The K3 in comprison to the Big Guns

[Nelson Moyer]

I've been following the 'big gun' thread with interest. I'm astonished that
this group seems to imply that 'big gun' status depends upon the radio you
own, rather than the amplifiers and antennas you use. Most rigs today put
out between 100-200 watts, regardless of price. DX'ing and contesting
success seems to me to be related to your amplifier and your antennas, not
your radio. The radio only comes into play on the low bands, where being
able to hear the weak ones through the noise becomes important.

All this begs the question, Who is a 'big gun'? Is it someone with a 5
figure radio, someone who breaks all the pile-ups with one call, someone who
wins all of the contests, someone who is on top of the Honor Roll and has
5BWAZ, or someone who has 160 acres of antenna farm with full wavelength
beverages every 22.5 degrees? Maybe it's all of the above, but I doubt it.

I'm a little pistol by most definitions, but I'm #1 Honor Roll, have 2507
band-entities toward the Challenge, and hold the WPX Award of Excellence
endorsed for 160, 30, 17, 12, and digital modes. I lack 8 entities on 160
for 9BDXCC, lack 6 zones for 5BWAZ. I've been DX'ing since 1981, and I use
an FT-100 (FT-707 before that), 600 watts of amplifier power, a TH-11 at 48
ft. (since 1996, a HF6V before that), a side mounted 5 element yagi on 6
meters, and a HF2V with 30 meter coil. I have a flag, mag loop, and low 80
meter dipole to help me hear better on 160. My entire antenna farm is
crammed into a back yard in town that measures 60x70 ft.

So why did I order a K3? Because I can't hear the DX very well on 80 and
160, and I'm betting that the K3 will enable me to improve my low band
Challenge score and finish 5BWAZ from my sub-optimal location. Besides, I'm
retiring, and it's time for my dream radio.

Maybe 'big gun' is more about what you do than what you have, but I'm really
looking forward to my K3.

Nelson, KU0A

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[N5GE]

On Thu, 15 May 2008 21:06:15 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>That's it, I'm going to ask the silly question.
>
>How can the K3's receiver outperform that of the Icom IC-7800 and Yaesu
>FTDX9000? These two radios cost in excess of $11,000 and weigh in at over
>25Kg (55lbs)! The K3 costs about $2000 and weighs about 4Kg (8.5lbs). Yes
>the K3 is deficient of a screen, internal PSU and some knobs but why on
>earth is there such a difference in price and weight? Given this, how can
>the K3's receiver outperform these other radios?
>
>These questions keep bugging me. Those glossy Yaesu and Icom brochures
>certainly don't help!

Yaesu and ICOM sell radios by the lb instead of by quality?  If I combine the
weight of my K3 and the Non-switching 100 amp power supply it's hooked up to, it
adds up to more than either of the other rigs ;o)


Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

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Liberty nor Safety"

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just the parts you like.

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[k6xt]

The experts will weigh in better than I. One can buy an Escalade or one
can buy a Tahoe. The Escalade has more bells and whistles, but doesn't
drive better or haul more than a Tahoe.

The 7800/FTdx9000 have something for everyone. A knob for every function
(or nearly). What they also have is an upconversion receiver, which is
where the difference in receiver performance begins. It is not yet
possible to make narrowband multipole filters at VHF that are as good as
narrowband multipole filters at the K3 8MHz first IF, that the amateur
community wants to afford. That is why the narrowest 7800 first IF
filter is (if memory serves) 3KHz. So the K3 starts out with a huge
filter advantage because its first IF filter can go to whatever is
available, like 250Hz. (I avoid the term 'roofing filter' to honor
Wayne's preferences.)

The remainder of the K3 receiver front end advantage, i.e. inside the
1st IF filter specs, is the result of what Wayne wants in a radio. He's
been designing stout front ends as long as I've known him coming up on
20 years. The competition makes their design compromises in accordance
with objectives, cost effectiveness (i.e. good enough for who its for)
etc. while the K3 design seems to lean toward no compromise in
performance. I note that the 7800 first appeared with something like a
6KHz first IF filter, got hammered in the press, eham etc. for lousy
close-in performance, and quickly added a 3KHz 1st IF filter option.
Some of the K3 front end specs are up there near the very top line
spectrum and network analyzers from industry luminaries like
Rohde-Schwarz, Agilent etc. which cost $50,000 to start (that's like the
base K3), running up towards a quarter million with decent options.

Not to say the very expensive radios are not good. They are, and they
fit well in the livingroom entertainment system as well. Whereas the
K3's appearance is more attuned to 'the shack' or the backpack, a
utilitarian tool. Let's not forget Wayne is first and foremost a QRP
backpacker. The 10 watt K3 version is surely the very highest
performance rig serving the portable market, and fortunately the
DX/contest market as well. Plus one can buy 3 or 4 K3's for the price of
a livingroom appliance (lest I get hammered on the appliance remark, I
happily owned a IC781 for many years).

I do hope I haven't said something stupid here. If so, it's all my fault.

73 Art

Snip
Shane wrote:

> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shane White <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] The K3 in comprison to the Big Guns
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> That's it, I'm going to ask the silly question.
>
> How can the K3's receiver outperform that of the Icom IC-7800 and Yaesu
> FTDX9000? These two radios cost in excess of $11,000 and weigh in at over
> 25Kg (55lbs)! The K3 costs about $2000 and weighs about 4Kg (8.5lbs). Yes
> the K3 is deficient of a screen, internal PSU and some knobs but why on
> earth is there such a difference in price and weight? Given this, how can
> the K3's receiver outperform these other radios?
>
> These questions keep bugging me. Those glossy Yaesu and Icom brochures
> certainly don't help!

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[M0XDF]

same here, I was going for the FT-2000 before the K3 announcement -  
that changed a lot of things, including having the space to put it on  
my desk
--
If you must play, decide on three things at the start: the rules of the
game, the stakes, and the quitting time. -Chinese Proverb

On 16 May 2008, at 13:54, G4ILO wrote:

> Perhaps not, but a lot of people don't have the luxury of large  
> rooms to
> operate in. With the box room I have to use, I wouldn't have the  
> space for
> an IC-7400 even if I could afford one (or manage to carry it up the  
> stairs
> without hospitalizing myself with a back injury!) The K3 is just about
> perfect for my situation.

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[NZ0T]

Japanese rigs remind me of Japanese cars.  Well built products with a lot of fluff type features and gizmos that don't contribute to the actual performance of the car.  

That's why I'll take my BMW and K2 (K3 in about 3 months or sooner I hope) over IcomYaseuKenwood or AccuraInfinityEtc.

Japanese rigs have their place and I have a 706 in the car and a 718 at the lake but for serious HF work Elecraft is my choice.

73,

Bill NZ0T
 

[Darwin, Keith]

For me the cars analogy doesn't do it.  I have a Honda and it is not a
rig with a lot of "fluff".

I think about in terms of car stereos.  Kenwood makes car stereo
systems.  Lots of flash & buttons and whiz bang features.  Oh yea, it
produces sound too but that isn't really the thing they focus on.

I see the Ikensu rigs coming out of the same mindset.  Micro knobs,
fancy displays, lots of add-ons, lacking is core performance.  They are
the radio equivalent of Junk Food - all flash, no substance.  Well,
maybe that's an over statement, but you get the idea.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----

Japanese rigs remind me of Japanese cars.  Well built products with a
lot of fluff type features and gizmos that don't contribute to the
actual performance of the car.  

Bill NZ0T
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[KK7P]

Four years ago I bought a new Prius.  Small, but big enough.  A good
neighbor in terms of the environment.  Efficient.  Similar enough to
other cars, but quietly makes a statement.  Lots of modern technology
carefully applied, but not in my face.  Plenty of options to tailor the
vehicle to my needs.

Some of its features are not what I was accustomed to in a vehicle, and
some things I was used to doing one way I learned to do differently to
get the desired result.

I think of my K3 in a similar light.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[k6xt]

Bill
You got me. I never read your reference, going strictly by the
advertisements. I don't own a 7800, likely never will, so its actual vs
advertised performance, and that of all the other recent offshore boxes,
shall remain a mystery. Also if I recall back then ARRL made 5KHz close
in measurements giving manufacturers the opportunity to design for and
look good in 5KHz spacing reviews. Meanwhile Sherwood et al were
measuring down to 2KHz and below which made the design compromises (read
"faults" to us low band dxers) painfully obvious, backing up what we
were hearing - or not - on the air.

73 Art

Message: 51
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 12:26:48 -0400
From: Bill Tippett <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] The K3 in comparison to the Big Guns


K6XT wrote:

  >I note that the 7800 first appeared with something like a
6KHz first IF filter, got hammered in the press, eham etc. for lousy
close-in performance, and quickly added a 3KHz 1st IF filter option.

          Bzzzt...you forgot Icom's advertising formula!
Their 6 kHz filter is actually 11+ kHz and their 3 kHz
is actually 5+ kHz (per Sherwood's measurements below).

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Elecraft_K3/message/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ic7800/message/3532>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ic7800/message/3532

Question:  When can an 11+ kHz BW filter be called a 6 kHz filter?
Answer:  When Icom says so in their advertising.  <wink-wink>

Caveat emptor!

73, Bill W4ZV
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[Gary, W7TEA]

What held me back from completing my K3 order was the small  
front panel.  I played with one in Aptos and decided that while I'd much prefer
a larger panel with more space between the knobs, the K3 would work.  
I've most recently owned an Orion, an Omni VI+ and an Omni VII.  
I tend to like big. Hope the K3 arrives next month.

Gary W7TEA

<quote author="Simon Brown (HB9DRV)">
IC-7800 height or even a tad more. I'm not a fan of making radios as small
as possible.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

[w7aqk]

I had a chance to get a pretty good look at the Icom 7700 at Dayton this
year.  Also, a friend of mine who has one (and also has a K3) gave me a
pretty good demo of the 7700's features.  I must say, the 7700 is
impressive.  Big beautiful display, and lots of very interesting bells and
whistles.  It's not hard to see why many folks gravitate towards a radio
like this.  Interestingly, when I asked the Icom reps there what, besides
only having one RX, was the difference between the 7700 and the 7800, they
universally responded "not much"!  I haven't studied the 7700's performance
ratings, but apparently they are not nearly as good as the K3.  But there
are numerous features on the 7700 that will really tempt you--much of them
are associated with that nice, big display.  It was easy to see the
advantage the 7700 has over most Yaesu radios--much simpler menu access,
etc.  Clearly the K3 can't fill everyone's want list, but I'm still pretty
happy with my choice.  A 7700 (or maybe even a 7800) might be nice to have,
but I still think my K3 does 95% of what I really want and need.  And I love
the fact that I can just pick my K3 up and move it around with ease.  You
won't be doing that with the 7700!  It's really apples and oranges, and each
rig has advantages as well as gaps.  But I think from a purely performance
standpoint, you just can't get much better than the K3.  There are plenty of
nice extras on the K3 to remind you that it isn't just another ordinary
radio.  But picking one over the other will be a real dilemma for some
folks.  The only way to solve that problem is to get both, like my friend
did!

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Serwy" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Shane White'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 1:09 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The K3 in comprison to the Big Guns

> Maybe you need to ask Icom and Yaesu why they charge so much for their
> rigs.
>
>
> Bob Serwy - N9RS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Shane White
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:06 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] The K3 in comprison to the Big Guns
>
>
> That's it, I'm going to ask the silly question.
>
> How can the K3's receiver outperform that of the Icom IC-7800 and Yaesu
> FTDX9000? These two radios cost in excess of $11,000 and weigh in at over
> 25Kg (55lbs)! The K3 costs about $2000 and weighs about 4Kg (8.5lbs). Yes
> the K3 is deficient of a screen, internal PSU and some knobs but why on
> earth is there such a difference in price and weight? Given this, how can
> the K3's receiver outperform these other radios?
>
> These questions keep bugging me. Those glossy Yaesu and Icom brochures
> certainly don't help!
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-K3-in-comprison-to-the-Big-Guns-tp17267266p1726726
> 6.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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>
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