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To zero beat or not to zero beat

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N4ZR

To zero beat or not to zero beat

Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the
K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station.
Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded
to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the case,
X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever percent)
effectively right on.

I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10
and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat note.
One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX cluster
convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.

Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm
perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most
spots, but thought I'd ask.

--

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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Nr4c

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

If I call you in a contest, you’ll prob hear me 13-29 Hz high/low. I “zero” beat to hear you best and set K3 XIT to 13/20 Hz offset. Hope you’ll hear me standout over the others who zero beat and all come back on same freq.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 4:44 PM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station. Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the case, X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever percent) effectively right on.
>
> I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10 and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat note. One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX cluster convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.
>
> Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most spots, but thought I'd ask.
>
> --
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

In reply to this post by N4ZR

I use the SPOT feature on my K3S to zero beat the carrier on WWV. This gets me to +/- 1Hz. If it is more I'm inclined to tweak the reference such that it is accurate.

As to posting spots, I usually post to the nearest 1 KHz. Thus from experience, I have little confidence in the display accuracy of other radios.

73
Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 3:44 PM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station. Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the case, X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever percent) effectively right on.
>
> I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10 and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat note. One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX cluster convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.
>
> Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most spots, but thought I'd ask.
>
> --
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Mike / W5JR

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

N1MM+ Logger, maybe others, have a feature that is selectable on/off (defaults to on) that randomizes the actual frequency used to populate their bandmap from incoming spots.

As another poster mentions, in a contest, DON’T ZEROBEAT if you haven’t got the absolute strongest signal. Much easier to be picked up if you’re 30-100 Hz off of zerobeat, preferably higher pitch. I likewise use the XIT. However, if you’re tuned off one way to have a higher pitch, the station you’re calling could be using the other sideband, and now you’re a lower pitch. Your signal good go unnoticed.

Operating as a Rover in the GQP each year, it’s amazing how many folks call us over and over zerobeat, 10 deep. New county, wash, rinse, repeat. I can see stations even a KHz away on the pan, out of the passband, calling me. They’ll get worked before the others spread out. Ground Hog Day.

tnx
Mike / W5JR / GQP N4N
Alpharetta GA

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:33 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I use the SPOT feature on my K3S to zero beat the carrier on WWV. This gets me to +/- 1Hz. If it is more I'm inclined to tweak the reference such that it is accurate.
>
> As to posting spots, I usually post to the nearest 1 KHz. Thus from experience, I have little confidence in the display accuracy of other radios.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 3:44 PM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station. Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the case, X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever percent) effectively right on.
>>
>> I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10 and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat note. One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX cluster convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.
>>
>> Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most spots, but thought I'd ask.
>>
>> --
>>
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
>> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
>> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
>> For spots, please use your favorite
>> "retail" DX cluster.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

And in a pileup the RX bandwidth is narrower. At 50 Hz BW any 12 to 15 Hz away aren't heard. Yes a higher frequency tone will appear louder.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Mike - W5JR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> N1MM+ Logger, maybe others, have a feature that is selectable on/off (defaults to on) that randomizes the actual frequency used to populate their bandmap from incoming spots.
>
> As another poster mentions, in a contest, DON’T ZEROBEAT if you haven’t got the absolute strongest signal. Much easier to be picked up if you’re 30-100 Hz off of zerobeat, preferably higher pitch. I likewise use the XIT. However, if you’re tuned off one way to have a higher pitch, the station you’re calling could be using the other sideband, and now you’re a lower pitch. Your signal good go unnoticed.
>
> Operating as a Rover in the GQP each year, it’s amazing how many folks call us over and over zerobeat, 10 deep. New county, wash, rinse, repeat. I can see stations even a KHz away on the pan, out of the passband, calling me. They’ll get worked before the others spread out. Ground Hog Day.
>
> tnx
> Mike / W5JR / GQP N4N
> Alpharetta GA
>
>
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:33 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I use the SPOT feature on my K3S to zero beat the carrier on WWV. This gets me to +/- 1Hz. If it is more I'm inclined to tweak the reference such that it is accurate.
>>
>> As to posting spots, I usually post to the nearest 1 KHz. Thus from experience, I have little confidence in the display accuracy of other radios.
>>
>> 73
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 3:44 PM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station. Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the case, X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever percent) effectively right on.
>>>
>>> I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10 and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat note. One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX cluster convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.
>>>
>>> Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most spots, but thought I'd ask.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
>>> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
>>> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
>>> For spots, please use your favorite
>>> "retail" DX cluster.
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

On 2/21/2019 4:04 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> And in a pileup the RX bandwidth is narrower. At 50 Hz BW any 12 to 15 Hz away aren't heard.

Not really, and for several reasons. First, many skilled CW ops use a
fairly wide bandwidth in a pileup so that they hear off-frequency
callers. Second, even at the 200 Hz IF setting and 250Hz roofing filter
I routinely use, the -6dB bandwidth is on the order of 250 Hz (it's
generally well known that the 250 Hz filter is closer to 350 Hz). Given
that 6 dB is roughly one S-unit, the practical RX bandwidth is more like
250 Hz for reasonably strong signals, and reasonably strong signals
farther off frequency are going to be heard. Third, in a pileup, the
WORST place to be is zero-beat, because that's where most stations call,
and everyone's TX blends into a big mush.

You DO want to zero-beat the CQer if you're weak and there are no other
callers.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

Most of my CW work is on nets. Otherwise, pse QNZ. If one is not on
frequency, one is not heard.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/21/2019 6:54 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 2/21/2019 4:04 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> And in a pileup the RX bandwidth is narrower. At 50 Hz BW any 12 to
>> 15 Hz away aren't heard.
>
> Not really, and for several reasons. First, many skilled CW ops use a
> fairly wide bandwidth in a pileup so that they hear off-frequency
> callers. Second, even at the 200 Hz IF setting and 250Hz roofing
> filter I routinely use, the -6dB bandwidth is on the order of 250 Hz
> (it's generally well known that the 250 Hz filter is closer to 350
> Hz). Given that 6 dB is roughly one S-unit, the practical RX bandwidth
> is more like 250 Hz for reasonably strong signals, and reasonably
> strong signals farther off frequency are going to be heard. Third, in
> a pileup, the WORST place to be is zero-beat, because that's where
> most stations call, and everyone's TX blends into a big mush.
>
> You DO want to zero-beat the CQer if you're weak and there are no
> other callers.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Deni F5VJC

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

I wondered if someone (Mike W5JR) would mention the N1MM feature to
randomise spots frequencies on the Bandmap so that you DONT call on Zero
beat.

I use this feature and it works of course but you often wonder if this is
the best tactic especially if you feel you are not getting a response
within a couple of calls.

Given that some ops will be listening with a very narrow filter at least
some of the time, you may not be in their filter passband and so not heard
if calling off frequency.

Thoughts anyone?

73 F5VJC

On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 02:14, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most of my CW work is on nets. Otherwise, pse QNZ. If one is not on
> frequency, one is not heard.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 2/21/2019 6:54 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 2/21/2019 4:04 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> >> And in a pileup the RX bandwidth is narrower. At 50 Hz BW any 12 to
> >> 15 Hz away aren't heard.
> >
> > Not really, and for several reasons. First, many skilled CW ops use a
> > fairly wide bandwidth in a pileup so that they hear off-frequency
> > callers. Second, even at the 200 Hz IF setting and 250Hz roofing
> > filter I routinely use, the -6dB bandwidth is on the order of 250 Hz
> > (it's generally well known that the 250 Hz filter is closer to 350
> > Hz). Given that 6 dB is roughly one S-unit, the practical RX bandwidth
> > is more like 250 Hz for reasonably strong signals, and reasonably
> > strong signals farther off frequency are going to be heard. Third, in
> > a pileup, the WORST place to be is zero-beat, because that's where
> > most stations call, and everyone's TX blends into a big mush.
> >
> > You DO want to zero-beat the CQer if you're weak and there are no
> > other callers.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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K9MA

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

On 2/21/2019 23:45, F5vjc wrote:
> I wondered if someone (Mike W5JR) would mention the N1MM feature to
> randomise spots frequencies on the Bandmap so that you DONT call on Zero
> beat.

I tried it, but I found it spread out the spots way too much, and could
find a way to control the spread. Now I just offset the XIT 30 Hz or so.

73,

Scott K9MA

--
Scott K9MA

[hidden email]

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Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

In reply to this post by N4ZR

Hi,

if you are using the SPOT function on K3 then be careful...
It does not work properly when you have the NTCH in use.
I do not know why but I noticed it several times that SPOT is failing with
NTCH ON.
Also it does not work for 100% when the receiving signal is weak...

-----
73 - Petr, OK1RP
"Apple & Elecraft freak"
B:http://ok1rp.blogspot.com
G+:http://goo.gl/w3u2s9
G+: http://goo.gl/gP99xq
--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
______________________________________________________________
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73 - Petr, OK1RP
"Apple & Elecraft freak"
B:http://ok1rp.blogspot.com
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MeWe: https://bit.ly/2FmwvDt

N4ZR

Re: To zero beat or not to zero beat

In reply to this post by N4ZR

Thanks everyone who responded to this. I checked my calibration as
suggested and believe it was, indeed, about 50 Hz above actual. I'll
test with some live spots.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 2/21/2019 4:44 PM, N4ZR wrote:

> Ever since I have owned my K3, I have noticed that most spots put the
> K3's receiver above the actual frequency of the spotted station.
> Initially, I thought this might have to do with DX spots being rounded
> to the nearest 100 Hz, but then I realized that, if that were the
> case, X percent of spots should be high, X low, and Y (whatever
> percent) effectively right on.
>
> I've checked the K3's calibration, and it appears to be right on at 10
> and 15 MHz, tuning in CW mode to WWV's carrier at my preset beat
> note. One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the DX
> cluster convention is always to round up, rather than up or down.
>
> Seems a little unlikely to me, but does anyone know the answer? I'm
> perfectly happy to keep jogging the main tuning knob a bit on most
> spots, but thought I'd ask.
>