so much extra for, and personally I'm happy with my Wouxun. But for something as primary to my ham operating as my main portable HF rig, I won't settle for such a compromise. > > > 73, Thomas M0TRN > > > On 13 April 2012 21:55, James Rodenkirch<[hidden email]> wrote: > > If - IF - they can produce a similar product at a reduced cost, including the absurdity of the current add on costs that Elecraft charges, good for them! > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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