USB to serial angst

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Re: USB to serial angst

N3PSJ-2
I personally have tried about 5 different adapters.  Even USB-RS232 adapters
from with the same chip set different sources seem to function differently.
 It took 5 adapters before I found one that would work with my laptop.
 Personally, I think the issue is that different adaptors function
differently on different computers as well.  One that works on my HP server
machine will blue screen my one laptop.  I have tried these adapters on
about 5 different computers and depending on the computer they might or
might not work.

A good ethernet interface which communicates without using any rs-232 serial
bus protocall internal would be best.

The user could then simply plug the radio into the network, set a static IP
address and port and connect to it using the PC and an existing network
card.   The only wire required would be a network cable.  If you do not
happen to have an extra network connection you would need a switch or
router, but they are very very cheap.

Until the software vendors get their software upgraded you could use one of
the free programs that create a virtual serial port and forward the commands
to an IP address.  I suspect the software vendors would be very quick to
make the change to connect directly via IP since it is essentially doing the
same communications on a the ethernet interface.  I have not added that to
K-Keys yet, but I am now considering adding it.....just to make a point.

An added benefit to an ethernet interface is it would eliminate the need for
a program such as LP Bridge.  With ethernet, the K3 would know who is
connected to it because each connection would have its own port.  That would
allow the K3 to know who is requesting information, so it could respond to
just that machine.  It could also broadcast certain information to all
connections (like the frequency) so that each software program would not
have to constantly poll the K3.  This would make the communication much more
efficient.

I don't mean to be putting down LP Bridge.  It is a great program and works
very well, but it exists because the only one software application can talk
reliably to a serial port at one time.

Ken KE3C

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Bob Naumann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> K6LE said:
>
> "I personally don't see the "angst"."
>
> I have to agree.
>
> Most of the angst seems to come from those who think that USB to Serial
> adapters should be plug and play without doing any work. While such an idea
> sounds like it makes sense, the reality is quite different.
>
> Getting these things to work is troublesome - sometimes. Sorry.
>
> All the repeated and incessant bleating here about it is just a waste of
> bandwidth.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob W5OV
>
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Ken Nicely (N3PSJ)
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Re: USB to serial angst

Julian, G4ILO
N3PSJ-2 wrote
A good ethernet interface which communicates without using any rs-232 serial
bus protocall internal would be best.

Until the software vendors get their software upgraded you could use one of
the free programs that create a virtual serial port and forward the commands
to an IP address.  I suspect the software vendors would be very quick to
make the change to connect directly via IP since it is essentially doing the
same communications on a the ethernet interface.
I haven't tried these free programs but I would not be surprised to find compatibility issues arise with some programs just as they do using the virtual serial port software (a different type of emulation) or indeed USB adapters. Also we are not talking about software vendors but amateur written software some of whose developers may no longer be updating their programs. Some keen contesters even use software that runs under DOS. Such considerations mean that decisions which might make sense if we were talking about mass market consumer hardware may not be appropriate in a ham radio context.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Re: USB to serial angst - move beyond emulation

Jeff Herr
In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2
Why use rs232 emulation at all?

Emulation = not necessarily a good thing

When you plug in a high speed USB disk you wouldn't expect the data to be
handled via rs232 emulation would you?
When you plug in a Ethernet device you wouldn't expect the data to be
handled via rs232 emulation would you?

Why use emulation at all?  I know, I know, HRD....



A "telnet" interface on the Elecraft side via Ethernet, all native, would
require no drivers on the pc side.
A native USB interface could be done the same way.

Both would require a supporting application and/or library on the pc side,
but would work well and be very high performance and stability.
Both would require firmware support on the Elecraft side......as does the
existing rs232 methodology.

But the result ...  No drivers to load, no silly configuration, no conflicts
with other serial devices, no baud rates to set.

Let's face it, 232 emulation over USB is "messy" and it's a remnant of the
past.
Just the fact that all of us have been exposed to so much trouble is a bad
indicator.

My bet is the chipset isn't the problem it's the interface on the pc side. I
think that lack of standards in this niche have resulted in a lot of sloppy
code that "sort of works" but does not tolerate change. i.e. using a diff
USB port.



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Re: USB to serial angst - move beyond emulation

Joe Subich, W4TV-4


> When you plug in a high speed USB disk you wouldn't expect
> the data to be handled via rs232 emulation would you?

High speed USB disks use serial protocol - the transport is
the same as RS-232 but does not include the +/- 10-12V drivers.
Support for high speed serial data transfer (e.g., USB hard
drives, cameras, etc.) is the primary reason that "modern"
USB adapters no longer support 45.45 baud 5 bit codes!  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeff Herr
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 11:10 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst - move beyond emulation
>
>
> Why use rs232 emulation at all?
>
> Emulation = not necessarily a good thing
>
> When you plug in a high speed USB disk you wouldn't expect
> the data to be handled via rs232 emulation would you?
> When you plug in a Ethernet device you wouldn't expect the
> data to be handled via rs232 emulation would you?
>
> Why use emulation at all?  I know, I know, HRD....
>
>
>
> A "telnet" interface on the Elecraft side via Ethernet, all
> native, would require no drivers on the pc side. A native USB
> interface could be done the same way.
>
> Both would require a supporting application and/or library on
> the pc side, but would work well and be very high performance
> and stability. Both would require firmware support on the
> Elecraft side......as does the existing rs232 methodology.
>
> But the result ...  No drivers to load, no silly
> configuration, no conflicts with other serial devices, no
> baud rates to set.
>
> Let's face it, 232 emulation over USB is "messy" and it's a
> remnant of the past. Just the fact that all of us have been
> exposed to so much trouble is a bad indicator.
>
> My bet is the chipset isn't the problem it's the interface on
> the pc side. I think that lack of standards in this niche
> have resulted in a lot of sloppy code that "sort of works"
> but does not tolerate change. i.e. using a diff USB port.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: USB to serial angst

Lu Romero - W4LT
In reply to this post by Mike Reublin
All:

Not to again beat this thread to death, but I am always
amazed at all the "angst" folks here seem to experience with
USB to Serial adaptors.  All you have to do is do some
homework...

One of my jobs at work is to be responsible for electronic
systems in our traveling museum displays.  We also have
"trinket stores" that go along with these exhibitions.  In
the museum and in the attached stores there are quite a few
ancient serial devices like industrial video playout boxes,
GPI (General Purpose Interface) switching for lights, doors
and audio in our theaters, POS (Point of Sales) barcode
scanners and serial programming interfaces to "show control
system controllers" just to name a few applications.  We
operate in the neighborhood of 35-45 computers for various
applications in each traveling exhibit (there are now
three).  The original design of these venues predated me and
unfortunately, Im stuck with maintaining it and, as usual,
there is no money for technology redesign.  When it came
time to replace computers, I am hard pressed to find any
that have multiple serial ports.  So I had to find reliable
USB to serial converters.

I did some research and tried a myriad of manufacturers.
>From Belkin to Radio shack to B&B Engineering, Some worked,
some did not.  I have found one unit which, to date, has
handled EVERYTHING I have thrown at it with total
reliability at a very attractive price.  It can be found
here:

http://www.saelig.com/USAC/U050.htm

This $19 USD converter has never failed to run any of our
serial devices in the museum.  Also, I have three of them at
home (I only use one actively now) and they work perfectly
in my shack.  They have driven the CAT for a Kenwood TS850S
with a CT232 serial to TTL converter, a Kenwood TS570D
directly, an Icom IC756Pro2 via a homebrew CI-V adaptor, an
Icom 746 with a W1CEE CI-V adaptor, and an Icom IC7700 via a
genuine Icom CI-V nterface.  I have also controlled a M2
2800 antenna rotor via its serial control port as well as
using it to directly key RTTY and CW Up to about 45wpm, then
it gets a bit shaky) with some transistor switches.

This converter features "full modem control signals & data
signal" support and has nifty little red LED's you can look
at through a clear port in the shell to visually make sure
the port is working.  

These handy devices are based on FTDI chips, and you can
download the drivers from the FTDI website.  The USB-COM-S
supports Windows 98, ME, CE, 2000, XP, Apple MAC OS8 or
higher, Linux 2.4.0 and later, OpenBSD 2.9 and later &
FreeBSD 4.7 and later.

There is not a serial device that I have thrown at this
thing that it has not been able to handle.  All of the ones
I have purchased over the past 3 years are all working with
no down time.

Since I have been using this thing, I have no more USB
angst, at home or at work.  

I have no personal connection to Saelig Company, just a
satisfied user.

I do not want a USB interface in my radios.  I am holding
out for Ethernet control, but am unwilling to trust my
operating time to TenTec software.

Lu Romero - W4LT

-----------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:35:45 -0400
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB to serial angst
To: "'Eric Manning'" <[hidden email]>,
    <[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <CCAC64FC4734458E82B88CFCF1A4382B@laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"


Well, without calling anything names ...

> > Placing a USB port in the K3 would simply move the USB
UART
> > currently found in the USB to serial converter onto the
KIO3
> board.
>
> Correct, and would thus avoid the un-necessary and
> superfluous packaging
> and connector costs of the USB/RS232 dongle.


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Re: USB to serial angst

Julian, G4ILO
Lu Romero - W4LT wrote
I did some research and tried a myriad of manufacturers.
>From Belkin to Radio shack to B&B Engineering, Some worked,
some did not.  I have found one unit which, to date, has
handled EVERYTHING I have thrown at it with total
reliability at a very attractive price.  It can be found
here:

http://www.saelig.com/USAC/U050.htm

These handy devices are based on FTDI chips, and you can
download the drivers from the FTDI website.  The USB-COM-S
supports Windows 98, ME, CE, 2000, XP, Apple MAC OS8 or
higher, Linux 2.4.0 and later, OpenBSD 2.9 and later &
FreeBSD 4.7 and later.
That looks *exactly* like the one I've got, except that there is no name on it.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Re: USB to serial angst

ab2tc
And I have one from IOGear that looks exactly like it, too. My final choice after trying many, including the much praised Keyspan. This is the only one which does not occasionally blue-screen LP-Bridge.

AB2TC - Knut

Julian, G4ILO wrote
<snip>
That looks *exactly* like the one I've got, except that there is no name on it.
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Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Tom Azlin N4ZPT
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Hi Don,

Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.

http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html

Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?

73, Tom n4zpt

On 3/15/2010 12:04 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> So show me an Ethernet to serial converter that can live at a device
> location without the need for a computer at the device end and I will
> concede.  A plain Ethernet to serial converter is not that sophisticated
> (unless someone has found one that I have not looked at, or the price
> for the embedded copmuter is excessive).
>
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Tom Azlin N4ZPT
Oh, will try testing the neteon one with LP-Bridge since I have it here
in the shack.

73, tom

On 3/16/2010 12:05 AM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>
> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>
> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>
> 73, Tom n4zpt
>
> On 3/15/2010 12:04 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> So show me an Ethernet to serial converter that can live at a device
>> location without the need for a computer at the device end and I will
>> concede.  A plain Ethernet to serial converter is not that sophisticated
>> (unless someone has found one that I have not looked at, or the price
>> for the embedded copmuter is excessive).
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Tom Azlin N4ZPT
Tom,

Those show promise.  Keep us posted on the results of your experiments.
What about latency?  Does it work with QSK CW?  How to handle the audio
channel?

To successfully work with existing applications, they would have to be
addressable as a com port to any computer on the network.

Since those adapters are for industrial applications rather than
consumer, I would expect them to be less 'flaky'.  That goes for the USB
to serial adapters for industrial use as well - I noted that NetEon has
industrial USB to RS-232 adapters too.

73,
Don W3FPR

Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>
> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>
> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>
> 73, Tom n4zpt
>  
>
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

k0wa@swbell.net
In reply to this post by Tom Azlin N4ZPT

I have had experience with Lantronix products and the Ethernet to
Serial device.  Lantronix does know both areas...serial and ethernet.  I used these devices connecting Laboratory devices (chemistry - Blood
Analyzers, and a host of other critical hospital laboratory devices) to
the network which were them access via the software running on the
server.  The program could read and write to the medical equipment very
well and worked in critical applications all through an IP address on the
network.  

These were critical systems....information that were
sent to Docs to treat patients.  It went perfectly.  I would think that
these devices would be perfect to controlling a rig on a network.  In
the medical field, we were not worried about timing latency because it was not "super-real-time" as it would be in sending Code or
Voice.  We were sending chunks of data.  So, your mileage may vary.  I
do have a lot of confidence in the Lantronix products and customer
support was superb.  

Lee - K0WA
 Ham Radio Operators:  Kansas QSO Party is August 28-29, 2010.  See www.ksqsoparty.org for details

In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. -  J. Wolf






________________________________
From: Tom Azlin N4ZPT <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 11:05:41 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Ethernet serial servers... Re:  USB to serial angst

Hi Don,

Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.

http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html

Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?

73, Tom n4zpt

On 3/15/2010 12:04 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> So show me an Ethernet to serial converter that can live at a device
> location without the need for a computer at the device end and I will
> concede.  A plain Ethernet to serial converter is not that sophisticated
> (unless someone has found one that I have not looked at, or the price
> for the embedded copmuter is excessive).
>
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Matt Zilmer
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Because of the buffering done on the input side, most Enet - Serial
adapters have worse basic transfer rates than USB adapters have.
Datagrams may have only 10-12 characters in the payload.  

Try your unit with PortMon, and you'll see what I mean.

The buffering of single characters also causes some latency issues,
but the K3 is OK with these.  

The effect for remote control is very hard to see, but if you're using
one of these adapters to reload firmware, you WILL see the lower
transfer rate add up to a longer reload time.

I've been using the B&B ES1A on and off for several years with K3 #24.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:13:45 -0400, you wrote:

>Tom,
>
>Those show promise.  Keep us posted on the results of your experiments.
>What about latency?  Does it work with QSK CW?  How to handle the audio
>channel?
>
>To successfully work with existing applications, they would have to be
>addressable as a com port to any computer on the network.
>
>Since those adapters are for industrial applications rather than
>consumer, I would expect them to be less 'flaky'.  That goes for the USB
>to serial adapters for industrial use as well - I noted that NetEon has
>industrial USB to RS-232 adapters too.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR
>
>Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
>> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
>> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
>> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
>> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
>> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
>> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>>
>> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
>> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
>> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>>
>> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>>
>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>  
>>
>______________________________________________________________
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

David Christ
In reply to this post by Tom Azlin N4ZPT
Before I retired I used dozens of Lantronix ETS terminal servers to
control network devices in a nationwide network.  Bulletproof units.
We were able to make serial ports on remote devices look like they
were local.  Actually we were also able to modem into one serial port
and out another.  Great flexibility.  Don't know how LP bridge would
play with one.  Unfortunately they are devilishly expensive when new
and the used ones can command a pretty price as well.  Wish I had a
couple.

David K0LUM

At 12:05 AM -0400 3/16/10, Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:

>Hi Don,
>
>Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
>into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
>server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
>redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
>serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
>end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
>connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>
>http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
>http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
>http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Tom Azlin N4ZPT
In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer
Hi Matt,

Certainly. and not the point.

Seems hard to use the USB adapter when my computer is next to me and the
Ethernet to serial device is across town or across the country.  You can
get Ethernet based USB servers but they have the same latency behavior.
  If you are trying to operate a remote station then a two port serial
server to handle your K3 and your character driven keyer would work,
just I would not expect it to be like sitting in front of the radio. In
particular QSK remote keying might never work too well unless you do not
care about hearing the lag. Or listen with a local receiver. Same issues
folks with the TenTec Omni-VII are experiencing.

I have a pair of the RemoteRig units that I plan to use with my TS-480HX
where I can keep my control head with me where ever I am and use the
radio back at home or at the family cabin. Am hoping it will be OK for
SSB and sound card digi modes. I see they now have the Elecraft K3
listed as supported. http://www.remoterig.com/

I am not using these ethernet serial devices with my K3s but rather with
TNCs or repeater controllers or other serial devices that do not appear
care about delays. Just like I was typing in them direct and paused for
a moment before hitting the return key.  With my K3s I use computers or
laptops with real serial ports or PCMCIA/ExpressCard serial ports that
look and behave just like real serial ports.

73, Tom n4zpt



On 3/16/2010 11:30 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

> Because of the buffering done on the input side, most Enet - Serial
> adapters have worse basic transfer rates than USB adapters have.
> Datagrams may have only 10-12 characters in the payload.
>
> Try your unit with PortMon, and you'll see what I mean.
>
> The buffering of single characters also causes some latency issues,
> but the K3 is OK with these.
>
> The effect for remote control is very hard to see, but if you're using
> one of these adapters to reload firmware, you WILL see the lower
> transfer rate add up to a longer reload time.
>
> I've been using the B&B ES1A on and off for several years with K3 #24.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:13:45 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Those show promise.  Keep us posted on the results of your experiments.
>> What about latency?  Does it work with QSK CW?  How to handle the audio
>> channel?
>>
>> To successfully work with existing applications, they would have to be
>> addressable as a com port to any computer on the network.
>>
>> Since those adapters are for industrial applications rather than
>> consumer, I would expect them to be less 'flaky'.  That goes for the USB
>> to serial adapters for industrial use as well - I noted that NetEon has
>> industrial USB to RS-232 adapters too.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
>>> Hi Don,
>>>
>>> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
>>> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
>>> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
>>> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
>>> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
>>> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
>>> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>>>
>>> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
>>> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
>>> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>>>
>>> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>>>
>>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Matt Zilmer
Hi Tom,

Sorry, maybe I didn't say some of what I should have.  My reasons for
using Ethernet are similar to yours, at least when it comes to the K3.
IP can be routed, where USB and serial (alone) cannot.  This gives us
the option of remote operation, the main goal.  Whether for a K3 or
other devices, the advantages may be the same.  I haven't tinkered
with the RemoteRig yet, but I've been thinking about it.  A complete
"at-least-voice" solution for remoting is my eventual goal.

I agree that remote keying is probably not an option.  I haven't even
bothered trying that...

Was just trying to answer Don's question about latency.  Because of
the buffering, it is more an issue than with USB.  Serial is probably
best of all - a dedicated interface with little overhead.  If I had a
serial port on ANY computer, I'd be using it on the K3.  Instead I use
a four-port Prolific-based USB-Serial adapter for most K3 (and
related) things at home.

73,
matt W6NIA
K3 #24
K2 #2810


On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:52:41 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Matt,
>
>Certainly. and not the point.
>
>Seems hard to use the USB adapter when my computer is next to me and the
>Ethernet to serial device is across town or across the country.  You can
>get Ethernet based USB servers but they have the same latency behavior.
>  If you are trying to operate a remote station then a two port serial
>server to handle your K3 and your character driven keyer would work,
>just I would not expect it to be like sitting in front of the radio. In
>particular QSK remote keying might never work too well unless you do not
>care about hearing the lag. Or listen with a local receiver. Same issues
>folks with the TenTec Omni-VII are experiencing.
>
>I have a pair of the RemoteRig units that I plan to use with my TS-480HX
>where I can keep my control head with me where ever I am and use the
>radio back at home or at the family cabin. Am hoping it will be OK for
>SSB and sound card digi modes. I see they now have the Elecraft K3
>listed as supported. http://www.remoterig.com/
>
>I am not using these ethernet serial devices with my K3s but rather with
>TNCs or repeater controllers or other serial devices that do not appear
>care about delays. Just like I was typing in them direct and paused for
>a moment before hitting the return key.  With my K3s I use computers or
>laptops with real serial ports or PCMCIA/ExpressCard serial ports that
>look and behave just like real serial ports.
>
>73, Tom n4zpt
>
>
>
>On 3/16/2010 11:30 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Because of the buffering done on the input side, most Enet - Serial
>> adapters have worse basic transfer rates than USB adapters have.
>> Datagrams may have only 10-12 characters in the payload.
>>
>> Try your unit with PortMon, and you'll see what I mean.
>>
>> The buffering of single characters also causes some latency issues,
>> but the K3 is OK with these.
>>
>> The effect for remote control is very hard to see, but if you're using
>> one of these adapters to reload firmware, you WILL see the lower
>> transfer rate add up to a longer reload time.
>>
>> I've been using the B&B ES1A on and off for several years with K3 #24.
>>
>> 73,
>> matt W6NIA
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:13:45 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>> Tom,
>>>
>>> Those show promise.  Keep us posted on the results of your experiments.
>>> What about latency?  Does it work with QSK CW?  How to handle the audio
>>> channel?
>>>
>>> To successfully work with existing applications, they would have to be
>>> addressable as a com port to any computer on the network.
>>>
>>> Since those adapters are for industrial applications rather than
>>> consumer, I would expect them to be less 'flaky'.  That goes for the USB
>>> to serial adapters for industrial use as well - I noted that NetEon has
>>> industrial USB to RS-232 adapters too.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
>>>> Hi Don,
>>>>
>>>> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
>>>> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
>>>> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
>>>> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
>>>> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
>>>> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
>>>> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
>>>> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
>>>> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>>>>
>>>> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>>>>
>>>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>______________________________________________________________
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>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Tom Azlin N4ZPT
Hi Matt,

I had the same need for serial ports but discovered I could get
inexpensive PCMCIA serial and parallel port cards that worked exactly
like built in serial ports or the docking adapters that fit my ThinkPad
laptops. So ditched the USB converters.

Once I get to go set up the TS-480 out in Arizona then I will start
getting a feel for the RemoteRig. Then consider it for my K3 here at
home. But as the K3 does not have a removable front panel then would
need a computer on my local end where I do not need that with the TS-480
or the other HF rigs with removable front panels. But this is getting
off of a K3 topic.

Agree completely on latency.  Getting low latency on a remote station
might be too much until we can set the service quality on the entire path.

73, Tom n4zpt

On 3/16/2010 2:32 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> Sorry, maybe I didn't say some of what I should have.  My reasons for
> using Ethernet are similar to yours, at least when it comes to the K3.
> IP can be routed, where USB and serial (alone) cannot.  This gives us
> the option of remote operation, the main goal.  Whether for a K3 or
> other devices, the advantages may be the same.  I haven't tinkered
> with the RemoteRig yet, but I've been thinking about it.  A complete
> "at-least-voice" solution for remoting is my eventual goal.
>
> I agree that remote keying is probably not an option.  I haven't even
> bothered trying that...
>
> Was just trying to answer Don's question about latency.  Because of
> the buffering, it is more an issue than with USB.  Serial is probably
> best of all - a dedicated interface with little overhead.  If I had a
> serial port on ANY computer, I'd be using it on the K3.  Instead I use
> a four-port Prolific-based USB-Serial adapter for most K3 (and
> related) things at home.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
> K3 #24
> K2 #2810
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:52:41 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>> Certainly. and not the point.
>>
>> Seems hard to use the USB adapter when my computer is next to me and the
>> Ethernet to serial device is across town or across the country.  You can
>> get Ethernet based USB servers but they have the same latency behavior.
>>   If you are trying to operate a remote station then a two port serial
>> server to handle your K3 and your character driven keyer would work,
>> just I would not expect it to be like sitting in front of the radio. In
>> particular QSK remote keying might never work too well unless you do not
>> care about hearing the lag. Or listen with a local receiver. Same issues
>> folks with the TenTec Omni-VII are experiencing.
>>
>> I have a pair of the RemoteRig units that I plan to use with my TS-480HX
>> where I can keep my control head with me where ever I am and use the
>> radio back at home or at the family cabin. Am hoping it will be OK for
>> SSB and sound card digi modes. I see they now have the Elecraft K3
>> listed as supported. http://www.remoterig.com/
>>
>> I am not using these ethernet serial devices with my K3s but rather with
>> TNCs or repeater controllers or other serial devices that do not appear
>> care about delays. Just like I was typing in them direct and paused for
>> a moment before hitting the return key.  With my K3s I use computers or
>> laptops with real serial ports or PCMCIA/ExpressCard serial ports that
>> look and behave just like real serial ports.
>>
>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/16/2010 11:30 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>> Because of the buffering done on the input side, most Enet - Serial
>>> adapters have worse basic transfer rates than USB adapters have.
>>> Datagrams may have only 10-12 characters in the payload.
>>>
>>> Try your unit with PortMon, and you'll see what I mean.
>>>
>>> The buffering of single characters also causes some latency issues,
>>> but the K3 is OK with these.
>>>
>>> The effect for remote control is very hard to see, but if you're using
>>> one of these adapters to reload firmware, you WILL see the lower
>>> transfer rate add up to a longer reload time.
>>>
>>> I've been using the B&B ES1A on and off for several years with K3 #24.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> matt W6NIA
>>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:13:45 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom,
>>>>
>>>> Those show promise.  Keep us posted on the results of your experiments.
>>>> What about latency?  Does it work with QSK CW?  How to handle the audio
>>>> channel?
>>>>
>>>> To successfully work with existing applications, they would have to be
>>>> addressable as a com port to any computer on the network.
>>>>
>>>> Since those adapters are for industrial applications rather than
>>>> consumer, I would expect them to be less 'flaky'.  That goes for the USB
>>>> to serial adapters for industrial use as well - I noted that NetEon has
>>>> industrial USB to RS-232 adapters too.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>> Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
>>>>> Hi Don,
>>>>>
>>>>> Several of us are playing with Ethernet hosted serial servers that plug
>>>>> into a router and have a one or more serial connectors. Put the serial
>>>>> server at a remote site like a repeater site with internet then run
>>>>> redirecter software on your local computer. Poof, you have one or more
>>>>> serial ports tunneled across the Internet. No computer needed at the far
>>>>> end. We have two different brands with two serial ports. Planning to
>>>>> connect a TNC and a repeater controller this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.neteon.net/Category/340-3/Serial-to-Ethernet is one
>>>>> http://www.opengear.com/product-acm5000.html
>>>>> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds2100.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this what you mean by a plain Ethernet to serial converter?
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

David Cutter
I imagine latency to be small, possibly negligible if one uses a microwave
link line of sight.  It's a dream I have to put my K3 in a remote spot with
line-of-site control via radio (amateur radio or possibly 2.4GHz
licence-free).  Unfortunately I think there are licensing issues over here
which might prevent it.  Anyone done it with the K3?

David
G3UNA
>

>
> Agree completely on latency.  Getting low latency on a remote station
> might be too much until we can set the service quality on the entire path.
>
> 73, Tom n4zpt
>
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Matt Zilmer
Most networking involves some degree of character-level latency.  In
general, data are arranged in packets (or frames), each of which
contains some number of characters or bytes, as payload.

If data to/from is buffered, it takes time to accumulate enough data
(or to pass enough time) to make it worth the cost to move the packet.
This comes down to buffering, first hop transmission, routing/transit
time, and receiving the packet, then passing back up the stack to the
waiting application or device.  There is more to it, but that's the
basic idea.  Most serial <=> Ethernet connections work like this.

Serial has transit time, plus send/receive processing time, but there
is less buffering since each character is handled independently of
those that follow.  This is true for point to point links like RS232.

USB is similar to networking, but without the routing.  And transit
times are usually quite a bit shorter.  It depends on the USB topology
and a few other things.  But a single hop USB-style could be
significantly shorter than TCP/IP over Ethernet, even 100BaseT.  The
differences are overheads associated with each type of medium and
network configuration / topology.  If a packet enters the "cloud"
(Internet) there is no simple way to predict how soon it will squirt
out at at the destination.

There are more issues than the above, but didn't want to put everyone
to sleep.  And I'm no authority - I'm sure others will add to the mix.
But please don't flame me on this.  I didn't invent TCP/IP or the
Ethernet medium....  :)  Or OC-48, Frame Relay, ATM, Sonet, etc.

73,
matt W6NIA
K3 #24



On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:02:41 +0000, you wrote:

>I imagine latency to be small, possibly negligible if one uses a microwave
>link line of sight.  It's a dream I have to put my K3 in a remote spot with
>line-of-site control via radio (amateur radio or possibly 2.4GHz
>licence-free).  Unfortunately I think there are licensing issues over here
>which might prevent it.  Anyone done it with the K3?
>
>David
>G3UNA
>>
>
>>
>> Agree completely on latency.  Getting low latency on a remote station
>> might be too much until we can set the service quality on the entire path.
>>
>> 73, Tom n4zpt
>>
>______________________________________________________________
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Re: Ethernet serial servers... Re: USB to serial angst

Guy, K2AV
These strings of posts (quite a few on serial vs. USB vs. <x>) has
been well worth reading.  This is the kind of stuff always hope will
find in the posts.  It's helping me and some others make some
decisions on how to move forward.  Thanks, all.   73, Guy.

> There are more issues than the above, but didn't want to put everyone
> to sleep.  And I'm no authority - I'm sure others will add to the mix.
> But please don't flame me on this.  I didn't invent TCP/IP or the
> Ethernet medium....  :)  Or OC-48, Frame Relay, ATM, Sonet, etc.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
> K3 #24
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