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USB to serial angst

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: USB to serial angst

That is completely uninformed and demonstrates a dangerous lack
of knowledge about the way USB operates.

Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
board. If Elecraft were to use the prolific chipset currently
in the KUSB, they would also be stuck with the Prolific drivers
that are notoriously problematic with VB 6 software and would
render the K3 unusable with several popular software packages.

USB *** HAS NO ADVANTAGE *** over standard RS-232 ports and it
*** NEVER WILL ***. Going to USB requires a substantial added
investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
cost.

In addition to the software support cost, USB is a multiplexed
(shared) system level bus. Because of the system architecture
data rates on the bus are much higher than the serial equivalent
through put. That makes USB much more susceptible to both
radiated and conducted noise problems. Computer motherboards
(and laptop/netbooks) that fail to properly ground the USB
shield to the board's ground plane are almost guaranteed to
become wideband noise generators (something that is very rare
with the 8250 compatible UART).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of eric manning
> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:08 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>
>
> All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
>
> Then we could forget about un-necessary, expensive , flaky and
> crash-prone USB to serial adapters.
> THe serial port with its RS-232 interface is obsolete. It
> dates back to
> the 70's if not earlier and was superseded by USB.
>
> eric
>
> VA7DZ
>
> S/N 3640
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

> All one needs is a TI PCM2902 and a FTDI USB to RS232 chip
> and a little support analogy bits and poof you can have all
> that.

Plus a USB hub ... it's not as easy as one would imagine and
would add significantly (> $250 given normal parts to retail
ratios) to the cost of the transceiver.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brett Howard
> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 4:41 PM
> To: Joe Planisky
> Cc: [hidden email]; eric manning
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>
>
> All one needs is a TI PCM2902 and a FTDI USB to RS232 chip
> and a little support analogy bits and poof you can have all
> that. Heck I'd even bet it could be put onto a board small
> enough you could fit it inside your K3 and you'd also have
> full support for all of the OSes you wish!
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 11:39 -0800, Joe Planisky wrote:
> > Great idea as long as Elecraft provide and maintain drivers
> that work
> > with
> >
> > Win2K
> > WinXP,
> > Vista/32 bit
> > Vista/64 bit
> > Win7/32 bit
> > Win7/64 bit
> > Mac OS X 10.5 PPC,
> > Mac OS X 10.5 Intel,
> > Mac OS X 10.6,
> > and the various versions of Linux (32 and 64 bit).
> >
> > I'm all for it.
> >
> > 73
> > --
> > Joe KB8AP
> >
> > On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:08 AM, eric manning wrote:
> >
> > > All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
> > >
> > > ...
> > > eric
> > >
> > > VA7DZ
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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ac0h

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Well said.

There's no good reason for desktop Ham Radio computers to NOT have
serial ports.
The four port PCI serial card I bought for my new home brew machine
cost $20.
It works with all my operating systems, three at last count, and I don't
have to do any sort of configuration. Shut the computer off, install the
board, reboot.

USB has NO advantage over RS-232 at the data speeds we're talking about
and it brings a laundry list of potential problems that RS-232 just
doesn't have.

The reported "obsolescence" of RS-232 is highly exaggerated and
premature. For the most part caused by folks who use compromise
computers designed for portable use.

On 3/13/2010 7:10 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> That is completely uninformed and demonstrates a dangerous lack
> of knowledge about the way USB operates.
>
> Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
> currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
> board. If Elecraft were to use the prolific chipset currently
> in the KUSB, they would also be stuck with the Prolific drivers
> that are notoriously problematic with VB 6 software and would
> render the K3 unusable with several popular software packages.
>
> USB *** HAS NO ADVANTAGE *** over standard RS-232 ports and it
> *** NEVER WILL ***. Going to USB requires a substantial added
> investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
> cost.
>
> In addition to the software support cost, USB is a multiplexed
> (shared) system level bus. Because of the system architecture
> data rates on the bus are much higher than the serial equivalent
> through put. That makes USB much more susceptible to both
> radiated and conducted noise problems. Computer motherboards
> (and laptop/netbooks) that fail to properly ground the USB
> shield to the board's ground plane are almost guaranteed to
> become wideband noise generators (something that is very rare
> with the 8250 compatible UART).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of eric manning
>> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:08 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>>
>>
>> All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
>>
>> Then we could forget about un-necessary, expensive , flaky and
>> crash-prone USB to serial adapters.
>> THe serial port with its RS-232 interface is obsolete. It
>> dates back to
>> the 70's if not earlier and was superseded by USB.
>>
>> eric
>>
>> VA7DZ
>>
>> S/N 3640
>

--
R. Kevin Stover

ACØH

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Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Cookie

RS-232 port wins for simplicity and for easy troubleshooting. Elecraft
made the right decision.
When things don't seem to work right, being able to see the controls and
data with a simple LED tester makes for quick problem solving.

Alan

Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX
570-321-1516
http://WilcoxEngineering.com
Williamsport, PA 17701

WILLIS COOKE wrote:

> The need to avoid the Prolific chip set may be fleeting and the problem may even be sorted out by now. The Prolific adapter worked just fine unless you were trying to use one of the loggers compiled in Visual Basic for Rig Control. I have seen some reports that a new Prolific driver released in December has solved the problem.
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Brett Howard <[hidden email]>
> To: Lew Phelps K6LMP <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:42:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>
> Actually its exactly that simple...
>
> I'm not sure that people would consider that an improvement as the only
> thing it does is move the USB to RS232 adapter into the radio rather
> than an external adapter but I think if everyone was using FTDI adapters
> there would be a lot fewer complaints about the adapters.
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 11:26 -0800, Lew Phelps K6LMP wrote:
>
>> Folks, I asked Elecraft about this before I bought my rig in January; they said it's "on the list" but not as easy to do as one might think. I figured they could just drop an FTDI chipset into the rig in place of the RS232 jack, but it seems that it's not all that simple.
>>
>> Patience is a virtue.
>>
>> Lew K6LMP
>>
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:08 AM, eric manning wrote:
>>
>>
>>> All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
>>>
>>> Then we could forget about un-necessary, expensive , flaky and
>>> crash-prone USB to serial adapters.
>>> THe serial port with its RS-232 interface is obsolete. It dates back to
>>> the 70's if not earlier and was superseded by USB.
>>>
>>> eric
>>>
>>> VA7DZ
>>>
>>> S/N 3640
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>

Eric Manning

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

The conservative spirit is alive and well. USB seen as a dangerous and
radical innovation, forsooth.

On 3/13/2010 5:10 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> That is completely uninformed and demonstrates a dangerous lack
> of knowledge about the way USB operates.
>
Aw, shucks.
> Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
> currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
> board.
Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and superfluous packaging
and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.
> If Elecraft were to use the prolific chipset currently
> in the KUSB,
If my mother were a bus , I would have wheels.
> they would also be stuck with the Prolific drivers
> that are notoriously problematic with VB 6 software and would
> render the K3 unusable with several popular software packages.
>
> USB *** HAS NO ADVANTAGE *** over standard RS-232 ports and it
> *** NEVER WILL ***.
Well, how about
1. speed
2. flexibillity
3. fanout
4. less prone to abuse of the control lines , violations of the standard
, e.g. using them to send Morse, for shame.
Other than that, and vendor support as it is current practice not an
archaic legacy artifact, I can't think of any.
> Going to USB requires a substantial added
> investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
> cost.
>
True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of those stupid
and crash-prone dongles.
Being a customer not a vendor, I'm for that tradeoff.
> In addition to the software support cost, USB is a multiplexed
> (shared)
correct

system level bus.

with respect, it is a low-speed peripheral level bus.

> Because of the system architecture
> data rates on the bus are
[ may be, depending on the application]
> much higher than the serial equivalent
> through put. That makes USB much more susceptible to both
> radiated and conducted noise problems. Computer motherboards
> (and laptop/netbooks) that fail to properly ground the USB
> shield to the board's ground plane are almost guaranteed to
> become wideband noise generators (something that is very rare
> with the 8250 compatible UART).
>

Very true, but with respect, off topic. The assertion ignores the
awkward fact that all computers built in this century have USB, and not
the ancient RS 232...
We are stuck with that fact.
And, the conversation was about USB on the K3, not on the computer...

> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of eric manning
>> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:08 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>>
>>
>> All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
>>
>> Then we could forget about un-necessary, expensive , flaky and
>> crash-prone USB to serial adapters.
>> THe serial port with its RS-232 interface is obsolete. It
>> dates back to
>> the 70's if not earlier and was superseded by USB.
>>
>> eric
>>
>> VA7DZ
>>
>> S/N 3640
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>> believed to be clean.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

--
Eric G Manning,P.Eng., FIEEE, FEIC
Prof Emeritus of CS& ECE
Univ of Victoria

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

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N2TK

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

That is exactly how I got a serial port in my Dell Optiplex. Found it on the
motherboard and made sure it was listed in Bios.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alan Bloom
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst

A lot of PCs that "don't have a serial port" actually do have the
electronics on the motherboard. If so, you can mount your own DB-9
connector on the rear panel and wire it to the motherboard.

The motherboard connector is often a 10-pin (two rows of 5 pins) header
with one pin removed to give a one-for-one correspondence to a 9-pin
RS-232 connector. If you can't find the COM ports in Windows, you might
have to check the "integrated peripherals" section of the BIOS to see if
the manufacturer has disabled serial ports in the BIOS.

It might be worth a look before going out and buying a serial PCI card
(or a new computer).

Al N1AL

On Fri, 2010-03-12 at 20:31 -0500, Mike wrote:
> For those suffering from lack of a real serial port, something I found
> today may interest you. PC's with a real serial port, and a parallel
> port to boot (no pun intended). There are a couple of differently
> equipped ones on the page. It has no OS installed, so you'll need one.
>
> I ordered one. If you have a local store, call and they'll order it for
> you. I have no connection to CompUSA.
>
>
http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=57424
68&CatId=2629

>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Guy, K2AV

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Eric Manning

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Eric Manning <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> The conservative spirit is alive and well. USB seen as a dangerous and
> radical innovation, forsooth.

Demonizing the other side with a label (or two) is cheap.

It is SO easy (and tempting) to concoct self-serving responsibilities
and heap them elsewhere for expenditure of *their* resources.

Frankly, as seen with the Windows 7-Prolific-FTDI driver wars, anyone
who depends on USB is at the mercy of chip makers and OS coders, who
frankly could give a rat's *ss about whether or not hams blinking an
RTS signal into a virtual com port will be able to see it on the far
end of a USB/serial converter, and who are going blame it on the other
guy until they get clubbed to death by the problem. Hear about people
being unable to update podcasts on their IPOD's? Go google that one
and see how well everybody cooperates. See how quickly and accurately
the various tech support staffs picked up on it.

AND, as seen on this reflector, it's the K3's fault ("my K3 has a
problem") until someone else can construct a federal case why it is
not.

Why, on God's green earth would any sane manufacturer build such a
troublesome device as USB into a rig just to sit there and get blamed
for whatever the latest Windows release or driver screws up in USB
communication.

If Wayne didn't have a com port on the back, there would be no way for
him to prove that the d*mn USB drivers have gone batty again, and he
would have to spend all that tech support time telling people that
there will be no solution for them using Windows 13.9 eighth edition
fix pack 4 until XYZ chip company recodes their drivers to abide by
new KB293429865023787 USB anti-hacking protocol which prevents foreign
agents from using USB hubs as spam email proxies on Windows 13
systems.

USB may be ubiquitous, but it is implemented in a non-standard way
both hardware and software, drivers are more or less sh*t and probably
responsible for more indecipherable screwball problems than any other
single device in the world of PC's.

73, Guy.
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Joe Planisky

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Eric Manning

Comments embedded.

On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Eric Manning wrote:

>
>> Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
>> currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
>> board.
> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and superfluous
> packaging
> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.
>> ...

>> Going to USB requires a substantial added
>> investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
>> cost.
>>
> True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
> But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of those stupid
> and crash-prone dongles.

So wait a second. You admit that putting a USB interface in the K3
would essentially be repackaging the same chips that are in the
dongles into the K3. But then you condemn those dongles (and by
association the chips in them) as "stupid" and "crash-prone". How
will putting the same chips into the K3 make them any less "stupid"
and "crash-prone"?

If my external dongle doesn't work with my particular hardware and/or
software, I can go out and buy a different one for less than $20.
Yes, an irritation and an inconvenience. But if my K3 (with the
hypothetical built-in USB interface) doesn't work with my hardware/
software, then what do I do?

73
--
Joe KB8AP

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S Sacco

Re: USB to serial angst

Great debate, but perhaps misplaced?

Would not a better answer be an Ethernet connection on the K3?

73,
Steve

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Joe Planisky <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Comments embedded.
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Eric Manning wrote:
>
>>
>>> Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
>>> currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
>>> board.
>> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and superfluous
>> packaging
>> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.
>>> ...
>
>>> Going to USB requires a substantial added
>>> investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
>>> cost.
>>>
>> True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
>> But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of those stupid
>> and crash-prone dongles.
>
> So wait a second. You admit that putting a USB interface in the K3
> would essentially be repackaging the same chips that are in the
> dongles into the K3. But then you condemn those dongles (and by
> association the chips in them) as "stupid" and "crash-prone". How
> will putting the same chips into the K3 make them any less "stupid"
> and "crash-prone"?
>
> If my external dongle doesn't work with my particular hardware and/or
> software, I can go out and buy a different one for less than $20.
> Yes, an irritation and an inconvenience. But if my K3 (with the
> hypothetical built-in USB interface) doesn't work with my hardware/
> software, then what do I do?
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Re: USB to serial angst

Probably not at this time. The loggers that I use would not be set up for this. It would be good for remoted radios. I think the Omni 7 has this so some of their owners might have insight on how ready for prime time it is. Personally, I like the RS-232, I added a dual serial port card to my computer and am happy as a bug now.
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

________________________________
From: S Sacco <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 7:17:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst

Great debate, but perhaps misplaced?

Would not a better answer be an Ethernet connection on the K3?

73,
Steve

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Roger de Valle

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by S Sacco

Totally agree, a direct Ethernet connection would open a world of
possibilities, remote operation without a remote PC and also remove the
driver dependencies that plague the USB to serial arena. I suspect it
will not be long before we see it on the mainstream manufacturers
equipment.

Regards.

Roger VK3ADE.

S Sacco wrote:
> Great debate, but perhaps misplaced?
>
> Would not a better answer be an Ethernet connection on the K3?
>
> 73,
> Steve
>
>
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by S Sacco

Steve,

I agree that both RS-232 and 802.1 (Ethernet) are standard
communications protocols and can be viable.
BUT
How many of the ham applications today operate over an Ethernet connection?
Do you want to give up your favorite logger or radio control application
because the author has coded for serial port communications?
When I see those applications providing communications over Ethernet,
then I say it would be a better solution, but it is not today's reality.
Yes, we could use a serial to Ethernet adapter, but isn't that just as
bad as a USB to Serial adapter. The Serial to Ethernet adapter approach
is not going to allow the full benefit of an Ethernet implementation
which is having the K3 on a network connection and available anywhere
TCP/IP can address it.

When a number of Ham Radio applications begin to support Ethernet
communications (Ham Radio Deluxe does have capability for remote
control, but needs another copy running at the remote site to convert
that to serial), then I will concede that Ethernet is a good solution.
In the meantime, we are using serial port communications, and it does
work very well as long as the computer has a good serial port - USB
adapters sometimes provide good serial ports, but others do not. As far
as I am concerned, USB support and Firewire support are fraught with
limitations because they require driver support for each device in the
computer. RS-232 and Ethernet require only driver support in the
computer for the communications port itself and not every device that
hangs off that port. The application being run provides the data stream
that is directed through that port.

73,
Don W3FPR

S Sacco wrote:

> Great debate, but perhaps misplaced?
>
> Would not a better answer be an Ethernet connection on the K3?
>
> 73,
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Joe Planisky <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Comments embedded.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Eric Manning wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
>>>> currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
>>>> board.
>>>>
>>> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and superfluous
>>> packaging
>>> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Going to USB requires a substantial added
>>>> investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support
>>>> cost.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
>>> But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of those stupid
>>> and crash-prone dongles.
>>>
>> So wait a second. You admit that putting a USB interface in the K3
>> would essentially be repackaging the same chips that are in the
>> dongles into the K3. But then you condemn those dongles (and by
>> association the chips in them) as "stupid" and "crash-prone". How
>> will putting the same chips into the K3 make them any less "stupid"
>> and "crash-prone"?
>>
>> If my external dongle doesn't work with my particular hardware and/or
>> software, I can go out and buy a different one for less than $20.
>> Yes, an irritation and an inconvenience. But if my K3 (with the
>> hypothetical built-in USB interface) doesn't work with my hardware/
>> software, then what do I do?
>>
>> 73
>> --
>> Joe KB8AP
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>

Rick Prather

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Roger de Valle

I guess you don't consider Ten-Tec as a "mainstream manufacturer".

The Omni VII has had a direct Ethernet connection for a couple of years.

The concept is great and I enjoyed using it but the point that several have made that no current logging programs use ethernet as an interface makes it less than usable except for N4PY software and the proprietary Ten-Tec "One Plug" software.

I personally don't see the "angst". I connect my Mac via either of two Serial/USB adaptors to my logging and / or control software and haven't had a major problem.

Rick
K6LE

On 3/14/2010, at 5:28 , Roger de Valle wrote:

> Totally agree, a direct Ethernet connection would open a world of
> possibilities, remote operation without a remote PC and also remove the
> driver dependencies that plague the USB to serial arena. I suspect it
> will not be long before we see it on the mainstream manufacturers
> equipment.
>
> Regards.
>
> Roger VK3ADE.
>
> S Sacco wrote:
>> Great debate, but perhaps misplaced?
>>
>> Would not a better answer be an Ethernet connection on the K3?
>>
>> 73,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>
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N3PSJ-2

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

There are several free software applications that emulate an rs-232 port and
send the rs-232 commands to a configured ethernet IP address and port.
They work very similar to LP Bridge, but they allow you to forward the
communication to the ethernet port. Once the software is installed it
creates a virtual serial port and you just point your control software to
the virtual port. The software then send the commands from the virtual port
to the ethernet ip address and port.

Just add the ethernet to the rig. No adapter required. Just another layer
of software.....until the control software developers implement ethernet.

As a software developer, I can tell you that it is quite simple to add
ethernet support to the control software. There is a chicken or egg issue
here. The software developers are not going to add ethernet until the
hardware designers add it. Why would they, if nobody can use it.

Ken KE3C
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Ken Nicely (N3PSJ)

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: USB to serial angst

Ken,

Agreed from the applications perspective, but the TCP/IP stack has to be
implemented at the device end too. That is not just a simple 'add-on'.
It requires not only the hardware interface layer, but the transport
layer and the protocol layer as well as the application layer to be
implemented (actually I have forgotten the exact technical names for the
stack layers, it has been 20 years since I encountered them on a daily
basis - I did work on networking products, but on the hardware side).
However, my point is that that there must be some amount of intelligence
put into the device to be able to assign/detect an IP address and have
it respond accordingly to the Ethernet traffic that is flowing on the
network. Not an insurmountable task, but it is not in the K3 today.
Perhaps in the future, or in a K4 that might come along someday (but not
anytime soon).
RS-232 OTOH is point to point, and all data flowing to the device is for
that device - it does not take a processing engine to detect an address
and then pick off the data.

73,
Don W3FPR

Ken Nicely wrote:

> There are several free software applications that emulate an rs-232 port and
> send the rs-232 commands to a configured ethernet IP address and port.
> They work very similar to LP Bridge, but they allow you to forward the
> communication to the ethernet port. Once the software is installed it
> creates a virtual serial port and you just point your control software to
> the virtual port. The software then send the commands from the virtual port
> to the ethernet ip address and port.
>
> Just add the ethernet to the rig. No adapter required. Just another layer
> of software.....until the control software developers implement ethernet.
>
> As a software developer, I can tell you that it is quite simple to add
> ethernet support to the control software. There is a chicken or egg issue
> here. The software developers are not going to add ethernet until the
> hardware designers add it. Why would they, if nobody can use it.
>
> Ken KE3C
>
>

N3PSJ-2

Re: USB to serial angst

You are certainly right that there would need to be some intelligence added
in on the hardware side. Some of the newer pic controllers like the
pic18f87j60 (I happen to be playing with that one now) have much of the
functionality built into the controller and there are libraries for the
routines, so it is not such a big hurdle. It would have to me made a
priority by Elecraft and I am not so sure that there would be enough bang
for the buck for them to justify the work. I for one would buy an add on
board that went right in the radio for say $100 or maybe even a little more,
but I doubt I am in the majority. I also would doubt that there would be
enough people interested....even at that price.

Ethernet is definitely be something I will be looking for in future radios.

I purchased a Datacom Networking ATC-1000 recently and had it working with
the K3. It is an ethernet to serial port bridge device. It worked fine as
long as I was just talking to the K3 with one application, but as soon as I
had its virtual port being referenced by LP Bridge there seemed to be too
many layers of virtual ports and it became unstable. I did not spend a lot
of time trying to get it to work. That is on my todo list. I think I might
be able to get it working well with some tinkering of the settings.

Ken KE3C

>>
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Ken Nicely (N3PSJ)

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Eric Manning

Well, without calling anything names ...

> > Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
> > currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3
> board.
>
> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and
> superfluous packaging
> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.

And would not resolve the driver compatibility issues. There are
no drivers to be concerned with when using an 8250 compatible
UART in DOS, 16 bit Windows, 32 bit Windows, 64 bit windows,
OS-X or any flavor of *NIX.

> > If Elecraft were to use the prolific chipset currently
> > in the KUSB,
>
> If my mother were a bus , I would have wheels.

That's intelligent! The whole point is that USB is far
from "universal."

> > USB *** HAS NO ADVANTAGE *** over standard RS-232 ports and it
> > *** NEVER WILL ***.
>
> Well, how about
> 1. speed

Let's see ... 8250 compatible serial ports are capable of data
rates to 230K bps. That's far faster than the K3 processor is
capable of handling.

> 2. flexibillity

what flexibility? We're talking about a point to point channel
controlling a single device.

> 3. fanout

Who cares? Again, this is a point to point channel controlling
a single device. Fanout requires hubs and divides the bus
bandwidth.

> 4. less prone to abuse of the control lines , violations of
> the standard
> , e.g. using them to send Morse, for shame.

... and you cited "flexibility" as an advantage for USB? What
is wrong with using RTS (ready to send!) for PTT or DTR for CW?

> > Going to USB requires a substantial added
> > investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support cost.
> >
> True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
> But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of
> those stupid and crash-prone dongles.

I'd far rather spend $20 on a quality USB to serial adapter if
I did not already have serial ports than spend an extra $200
for the USB port, hub, software costs, support costs, etc. to
have additional (unnecessary) hardware grafted onto the radio.

> Being a customer not a vendor, I'm for that tradeoff.

You want to pay MORE for the radio that offers no additional
performance, has greater opportunity for failure, and features
than most owners will never use? You're not like any customer
I've ever seen!

> > In addition to the software support cost, USB is a multiplexed
> > (shared)
> correct
>
> system level bus.
>
>
> with respect, it is a low-speed peripheral level bus.

Still is it a much higher data rate because of the encapsulation
and multiplexing. Combined with the lower signal levels (0-5V
or 0-3.3V), the higher bit rate make USB more susceptible to
transmitted RF (common mode and near field coupling) and more
likely to cause radiated and conducted interference to the
receiver (broken shields, on board coupling, etc.).

Careful analysis of the facts can catalog more than a dozen
reasons not to replace the standard RS-232 serial port with
embedded USB and only one reason to do so (it's "cool").
There are certainly no performance advantages to USB in a
single channel, low speed, short range point-to-point
application

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Manning [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:42 PM
> To: Joe Subich, W4TV; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
>
>
>
>
> The conservative spirit is alive and well. USB seen as a
> dangerous and
> radical innovation, forsooth.
>
> On 3/13/2010 5:10 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >
> > That is completely uninformed and demonstrates a dangerous lack of
> > knowledge about the way USB operates.
> >
> Aw, shucks.
> > Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB UART
> currently
> > found in the USB to serial converter onto the KIO3 board.
> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and
> superfluous packaging
> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.
> > If Elecraft were to use the prolific chipset currently
> > in the KUSB,
> If my mother were a bus , I would have wheels.
> > they would also be stuck with the Prolific drivers
> > that are notoriously problematic with VB 6 software and
> would render
> > the K3 unusable with several popular software packages.
> >
> > USB *** HAS NO ADVANTAGE *** over standard RS-232 ports and it
> > *** NEVER WILL ***.
> Well, how about
> 1. speed
> 2. flexibillity
> 3. fanout
> 4. less prone to abuse of the control lines , violations of
> the standard
> , e.g. using them to send Morse, for shame.
> Other than that, and vendor support as it is current practice not an
> archaic legacy artifact, I can't think of any.
> > Going to USB requires a substantial added
> > investment by the manufacturer and a major ongoing support cost.
> >
> True, depending on what you mean by substantial and major.
> But avoids us customers being forced to buy thousands of
> those stupid
> and crash-prone dongles.
> Being a customer not a vendor, I'm for that tradeoff.
> > In addition to the software support cost, USB is a multiplexed
> > (shared)
> correct
>
> system level bus.
>
>
> with respect, it is a low-speed peripheral level bus.
>
>
>
> > Because of the system architecture
> > data rates on the bus are
> [ may be, depending on the application]
> > much higher than the serial equivalent
> > through put. That makes USB much more susceptible to both radiated
> > and conducted noise problems. Computer motherboards (and
> > laptop/netbooks) that fail to properly ground the USB shield to the
> > board's ground plane are almost guaranteed to become wideband noise
> > generators (something that is very rare with the 8250 compatible
> > UART).
> >
>
> Very true, but with respect, off topic. The assertion ignores the
> awkward fact that all computers built in this century have
> USB, and not
> the ancient RS 232...
> We are stuck with that fact.
> And, the conversation was about USB on the K3, not on the computer...
> > 73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of eric manning
> >> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:08 PM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
> >>
> >>
> >> All in favour of a USB port on the K3?
> >>
> >> Then we could forget about un-necessary, expensive , flaky and
> >> crash-prone USB to serial adapters. THe serial port with
> its RS-232
> >> interface is obsolete. It dates back to
> >> the 70's if not earlier and was superseded by USB.
> >>
> >> eric
> >>
> >> VA7DZ
> >>
> >> S/N 3640
> >>
> >> --
> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> >> believed to be clean.
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Eric G Manning,P.Eng., FIEEE, FEIC
> Prof Emeritus of CS& ECE
> Univ of Victoria
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by N3PSJ-2

Full Ethernet capability - including working directly as a network
device - is in the future. Full Ethernet capability reuires more than
just an Ethernet to serial converter. If the Ethernet connectio is
nothing more than an Ethernet to serial converter, then why not stay
with straight serial port point to point communications. The addressing
capability from a network is the advantage of Ethernet - the data to the
device cnn be the same.

So show me an Ethernet to serial converter that can live at a device
location without the need for a computer at the device end and I will
concede. A plain Ethernet to serial converter is not that sophisticated
(unless someone has found one that I have not looked at, or the price
for the embedded copmuter is excessive).

73,
Don W3FPR

Ken Nicely wrote:

> You are certainly right that there would need to be some intelligence added
> in on the hardware side. Some of the newer pic controllers like the
> pic18f87j60 (I happen to be playing with that one now) have much of the
> functionality built into the controller and there are libraries for the
> routines, so it is not such a big hurdle. It would have to me made a
> priority by Elecraft and I am not so sure that there would be enough bang
> for the buck for them to justify the work. I for one would buy an add on
> board that went right in the radio for say $100 or maybe even a little more,
> but I doubt I am in the majority. I also would doubt that there would be
> enough people interested....even at that price.
>
> Ethernet is definitely be something I will be looking for in future radios.
>
> I purchased a Datacom Networking ATC-1000 recently and had it working with
> the K3. It is an ethernet to serial port bridge device. It worked fine as
> long as I was just talking to the K3 with one application, but as soon as I
> had its virtual port being referenced by LP Bridge there seemed to be too
> many layers of virtual ports and it became unstable. I did not spend a lot
> of time trying to get it to work. That is on my todo list. I think I might
> be able to get it working well with some tinkering of the settings.
>
> Ken KE3C
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00
>
>

Julian, G4ILO

Re: USB to serial angst

The thing about the RS-232 interface is that it doesn't limit anyone's options.You can use it with an RS-232 port on the computer, or with a USB interface via an adapter. You can also use it for remote control over Ethernet using one of the couple of "remote rig" products I've seen advertised recently in QST for $200 or so (which incidentally is probably some indication of how much more we'd all have to pay if Elecraft had chosen this communication method in the K3, regardless of whether we needed the function.) The RS-232 adds the least cost to the price of the radio for those who wish to use it for nothing other than updating the firmware. On both flexibility and cost, the choice of RS-232 wins hands down over all other options.

How so much angst can be caused over having to buy an external interface - which costs little more than the price of a straight RS-232 cable - amazes me. The driver issues would not be resolved by moving USB hardware inside the radio. In fact they would be made worse, by making it impossible for users to try alternative options. The responsibility for resolving the issues would be put on to Elecraft, who doubtless would have to restrict the size of the problem by deciding to support only the most commonly used computing platforms.

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: USB to serial angst

In reply to this post by Rick Prather

K6LE said:

"I personally don't see the "angst"."

I have to agree.

Most of the angst seems to come from those who think that USB to Serial
adapters should be plug and play without doing any work. While such an idea
sounds like it makes sense, the reality is quite different.

Getting these things to work is troublesome - sometimes. Sorry.

All the repeated and incessant bleating here about it is just a waste of
bandwidth.

73,

Bob W5OV

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