Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

[callen1155]

Hello guys.

Narrowing down the options I 'need' in a K3.

Regarding an internal vs external ATU:

If you were going to operate your K3 at 100 watts (no plans for an amplifier), radio to be used only at home (no portable operating), and one of your antennas was a dipole that can be tuned over all bands with an ATU, would you opt for the K3 internal ATU or purchase an external one?

I see advantages both ways and am curious how most of you would decide on this.

Thanks for any advice.
chuck

[Craig Smith]

As usual, it depends.  In this case it depends upon the feedline losses on
your "all band dipole."

If it is something like a G5RV doublet fed with ladderline with low feedline
losses, then the internal tuner will work fine.  If it is fed with coax of
any appreciable length, then the external tuner is much to be preferred.

I have both the K3 internal tuner and an external remote tuner here.  I use
the internal tuner with my ladderline fed 102 ft doublet and bring the
ladderline to within 3 ft of the K3 before transitioning to RG-213 at a
current choke.  This works fine.  For my 80 thru 15 43 ft vertical I use a
CG-3000 remote tuner at the base since it is fed with coax.

I keep hoping that Elecraft will come out with a remote tuner!  One with a
balanced output option would be icing on the cake.  Are you listening, Aptos
??    Hint Hint  ;>)

 73   Craig  AC0DS



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[David Cutter]

I used my K3 with built in matching unit directly into a low (avg 10ft agl)
doublet of 88ft per leg (somewhat bent) and a short feeder directly into the
PL.   No rf earth, isolated mains supply.  Worked well across 160 to 10.  I
should have used a coax choke but it worked very well.  It has always been
tedious using an external manual tuner with other rigs.  It well justifies
the $ for instant band switching.

David
G3UNA

>
>
> Hello guys.
>
> Narrowing down the options I 'need' in a K3.
>
> Regarding an internal vs external ATU:
>
> If you were going to operate your K3 at 100 watts (no plans for an
> amplifier), radio to be used only at home (no portable operating), and one
> of your antennas was a dipole that can be tuned over all bands with an
> ATU,
> would you opt for the K3 internal ATU or purchase an external one?
>
> I see advantages both ways and am curious how most of you would decide on
> this.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
> chuck
> --  

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[Cookie]

I have used my internal tuner and K3 for a year and a half now.  I have yet to find an antenna that it will not tune.  I own several external tuners and I have never found a need for any of them except when I am using a high power amplifier.  The only reason that I can think of to use an external tune is if the antenna is located 500 feet away and you want the tuner at the antenna end of it.  Go for the internal tuner and don't look back.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: callen1155 <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 12:44:38 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3



Hello guys.

Narrowing down the options I 'need' in a K3.

Regarding an internal vs external ATU:

If you were going to operate your K3 at 100 watts (no plans for an
amplifier), radio to be used only at home (no portable operating), and one
of your antennas was a dipole that can be tuned over all bands with an ATU,
would you opt for the K3 internal ATU or purchase an external one?

I see advantages both ways and am curious how most of you would decide on
this.

Thanks for any advice.
chuck
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4627735.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[callen1155]

Thanks guys. You do make a strong case for the internal unit. My internal unit on my K2 (15 watts) works great.

My dipole is coax fed - U shaped, no balun, running thru attic and out eaves to back of yard. My shack is on the 2nd floor (no RF ground)

I've never used an external ATU and was thinking it would automatically pick up on a band change and adjust. However, it sounds like that's incorrect and the band change would have to be entered in both the radio and the tuner. I just started using Ham Radio Deluxe and that 'one click' band change is nice.

But one of the reasons I was considering the external unit was they provide a nice visual display of both the SWR and the output power level. So with the internal ATU do you guys use a separate SWR/Power meter (and I guess a dummy load would generally be included)?

thanks.
chuck

[Steve Ellington]

I'm afraid you have the wrong concept of the internal tuner. Every time you
change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button. It does have memories and
it's very quick and has a very wide range. In fact, the K3's tuner is the
best I've ever seen.
I also have the MFJ-998 auto tuner. 5 watts of RF is all that is needed to
activate the tuning process therefore the amount of manual intervention is
the same for either method of tuning. I just push the TUNE button on the K3
which sends a few watts to the MFJ and it tunes.
I've installed the MFJ tuner out at the antenna feedpoint now, 95 feet from
the shack. The antenna is a 130' inverted L. This would not work well with
the K3's internal tuner because I'm running RG-213 to the antenna. I'm able
to cover all bands plus I can run the amplifier if needed.
External auto tuners do allow greater flexibility and configuration options.
Keep that in mind if money is a factor. Otherwise, buy both!

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

>
>
> Thanks guys. You do make a strong case for the internal unit. My internal
> unit on my K2 (15 watts) works great.
>
> My dipole is coax fed - U shaped, no balun, running thru attic and out
> eaves
> to back of yard. My shack is on the 2nd floor (no RF ground)
>
> I've never used an external ATU and was thinking it would automatically
> pick
> up on a band change and adjust. However, it sounds like that's incorrect
> and
> the band change would have to be entered in both the radio and the tuner.
> I
> just started using Ham Radio Deluxe and that 'one click' band change is
> nice.
>
> But one of the reasons I was considering the external unit was they
> provide
> a nice visual display of both the SWR and the output power level. So with
> the internal ATU do you guys use a separate SWR/Power meter (and I guess a
> dummy load would generally be included)?
>
> thanks.
> chuck
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4628064.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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02:34:00

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[Bob - W0GI]

Most internal tuners, like my FT-920 and Mark-V FT-1000MP, have very limited range, but the K3 tuner has a wide range, and is very fast. Well worth the money.

[callen1155]

Steve,

You stated " Every time you change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button."  

If that's true then I have been operating my K2 ATU incorrectly but it seems to work fine the way I've been doing it. Initially, or after any change, I run thru the bands tuned to the cw portion and hit the ATU Tune button to obtain close to a 1 to 1 swr. Once that's done I was under the impression that the internal memory kept that setting stored and I didn't need to re-tune (i.e. repress the ATU Tune button) until a change was made to the system. I may go for several weeks without any changes.

So do you really need to re-tune EVERYTIME you change bands?

thanks.
chuck
 

[Peter Wollan-2]

This isn't true, is it?  It's certainly not the case for the K1 or K2
tuners, and I can't believe that the K3 is less capable.

        Peter N8MHD


On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm afraid you have the wrong concept of the internal tuner. Every time you
> change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button.
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[Ignacy]

It depends on whether the antenna is badly out of balance and whether it is low or high impedance.

With coax based antenna and when the balun is not required, KAT3 is very convenient. When one uses unbalanced high SWR antennas fed by ladderline or TV line, one needs an efficient current balun. For high impedance antennas, some baluns including BL2 have very high losses. In fact, KAT3 can match BL2 without any antenna; the toroid gets hot fast.

With an outside tuner, a jumper of RG174 between K3 and a tuner looped a few times on a toroid makes a very effective low loss balun.  

Ignacy, NO9E

[Cookie]

You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the load changes.  It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three seconds to tune again.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: callen1155 <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 2:12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3



Steve,

You stated " Every time you change bands, you must push the ATU Tune
button." 

If that's true then I have been operating my K2 ATU incorrectly but it seems
to work fine the way I've been doing it. Initially, or after any change, I
run thru the bands tuned to the cw portion and hit the ATU Tune button to
obtain close to a 1 to 1 swr. Once that's done I was under the impression
that the internal memory kept that setting stored and I didn't need to
re-tune (i.e. repress the ATU Tune button) until a change was made to the
system. I may go for several weeks without any changes.

So do you really need to re-tune EVERYTIME you change bands?

thanks.
chuck

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4628261.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Richard Ferch]

You do *not* have to push the ATU button every time you change bands.
See the firmware release notes for MCU 3.03.

The ATU remembers the last setting used on each band/antenna input; in
fact, it remembers the setting for every 20 kHz segment (every 10 kHz
segment on 160m, every 50 kHz segment on 10m and every 200 kHz segment
on 6m).

If you use an external antenna switch, then you may have to push the ATU
button every time you switch antennas on a given band.

One other thing the KAT3 gives you, by the way, is two antenna inputs,
switchable on the radio, and remembered on a per-band basis.

73,
Rich VE3KI

N8MHD wrote:

> This isn't true, is it?  It's certainly not the case for the K1 or K2
> tuners, and I can't believe that the K3 is less capable.
>
>         Peter N8MHD
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm afraid you have the wrong concept of the internal tuner. Every time you
>> change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button.
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[Cookie]

Chuck, I do use an external meter because I use it to tune my vintage amplifier.  If you are operating bare foot, you do not need it.  The meter in the K3 is totally adequate to tell you what is going on.  I was a Controls Engineer before I retired and we had a saying "One meter and you have a measurement, two or more meters and you have an argument."  Of course, if you are a nut case like me and like to see the D'arsonval needle bounce, go ahead and put the external meter in.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: callen1155 <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 1:40:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3



Thanks guys. You do make a strong case for the internal unit. My internal
unit on my K2 (15 watts) works great.

My dipole is coax fed - U shaped, no balun, running thru attic and out eaves
to back of yard. My shack is on the 2nd floor (no RF ground)

I've never used an external ATU and was thinking it would automatically pick
up on a band change and adjust. However, it sounds like that's incorrect and
the band change would have to be entered in both the radio and the tuner. I
just started using Ham Radio Deluxe and that 'one click' band change is
nice.

But one of the reasons I was considering the external unit was they provide
a nice visual display of both the SWR and the output power level. So with
the internal ATU do you guys use a separate SWR/Power meter (and I guess a
dummy load would generally be included)?

thanks.
chuck

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4628064.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[callen1155]

Still confused guys on the Re-Tune issue. So on my coax fed dipole, if I press ATU TUNE at 7.030, wouldn't that be enough to tune the 7.000 thru 7.060 freq range without retuning whenever I 'band switch' back to 40 meters and operate in the above cw range?

chuck

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Cookie and all,

That is *not* true for the KAT3 (it was for the KAT2 and KAT100).
Look on page 22 of the new owners manual.  The K3 saves up to 30 ATU
setting for both antennas on every band.

However, if you have not yet done so, you will have to do a TUNE at
several frequencies throughout the band so the settings are recorded.  
If you change the antenna that is connected to either ANT1 or ANT2, you
have to do that all over again - but once tuned, the settings for that
band portion will be retained.
Let's see -- 30 settings on a wide band like 80 meters (500 kHz wide),
that means  you can have a different setting for every 16.67 kHz segment
of 80 meters.  That should handle even the most narrowband antennas.  
Similarly 10 meters is 1.7 MHz wide, so the KAT3 can remember a unique
setting every 56.67 kHz, and on 6 meters (4 MHz wide), every 133.33
kHz.  Not too bad.  The band segment boundaries may not be on exactly
the intervals that I have stated - I simply divided the width of the
band by 30 to get a general idea of the spacing, but in any case it
should be quite adequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the load changes.  It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three seconds to tune again.
>  Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>  
>
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[Steve Ellington]

The K3 tuner does store it's settings in memory but you must transmit in
order to get the tuner to change to your frequency. Let's say you're on 80m,
all tuned up and hop to 40 meters. If you don't transmit and your reception
may be rather weak because the tuner is peaked for 80 meters. I usually hit
the ATU tune button and let the tuner switch to it's memory settings. I do
this instead of hitting the key and transmitting a full 100 watts. Maybe not
necessary but seems like it might be easier on the finals.
So yes....you need to transmit somehow to make the ATU change. It doesn't
follow along as you spin the dial like ICOMs do.
Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Ferch" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

> You do *not* have to push the ATU button every time you change bands.
> See the firmware release notes for MCU 3.03.
>
> The ATU remembers the last setting used on each band/antenna input; in
> fact, it remembers the setting for every 20 kHz segment (every 10 kHz
> segment on 160m, every 50 kHz segment on 10m and every 200 kHz segment
> on 6m).
>
> If you use an external antenna switch, then you may have to push the ATU
> button every time you switch antennas on a given band.
>
> One other thing the KAT3 gives you, by the way, is two antenna inputs,
> switchable on the radio, and remembered on a per-band basis.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
> N8MHD wrote:
>
>> This isn't true, is it?  It's certainly not the case for the K1 or K2
>> tuners, and I can't believe that the K3 is less capable.
>>
>>         Peter N8MHD
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm afraid you have the wrong concept of the internal tuner. Every time
>>> you
>>> change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2707 - Release Date: 02/24/10
02:34:00

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Chuck,

The short answer is YES.
The longer answer is if you move far enough away from the original
frequency where the antenna was tuned,. and the SWR increases, just do
another TUNE and that will be remembered for  that band segment too.

I believe you also asked about an external wattmeter - that is not
required at all, the indicators on the K3 display will tell you what is
going on.
If you do use an external wattmeter, be aware that you cannot insert it
between the K3 PA and the KAT3.  That is the only place that the SWR
will change (BTW, that is the place that is monitored for power and SWR
by the K3 itself and indicated on the display).
An external wattmeter in your antenna line after the tuner will show an
unchanging SWR - whatever SWR the coax is running at and that will not
change with tuning the KAT3.  While that may be informative, it is not
important for the K3 operation.

73,
Don W3FPR

callen1155 wrote:

> Still confused guys on the Re-Tune issue. So on my coax fed dipole, if I
> press ATU TUNE at 7.030, wouldn't that be enough to tune the 7.000 thru
> 7.060 freq range without retuning whenever I 'band switch' back to 40 meters
> and operate in the above cw range?
>
> chuck
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2707 - Release Date: 02/24/10 02:34:00
>
>  

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[Cookie]

I do have a KAT3 and have never owned a KAT2 or KAT100.  My owners manual is the one that came with the K3 in June of 2008.  It does not say anything except pushing the ATU Tune button.  What you say is news to me!
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:09:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Cookie and all,

That is *not* true for the KAT3 (it was for the KAT2 and KAT100).
Look on page 22 of the new owners manual.  The K3 saves up to 30 ATU setting for both antennas on every band.

However, if you have not yet done so, you will have to do a TUNE at several frequencies throughout the band so the settings are recorded.  If you change the antenna that is connected to either ANT1 or ANT2, you have to do that all over again - but once tuned, the settings for that band portion will be retained.
Let's see -- 30 settings on a wide band like 80 meters (500 kHz wide), that means  you can have a different setting for every 16.67 kHz segment of 80 meters.  That should handle even the most narrowband antennas.  Similarly 10 meters is 1.7 MHz wide, so the KAT3 can remember a unique setting every 56.67 kHz, and on 6 meters (4 MHz wide), every 133.33 kHz.  Not too bad.  The band segment boundaries may not be on exactly the intervals that I have stated - I simply divided the width of the band by 30 to get a general idea of the spacing, but in any case it should be quite adequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the load changes.  It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three seconds to tune again.
>  Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ 



     
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Steve,

That is not necessary.  The KAT3 remembers the settings on each band, so
one can bandswitch from one band to another without need to re-tune.
Exception - if you have changed antennas for the new band since the time
you did a TUNE on that band, then yes, you will have to re-tune.
For those running with multi-band antennas (resonant or not), this is a
huge time savings when switching bands - if that antenna was tuned on
that band before, just hit the bandswitch and operate, no need to do a tune.

If you operate with a multiband antenna, take some time and TUNE the
KAT3 at several places on each band - after that, no TUNE required, just
change bands.

73,
Don W3FPR

Steve Ellington wrote:

> The K3 tuner does store it's settings in memory but you must transmit in
> order to get the tuner to change to your frequency. Let's say you're on 80m,
> all tuned up and hop to 40 meters. If you don't transmit and your reception
> may be rather weak because the tuner is peaked for 80 meters. I usually hit
> the ATU tune button and let the tuner switch to it's memory settings. I do
> this instead of hitting the key and transmitting a full 100 watts. Maybe not
> necessary but seems like it might be easier on the finals.
> So yes....you need to transmit somehow to make the ATU change. It doesn't
> follow along as you spin the dial like ICOMs do.
> Steve
> N4LQ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Ferch" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3
>
>
>  
>> You do *not* have to push the ATU button every time you change bands.
>> See the firmware release notes for MCU 3.03.
>>
>> The ATU remembers the last setting used on each band/antenna input; in
>> fact, it remembers the setting for every 20 kHz segment (every 10 kHz
>> segment on 160m, every 50 kHz segment on 10m and every 200 kHz segment
>> on 6m).
>>
>> If you use an external antenna switch, then you may have to push the ATU
>> button every time you switch antennas on a given band.
>>
>> One other thing the KAT3 gives you, by the way, is two antenna inputs,
>> switchable on the radio, and remembered on a per-band basis.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>> N8MHD wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> This isn't true, is it?  It's certainly not the case for the K1 or K2
>>> tuners, and I can't believe that the K3 is less capable.
>>>
>>>         Peter N8MHD
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>      
>>>> I'm afraid you have the wrong concept of the internal tuner. Every time
>>>> you
>>>> change bands, you must push the ATU Tune button.
>>>>        
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>
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Cookie,

Download the latest manual from the Elecraft website - that is where I
found that info.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> I do have a KAT3 and have never owned a KAT2 or KAT100.  My owners manual is the one that came with the K3 in June of 2008.  It does not say anything except pushing the ATU Tune button.  What you say is news to me!
>  Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>  
>
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