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Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

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stengrevics

Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an uninterruptible power supply (UPS). Does anyone have any experience doing this? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

My apologies if this has been previously discussed. Please do provide a link if it has.

73,

John
WA1EAZ

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

The "UPS" for my K3 consists of an Astron RS35 linear powersupply driving a West Mountain Radio Super PWRgate PG40Sto a 105Ah AGM SLA battery. Power to the K3 comes from aWMR RigRunner 4012 that's plugged into the PG40S. Very quiet,and can be deployed fairly quickly.
73 de N1HO

Stengrevics wrote:

To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS). Does anyone have any experience doing
this? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by stengrevics

On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:
> To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
> uninterruptible power supply (UPS).

Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by a
defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by power
wiring close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is like
any other RF signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive it. It is
VERY unlikely to be conducted into our equipment via our own power wiring.

Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.

Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much of
the noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment of
all sorts.

Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Barry K3NDM

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by stengrevics

John,
You can use any UPS that will protect your computer. I got mine at
Stables. It was the least expensive that they had on sale. They're all
pretty much the same, a battery, battery charger and a 12 volt to 117 AC
inverter. Some do have computer interfaces for protecting servers, but
you really don't need that feature. The size of the battery determines
how long you can stay up without power. You only need enough power for a
few minutes as you are using the battery as a buffer for noise and
voltage spikes from lightning strikes and motors turning on and off.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "stengrevics" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 7/11/2016 2:36:33 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

>To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
>uninterruptible power supply (UPS). Does anyone have any experience
>doing
>this? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the
>K3S?
>
>My apologies if this has been previously discussed. Please do provide
>a
>link if it has.
>
>73,
>
>John
>WA1EAZ
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-for-K3S-tp7619939.html
>Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

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stengrevics

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Thanks to all for the comments.

Not being familiar with these things, I thought the UPS could be use for a protracted period of time.

Jim - I’ve been through the exercise of turning off every breaker in the house except the one that supplies power to the shack. I then unplugged everything in the shack except the K3S and rotor control box and turned off the lights. I still had the noise.

Bonding didn’t do anything - I only have the K3S, speaker and a rotor control box.

I’ve got ferrites out the gazoo!

I live in an area with 2-acre zoning and no commercial establishment wishing a couple of miles.

So, I’m at a loss. Maybe atmospheric noise?

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:
>> To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
>> uninterruptible power supply (UPS).
>
>
> Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by a defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by power wiring close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is like any other RF signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive it. It is VERY unlikely to be conducted into our equipment via our own power wiring.
>
> Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.
>
> Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much of the noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment of all sorts.
>
> Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Barry K3NDM

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

John,
You can use an UPS for a protracted period. My whole shack is
buffered on the one cheap UPS I bought at Staples. I suspect that the
size of the battery will only allow for about 10-15 minutes of operating
after I lose power. But, it's on continuously.

From your description of your situation I would guess there are
just a few possibilities, arcing from a power line that is within radio
line of sight to your antenna, someone may have an electric fence to
control animals, a compressor/air handler controler. or one of your
neighbors is doing some arc welding. You can eliminate atmospheric noise
if it is steady and doesn't vary like lightning crashes; this time of
the year there is a lot of atmospheric noise, but it bounces around in
amplitude.

If you have a 2 meter rig that can tune down in the aircraft
frequencies, tune it to a dead spot between 113-136 MHz. You will be in
AM mode. Turn off the squelch and ride around and see if you can find
the source of some noise. It could be a few miles away from your antenna
depending on how high your antenna is.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Stengrevics" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: 7/11/2016 3:38:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

>Thanks to all for the comments.
>
>Not being familiar with these things, I thought the UPS could be use
>for a protracted period of time.
>
>Jim - I’ve been through the exercise of turning off every breaker in
>the house except the one that supplies power to the shack. I then
>unplugged everything in the shack except the K3S and rotor control box
>and turned off the lights. I still had the noise.
>
>Bonding didn’t do anything - I only have the K3S, speaker and a rotor
>control box.
>
>I’ve got ferrites out the gazoo!
>
>I live in an area with 2-acre zoning and no commercial establishment
>wishing a couple of miles.
>
>So, I’m at a loss. Maybe atmospheric noise?
>
>John
>WA1EAZ
>
>
>> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:
>>> To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
>>> uninterruptible power supply (UPS).
>>
>>
>> Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by
>>a defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by
>>power wiring close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is
>>like any other RF signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive
>>it. It is VERY unlikely to be conducted into our equipment via our own
>>power wiring.
>>
>> Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.
>>
>> Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much
>>of the noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment
>>of all sorts.
>>
>> Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Gerald Finn

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by stengrevics

In response to Stengrevics : To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).? Does anyone have any experience doing
this?? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

For my Elecraft K3S/P3 I am using an Astron RS35M power supply which feeds a West Mountain DC-to-Go with attached Radio Power Gate PG40S and RigRunner 4007U. My battery is a 79 amp hour AGM. I live on an island and at stormy times of the year, we experience power losses and multiple short hits. This combination has been quite satisfactory.
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Mike K8CN

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

In reply to this post by stengrevics

John,

Power line arc noise can happen anywhere, even in a semi-rural area like your neighborhood (I used to live in Acton MA). There are many web resources for learning how to identify and track down power line arc sources. Here are some things I've learned by hard experience.

A good, though not infallible, indication of a power line arc source for your noise is to check the bands during or shortly after a rain storm. Most arc sources are quenched temporarily by rain if they're exposed to the elements. When I first began tracking down noise sources at my QTH several years ago, I found that keeping a log of baseline noise levels (using the S-meter indication with the K3 in AM mode, widest filter you have) on all bands versus time of day and weather conditions was helpful in establishing any correlation with precipitation or neighbors' activities. I would also add comments about the qualitative audio signature of the noise ("buzz", "raspy", "intermittent buzz" - you get the idea).

Simple preliminary source location techniques (once you've eliminated anything in your own home or yard) include using the AM radio in your car on a careful drive around your neighborhood to find candidate sources. This is not particularly selective - you'll hear other interferers in addition to true arc sources, and you'll want to tune to an unoccupied AM channel - I use channels high in the AM broadcast band.

My preferred method once I've identified some candidate arc source sites is to use an inexpensive handheld VHF/UHF scanner with a rubber-duck antenna and a switchable attenuator. You don't need a fancy lab-grade attenuator - I find that a home-made 6 dB or 20 dB fixed resistor attenuator (50 ohm, shielded box) is sufficient. I tune the scanner to an open channel in the aircraft band (around 135 MHz; it automatically switches to AM detection in that band, which is necessary to do direction-finding based on signal strength - FM detection won't work), and walk around the suspect site. Turn off the squelch completely and set the audio gain at a fixed, comfortable listening level (I use open-ear headphones for safety as I walk on roads).

I hold the rubber-duck antenna in the horizontal orientation and sweep it in an arc to either side of my body. The rubber-duck has a pattern null off the ends, and the reduction in audible noise is very evident if you're close to the arc source. You can resolve the 180 degree direction ambiguity of the null by using your body as an additional shielding attenuator - the difference in audio levels is your clue as to which null direction is the true one. You will find that you'll need to insert one of the fixed attenuators between the rubber-duck and the scanner antenna port if you're very close to the arc source - otherwise it will be difficult to perceive a null. I've used this technique successfully to locate multiple arc sources in my own neighborhood over the past few years. The one drawback is that one cannot hear the arc noise at VHF if one is more than a couple hundred yards from the arc source unless you use a small handheld Yagi antenna. It's easy to make a 3 element Yagi for VHF - there are several simple, inexpensive designs out there to be found.

As Jim, K9YC will likely point out, you may also be hearing switch-mode power converters that have a much different noise signature than arc noise. If you can borrow a P3 panadapter from a nearby friend, it is an excellent tool for distinguishing types of noise. There are many other RF noise emitters - look at the archives of the Elecraft forum for some examples - the list of offending devices is too long to include here.

One can, of course, purchase commercial DF'ing units that offer more features. However, you may already have the basic DF'ing tools in hand, or you may borrow them from a local ham until you find that you have a recurring need for this set of tools.

It's likely that your local electric utility has a person trained in finding arc noise sources, but they love it when you can identify the specific pole on which you have found the likely source!

73,
Mike, K8CN
Durham NH

stengrevics

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

Thanks to all for your very helpful comments & suggestions.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jul 11, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Mike K8CN <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Power line arc noise can happen anywhere, even in a semi-rural area like
> your neighborhood (I used to live in Acton MA). There are many web
> resources for learning how to identify and track down power line arc
> sources. Here are some things I've learned by hard experience.
>
> A good, though not infallible, indication of a power line arc source for
> your noise is to check the bands during or shortly after a rain storm. Most
> arc sources are quenched temporarily by rain if they're exposed to the
> elements. When I first began tracking down noise sources at my QTH several
> years ago, I found that keeping a log of baseline noise levels (using the
> S-meter indication with the K3 in AM mode, widest filter you have) on all
> bands versus time of day and weather conditions was helpful in establishing
> any correlation with precipitation or neighbors' activities. I would also
> add comments about the qualitative audio signature of the noise ("buzz",
> "raspy", "intermittent buzz" - you get the idea).
>
> Simple preliminary source location techniques (once you've eliminated
> anything in your own home or yard) include using the AM radio in your car on
> a careful drive around your neighborhood to find candidate sources. This is
> not particularly selective - you'll hear other interferers in addition to
> true arc sources, and you'll want to tune to an unoccupied AM channel - I
> use channels high in the AM broadcast band.
>
> My preferred method once I've identified some candidate arc source sites is
> to use an inexpensive handheld VHF/UHF scanner with a rubber-duck antenna
> and a switchable attenuator. You don't need a fancy lab-grade attenuator -
> I find that a home-made 6 dB or 20 dB fixed resistor attenuator (50 ohm,
> shielded box) is sufficient. I tune the scanner to an open channel in the
> aircraft band (around 135 MHz; it automatically switches to AM detection in
> that band, which is necessary to do direction-finding based on signal
> strength - FM detection won't work), and walk around the suspect site. Turn
> off the squelch completely and set the audio gain at a fixed, comfortable
> listening level (I use open-ear headphones for safety as I walk on roads).
>
> I hold the rubber-duck antenna in the horizontal orientation and sweep it in
> an arc to either side of my body. The rubber-duck has a pattern null off
> the ends, and the reduction in audible noise is very evident if you're close
> to the arc source. You can resolve the 180 degree direction ambiguity of
> the null by using your body as an additional shielding attenuator - the
> difference in audio levels is your clue as to which null direction is the
> true one. You will find that you'll need to insert one of the fixed
> attenuators between the rubber-duck and the scanner antenna port if you're
> very close to the arc source - otherwise it will be difficult to perceive a
> null. I've used this technique successfully to locate multiple arc sources
> in my own neighborhood over the past few years. The one drawback is that one
> cannot hear the arc noise at VHF if one is more than a couple hundred yards
> from the arc source unless you use a small handheld Yagi antenna. It's easy
> to make a 3 element Yagi for VHF - there are several simple, inexpensive
> designs out there to be found.
>
> As Jim, K9YC will likely point out, you may also be hearing switch-mode
> power converters that have a much different noise signature than arc noise.
> If you can borrow a P3 panadapter from a nearby friend, it is an excellent
> tool for distinguishing types of noise. There are many other RF noise
> emitters - look at the archives of the Elecraft forum for some examples -
> the list of offending devices is too long to include here.
>
> One can, of course, purchase commercial DF'ing units that offer more
> features. However, you may already have the basic DF'ing tools in hand, or
> you may borrow them from a local ham until you find that you have a
> recurring need for this set of tools.
>
> It's likely that your local electric utility has a person trained in finding
> arc noise sources, but they love it when you can identify the specific pole
> on which you have found the likely source!
>
> 73,
> Mike, K8CN
> Durham NH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-for-K3S-tp7619939p7619959.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob Nielsen-4

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by Gerald Finn

I also live on an island and we too have several outages a year (which
can last from seconds to days). Most are caused by branches blown down
by wind, hitting and breaking the power lines (it is slowly getting
better as Puget Sound Energy has proactively been trimming trees before
they break). I have four UPS devices in various parts of my house. The
shack and my home computers and DVRs are connected to 1000VA TrippLite
UPSs I bought at Costco several years ago and these also protect against
surges. I don't try to operate an amp when the power goes out, but have
run 100 watt radios barefoot for several minutes. The batteries in my
systems probably need replacing and when I do that I will try to silence
the darn beep that they make (I can tell when there is an outage without
hearing that noise). I will also look into setting up a 12V system like
you described.

73,
Bob, N7XY

On 7/11/16 2:14 PM, Gerald Finn wrote:

> In response to Stengrevics : To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
> uninterruptible power supply (UPS).? Does anyone have any experience doing
> this?? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?
>
> For my Elecraft K3S/P3 I am using an Astron RS35M power supply which feeds a West Mountain DC-to-Go with attached Radio Power Gate PG40S and RigRunner 4007U. My battery is a 79 amp hour AGM. I live on an island and at stormy times of the year, we experience power losses and multiple short hits. This combination has been quite satisfactory.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim - N4ST

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

In reply to this post by stengrevics

I live in a rural area and the last mile of power lines were put in just for
my house.
I had a dead tree limb fall and hook across the power lines and when it got
wet, it would arc and create horrendous electrical noise.
I called the power company several times to come out and remove the limb but
they didn't respond.
I finally sent them an email saying that I would take care of it myself,
because if I stood on the cab of my pickup I might be able to knock the limb
off with a long stick.
If that didn't work, I would shoot it off.
They came the next morning and removed the limb.

_________________
73,
Jim - N4ST

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John
Stengrevics
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 17:44
To: Mike K8CN <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc
noise)

Thanks to all for your very helpful comments & suggestions.

John
WA1EAZ

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Richard Fjeld-2

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by stengrevics

John,
I haven't read all the replies yet. I'm sure you will get a variety of
responses, such as mine.

About 40 years ago when color TV's were more expensive, my neighborhood
got a momentary hit in the power, and it came back with a voltage spike
that took out too many TV's to count. To prevent that from happening to
my ham gear, I made a box with multiple outlets all switched by one
relay that locks up through it's own contacts. I have momentary push
button switches to operate, or release, the relay. Should the power
take a momentary hit, the relay drops and opens the AC line to my
equipment. If the power comes back with a voltage spike, my equipment
doesn't see it. (This may result in a discussion about MOV's) I have a
100 watt station.

I prefer to float a battery across my 12 volt line to allow me to
properly shut down my equipment should the power go out. I have had
several qso's with people who use 12 V battery power exclusively. Some
live where there is no power grid.

Also, I have a UPS that powers a lamp at my operating position so that I
can see to power down my equipment. I hope to eliminate this with a
good 12 Volt LED lamp when I find one.

Dick, n0ce

On 7/11/2016 1:36 PM, stengrevics wrote:

> To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
> uninterruptible power supply (UPS). Does anyone have any experience doing
> this? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?
>
> My apologies if this has been previously discussed. Please do provide a
> link if it has.
>
> 73,
>
> John
> WA1EAZ
>
>
>
>

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

In reply to this post by Bob Nielsen-4

On 7/11/2016 3:41 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> The batteries in my systems probably need replacing.
UPSes typically use some form of VRLA battery. With computers, they're
really to bridge short outages or allow a computer to gracefully shut
down, and the designers assume that power outages are somewhat rare.

If you want these batteries to last, you try to keep the continuous draw
near or below the ten hour rate -- same as the charging rate. In other
words, the UPS should last 10 hours with a normal load.

Instead, most last about 15 minutes, and after a few cycles, the
batteries are fried.

I've removed the internal batteries and replaced them with much larger
VRLA batteries, often at less than APC or Tripp wants for "proper"
replacements.

Be sure to use fuses and protect the terminals so you don't hit them
with something metal accidentally.

VRLA batteries can safely be used indoors. A big hint is that most of
these are "UPS shippable."

73 -- Lynn

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