Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

[Cookie]

Well, I switched my 160 inverted L to 15 meters and tried it.  The first pass through the SWR would jump about every 20 khz and I would need to retune, the second pass the SWR stated low as advertised.  After a year and a half and 7,000 plus Qs I still learn something new about the K3 pretty often.  I guess most of the time I tune my SteppIR and when I am on 80 and 160 I usually am using an amp, so I never noticed.  Now it it would self initiate the tuning at about 1.5 SWR it would have it all!  That all said, the only thing left is K3, great rig, KAT3, great tuner, if you don't own one, sell your Kaycom and get one!
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:29:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

I do have a KAT3 and have never owned a KAT2 or KAT100.  My owners manual is the one that came with the K3 in June of 2008.  It does not say anything except pushing the ATU Tune button.  What you say is news to me!
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:09:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Cookie and all,

That is *not* true for the KAT3 (it was for the KAT2 and KAT100).
Look on page 22 of the new owners manual.  The K3 saves up to 30 ATU setting for both antennas on every band.

However, if you have not yet done so, you will have to do a TUNE at several frequencies throughout the band so the settings are recorded.  If you change the antenna that is connected to either ANT1 or ANT2, you have to do that all over again - but once tuned, the settings for that band portion will be retained.
Let's see -- 30 settings on a wide band like 80 meters (500 kHz wide), that means  you can have a different setting for every 16.67 kHz segment of 80 meters.  That should handle even the most narrowband antennas.  Similarly 10 meters is 1.7 MHz wide, so the KAT3 can remember a unique setting every 56.67 kHz, and on 6 meters (4 MHz wide), every 133.33 kHz.  Not too bad.  The band segment boundaries may not be on exactly the intervals that I have stated - I simply divided the width of the band by 30 to get a general idea of the spacing, but in any case it should be quite adequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the load changes.  It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three seconds to tune again.
>  Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ 



     
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[Don Ehrlich]

Amen to that!  And it gets *all* of the RF out of the shack as well.  I
recently moved my fully balanced homebrew kilowatt autotuner out to my
garden shed about a hundred feet from the shack where it feeds the
ladderline going up to my 160M horz loop.  I have been fighting
RF-in-the-shack problems for years ... what a relief !

Don K7FJ


> External auto tuners do allow greater flexibility and configuration
> options.
> Keep that in mind if money is a factor. Otherwise, buy both!
>
> Steve
> N4LQ

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[Rick Dettinger-3]

Hello Chuck,

  That is my situation, and I opted for an external tuner.  I did that  
to avoid the loses that I would get from using 140 feet of buried coax  
to my dipole.  My antenna tuner is located at the other end of my  
coax, so my loses are minimized.  This involves using a remote,  
weather proof tuner.  I use an SGC model SG-230 remote tuner (coupler,  
according to SGC) and a multi conductor rotor cable for power and  
control.  The tuner is housed in a wooden box mounted on a 4"x 6"  
post.  The coax and rotor cable run through a buried  2" schedule 40  
conduit.  I have since changed the dipole for a 176 foot  inverted "L"  
antenna worked against ground radials.  I intend to add a 20 foot  
vertical for the higher frequencies, and an RF switch, also controlled  
with the rotor cable.  The SGC tuner has worked well and I am happy  
with the system.  I just think the 55 foot high inverted "L" is not  
optimum for 20 meters and above, thus the 20 foot vertical.  When I  
had the multi band dipole (doublet) I used 400 ohm window line from  
the tuner to the antenna.  This worked well, but I wanted to eliminate  
the window line.  I think the inverted "L" works as well and is  
bothered less by heavy winds.

73,

Rick Dettinger   K7MW


On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:44 AM, callen1155 wrote:

>
>
> Hello guys.
>
> Narrowing down the options I 'need' in a K3.
>
> Regarding an internal vs external ATU:
>
> If you were going to operate your K3 at 100 watts (no plans for an
> amplifier), radio to be used only at home (no portable operating),  
> and one
> of your antennas was a dipole that can be tuned over all bands with  
> an ATU,
> would you opt for the K3 internal ATU or purchase an external one?
>
> I see advantages both ways and am curious how most of you would  
> decide on
> this.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
> chuck
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4627735.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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[callen1155]

Thanks guys for all the info.

I have one other question about the ATU use with two antennas.

Say I have two antennas connected to the ATU , one is a dipole (non resonant- need the ATU to 'match') and the other antenna is a Hustler BTV6 (which i've just purchase having never used a vertical) which is supposedly resonant across all it's operating bands. So, i assume I don't really need to use the ATU 'tune/match' functionality for the Hustler (it's just providing the connector).

So can i have the ATU 'activated' for the dipole antenna (antenna A) but non-activated for the hustler (ant B)?  Question would apply to both the K3 and K2 ATU's.

Thanks so much for all the help.
chuck

[Cookie]

I have not tried that, but you can certainly push and hold the ATU Tune button and bypass the tuner whenever you like.  If you have two antennas connected you can change antennas with the ANT button.  Whether it would remember and change automatically I don't know and I would have to change some wiring to find out.  One thing that we have not mentioned is that the second SO239 and the relay to switch between two antennas is part of the KAT3, so if you want to have two antennas you need it.  The points people are making about the tuner at the antenna are certainly valid in many circumstances, but unless you are really hard pressed for funds there is no down side for having the KAT3 installed.  I am pondering buying one to install in my TS-440 for mobile.  I bought a MFJ-927 to use mobile, but I have not been able to make it work.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: callen1155 <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 5:13:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3


Thanks guys for all the info.

I have one other question about the ATU use with two antennas.

Say I have two antennas connected to the ATU , one is a dipole (non
resonant- need the ATU to 'match') and the other antenna is a Hustler BTV6
(which i've just purchase having never used a vertical) which is supposedly
resonant across all it's operating bands. So, i assume I don't really need
to use the ATU 'tune/match' functionality for the Hustler (it's just
providing the connector).

So can i have the ATU 'activated' for the dipole antenna (antenna A) but
non-activated for the hustler (ant B)?  Question would apply to both the K3
and K2 ATU's.

Thanks so much for all the help.
chuck
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-internal-vs-external-ATU-for-K3-tp4627735p4629233.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Chuck,

While you cannot have one antenna set to bypass and the other one for
tuning - there is an easy way to accomplish that.
Since the K2 and K3 tuners remember the settings for each antenna jack
separately, just pre-tune the one you will not use for tuning into a 50
ohm dummy load.  Then when you select that antenna, the tuner is
effectively bypassed.

In practice, not all antennas are well matched on all bands - and that
is particularly true of electrically short antennas, so you would likely
want tuning on both antennas anyway.

73,
Don W3FPR

callen1155 wrote:

> Thanks guys for all the info.
>
> I have one other question about the ATU use with two antennas.
>
> Say I have two antennas connected to the ATU , one is a dipole (non
> resonant- need the ATU to 'match') and the other antenna is a Hustler BTV6
> (which i've just purchase having never used a vertical) which is supposedly
> resonant across all it's operating bands. So, i assume I don't really need
> to use the ATU 'tune/match' functionality for the Hustler (it's just
> providing the connector).
>
> So can i have the ATU 'activated' for the dipole antenna (antenna A) but
> non-activated for the hustler (ant B)?  Question would apply to both the K3
> and K2 ATU's.
>  
>

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[John Frerichs]

I'll weigh in on this one, too, since I'm considering this option quite seriously.
 
With my home-only station running QRP CW I use a nice 100+ Watt external tuner (even for QRP).  It has the obligatory cable connected between it and the radio plus a grounding cable plus a power cable and either sits beside or on top.  It is convenient in that it will initiate tuning when I press the "Tune" button on the radio, but it just looks messy to have an external unit attached to the radio, to the power supply and to the ground buss.  I hate it!  I want an internal tuner for no other reason than to keep my station neat and simple.  Removing the clutter and other points of possible failures from the coax jumper, power cable and grounding cable is a huge bonus in my opinion!
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[Steve Ellington]

Cookie
Now switch back to 160m. Don't touch anything. Is your receive level ok? Now
transmit....Did receive level improve? Did the tuner go back to it's 160m
setting WITHOUT transmitting at all? Just curious.

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
To: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Cc: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3


Well, I switched my 160 inverted L to 15 meters and tried it. The first pass
through the SWR would jump about every 20 khz and I would need to retune,
the second pass the SWR stated low as advertised. After a year and a half
and 7,000 plus Qs I still learn something new about the K3 pretty often. I
guess most of the time I tune my SteppIR and when I am on 80 and 160 I
usually am using an amp, so I never noticed. Now it it would self initiate
the tuning at about 1.5 SWR it would have it all! That all said, the only
thing left is K3, great rig, KAT3, great tuner, if you don't own one, sell
your Kaycom and get one!
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:29:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

I do have a KAT3 and have never owned a KAT2 or KAT100. My owners manual is
the one that came with the K3 in June of 2008. It does not say anything
except pushing the ATU Tune button. What you say is news to me!
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:09:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Cookie and all,

That is *not* true for the KAT3 (it was for the KAT2 and KAT100).
Look on page 22 of the new owners manual. The K3 saves up to 30 ATU setting
for both antennas on every band.

However, if you have not yet done so, you will have to do a TUNE at several
frequencies throughout the band so the settings are recorded. If you change
the antenna that is connected to either ANT1 or ANT2, you have to do that
all over again - but once tuned, the settings for that band portion will be
retained.
Let's see -- 30 settings on a wide band like 80 meters (500 kHz wide), that
means you can have a different setting for every 16.67 kHz segment of 80
meters. That should handle even the most narrowband antennas. Similarly 10
meters is 1.7 MHz wide, so the KAT3 can remember a unique setting every
56.67 kHz, and on 6 meters (4 MHz wide), every 133.33 kHz. Not too bad. The
band segment boundaries may not be on exactly the intervals that I have
stated - I simply divided the width of the band by 30 to get a general idea
of the spacing, but in any case it should be quite adequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on
> the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the
> load changes. It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies
> within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three
> seconds to tune again.
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ




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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2707 - Release Date: 02/24/10
02:34:00

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[Cookie]

That would not be a meaningful test for me Steve.  When I use the tuner on 160 meters I use it to match the input to my amplifier and I do not use a tuner between the amp and the inverted L.  The SWR is 3/1 or less and the tube type amp handles that fine.  The impedence of the input to the amp if dependent on the Tune and Load settings more than anything else that varies.  I seldom use the KAT3 to tune an antenna as I run the L with an 80 meter trap on 80 the same way that I do on 160.  On 40 thru 6 I use the SteppIR beam and it tunes to frequency with its own micro processor controller.  I really can't tell any difference in the receive level between the KAT3 and Bypass.  I did use the L as an all band antenna for three months after Ike broke my SteppIR, but it never occurred to me that the KAT3 had the memory so I just punched the button when the SWR got high and didn't give it any thought. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 5:59:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Cookie
Now switch back to 160m. Don't touch anything. Is your receive level ok? Now transmit....Did receive level improve? Did the tuner go back to it's 160m setting WITHOUT transmitting at all? Just curious.

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message ----- From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
To: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Cc: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3


Well, I switched my 160 inverted L to 15 meters and tried it. The first pass through the SWR would jump about every 20 khz and I would need to retune, the second pass the SWR stated low as advertised. After a year and a half and 7,000 plus Qs I still learn something new about the K3 pretty often. I guess most of the time I tune my SteppIR and when I am on 80 and 160 I usually am using an amp, so I never noticed. Now it it would self initiate the tuning at about 1.5 SWR it would have it all! That all said, the only thing left is K3, great rig, KAT3, great tuner, if you don't own one, sell your Kaycom and get one!
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:29:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

I do have a KAT3 and have never owned a KAT2 or KAT100. My owners manual is the one that came with the K3 in June of 2008. It does not say anything except pushing the ATU Tune button. What you say is news to me!
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:09:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Cookie and all,

That is *not* true for the KAT3 (it was for the KAT2 and KAT100).
Look on page 22 of the new owners manual. The K3 saves up to 30 ATU setting for both antennas on every band.

However, if you have not yet done so, you will have to do a TUNE at several frequencies throughout the band so the settings are recorded. If you change the antenna that is connected to either ANT1 or ANT2, you have to do that all over again - but once tuned, the settings for that band portion will be retained.
Let's see -- 30 settings on a wide band like 80 meters (500 kHz wide), that means you can have a different setting for every 16.67 kHz segment of 80 meters. That should handle even the most narrowband antennas. Similarly 10 meters is 1.7 MHz wide, so the KAT3 can remember a unique setting every 56.67 kHz, and on 6 meters (4 MHz wide), every 133.33 kHz. Not too bad. The band segment boundaries may not be on exactly the intervals that I have stated - I simply divided the width of the band by 30 to get a general idea of the spacing, but in any case it should be quite adequate.

73,
Don W3FPR

WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You don't have to if you go back to the same frequency, but if you were on the cw band and go back to the phone band you might, depending on if the load changes. It does not seem to remember the settings for frequencies within the band, but it is just the push of one button and two or three seconds to tune again.
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ




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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2707 - Release Date: 02/24/10 02:34:00


     
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[Rick Prather]

Have to disagree Don!

I have a ladder line fed doublet (with outside balun) attached to Ant 1 and an R7 on Ant 2.

I have Ant 1 set to use the ATU and Ant 2 Bypassed since I don't need the tuner for it.

When I switch between Ant 1 and 2 the ATU indicator comes on for 1 and off for 2.

Slick!

Rick
K6LE

On 2/24/2010, at 3:36 , Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> While you cannot have one antenna set to bypass and the other one for
> tuning - there is an easy way to accomplish that.
> Since the K2 and K3 tuners remember the settings for each antenna jack
> separately, just pre-tune the one you will not use for tuning into a 50
> ohm dummy load.  Then when you select that antenna, the tuner is
> effectively bypassed.
>
> In practice, not all antennas are well matched on all bands - and that
> is particularly true of electrically short antennas, so you would likely
> want tuning on both antennas anyway.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Rick,

OK, that may be possible with the KAT3, but it certainly is not possible
with the KAT2 or the KAT100.  I do not have a tuner in my K3 because I
have all resonant antennas - no tuner required, so I bow to your experience.

73,
Don W3FPR

K6LE wrote:

> Have to disagree Don!
>
> I have a ladder line fed doublet (with outside balun) attached to Ant 1 and an R7 on Ant 2.
>
> I have Ant 1 set to use the ATU and Ant 2 Bypassed since I don't need the tuner for it.
>
> When I switch between Ant 1 and 2 the ATU indicator comes on for 1 and off for 2.
>
> Slick!
>
> Rick
> K6LE
>
> On 2/24/2010, at 3:36 , Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>  
>

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[callen1155]

Thanks Don and Rick for all the help.

chuck


----- Original Message ----
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: K6LE <[hidden email]>
Cc: callen1155 <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 11:16:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Thoughts on internal vs external ATU for K3

Rick,

OK, that may be possible with the KAT3, but it certainly is not possible
with the KAT2 or the KAT100.  I do not have a tuner in my K3 because I
have all resonant antennas - no tuner required, so I bow to your experience.

73,
Don W3FPR

K6LE wrote:

> Have to disagree Don!
>
> I have a ladder line fed doublet (with outside balun) attached to Ant 1 and an R7 on Ant 2.
>
> I have Ant 1 set to use the ATU and Ant 2 Bypassed since I don't need the tuner for it.
>
> When I switch between Ant 1 and 2 the ATU indicator comes on for 1 and off for 2.
>
> Slick!
>
> Rick
> K6LE
>
> On 2/24/2010, at 3:36 , Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>  
>

     
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[callen1155]

Thanks guys for all the input.

I have a better understanding of the capabilities of each option.

73.
chuck
af4xk