Unplugging the radio to protect it

[Peter Pauly]

I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
IN.

My questions for you guys and gals are:
Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
situation?

Peter
W0VLL
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[ae4pb]

Do I disconnect every cable? No, just Coax at the radio and power strip from
the wall (which disconnects all else). The ONLY connection I don't have the
ability to easily disconnect (which I'm trying to figure out) is station
ground.

To date I've never lost a piece of my station gear and we get LOTS of
lightning storms. Most of my experience is from the past when I had a tower.

Your experience with Kenwood is one of the MAJOR reasons I went with
Elecraft. Every other manufacturer I've dealt with or heard about only wants
to sell you product with minimal support and seem to go out of their way to
make it difficult for you to get anything under warranty.


Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.




-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Pauly
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Unplugging the radio to protect it

I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
IN.

My questions for you guys and gals are:
Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
situation?

Peter
W0VLL
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[Vic Rosenthal]

Very few hams, if any, disconnect EVERY cable from their rig when it is
not in use. Having said that, it's certainly a good idea to have a
common grounded entry point with suppression devices for power, antenna,
phone, cable, etc. so there won't be potential differences between
equipment in the event of nearby lightning.

But in my opinion, making total disconnection of the equipment a
condition for warranty repairs is a statement that they don't take the
warranty seriously.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 8 Oct 2015 16:46, Peter Pauly wrote:

> I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
> Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
> warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
> when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
> key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
> only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
> have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
> to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
> IN.
>
> My questions for you guys and gals are:
> Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
> Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
> use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
> situation?
>
> Peter
> W0VLL

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[Mel]

I would suggest you read the manual and the warranty statement. I don't think you will find a disclaimer about removing all cables from the radio when not in use.
Mel, K6KBE


      From: Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 7:10 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Unplugging the radio to protect it
   
Very few hams, if any, disconnect EVERY cable from their rig when it is
not in use. Having said that, it's certainly a good idea to have a
common grounded entry point with suppression devices for power, antenna,
phone, cable, etc. so there won't be potential differences between
equipment in the event of nearby lightning.

But in my opinion, making total disconnection of the equipment a
condition for warranty repairs is a statement that they don't take the
warranty seriously.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 8 Oct 2015 16:46, Peter Pauly wrote:

> I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
> Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
> warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
> when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
> key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
> only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
> have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
> to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
> IN.
>
> My questions for you guys and gals are:
> Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
> Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
> use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
> situation?
>
> Peter
> W0VLL

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[Matt Zilmer-3]

It is not normal to completely disconnect a piece of station equipment
like a transceiver when it's not in use.  Some disconnect the antenna,
but I don't.  I've had K3 #24 since 2007, and the only time I worry
about disconnecting is if there is convective weather activity like
thunder or lightning.  If there is a sign of this, I disconnect all
cables from the K3 until the storm passes.

Having been an Elecraft customer since 2003 (K2 days), I never heard
of the company behaving in this manner towards a customer.  Elecraft
is more likely to bend over backwards to satisfy your needs rather
than offer up excuses.  Customer support and service is one of the
major reasons Elecraft has done so well in the Amateur market.  The
other primary cause of their success is the quality and performance of
their products.

73,
matt
W6NIA

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:46:37 -0400, you wrote:

>I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
>Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
>warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
>when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
>key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
>only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
>have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
>to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
>IN.
>
>My questions for you guys and gals are:
>Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
>Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
>use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
>situation?
>
>Peter
>W0VLL
>______________________________________________________________
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>
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>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
--
"Always store beer in a dark place."  -R. Heinlein

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[Robert Nobis - N7RJN]

Peter,

When I am away from home, I disconnect all antennas and unplug my power strip. When home I leave everything connected 24/7, except when there is a storm or threat of a storm. Then I disconnect antennas and my mains power strip.

If that is Kenwood’s approach to customer service, I am glad I do not own any of their equipment.  

73,


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
[hidden email]

> On Oct 8, 2015, at 06:46, Peter Pauly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
> Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
> warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
> when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
> key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked, so
> only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said they
> have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience prompted me
> to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere between CA and
> IN.
>
> My questions for you guys and gals are:
> Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
> Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
> use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
> situation?
>
> Peter
> W0VLL
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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[Bayard Coolidge, N1HO]

No, I don't disconnect *every cable, usually just the antenna coax as itenters the shack (which, in NC, is in the basement and a coax feed-throughcomes through a concrete block and brick wall, and the disconnect pointis at the wall, 4-5m from the equipment). All equipment (except handhelds)is properly grounded, as discussed thoroughly on this list recently, and fused.
I'm wondering if this "policy" of Kenwood's applies just to their amateurradio market or to all of their two-way radio market, and if it's spelled out intheir warranty verbiage, or are they hiding behind the skirts of "we'll use OURdiscretion in deciding whether to fix something under warranty or not". Frankly,I think it's hilarious to think they'd expect boaters, emergency services personnel,much less small business owners, farmers, construction workers, and the like,to disconnect every cable on their equipment when not in use. 
From what I've seen, Amateur Radio is but a small segment of their overallbusiness, even just their two-way radio business, never mind consumerelectronics, etc. OTOH, it also sounds like they have a particular design issuethat they need to address so as to preserve what's left of their reputation.
Just my 20 millidollars' worth,
N1HO



On 8 Oct 2015 16:46, Peter Pauly wrote:

> Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
> Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us? 
_______
 
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[Al Gulseth-2]

Maybe they're relying on one of the sublaws in "The Contributions of Edsel
Murphy to the Understanding of the Behavior of Inanimate Objects":

"  II. 3. All warranty and guarantee clauses become void upon payment of
invoice."

That being said, I think one of the factors in Elecraft's success is that
unlike some other companies Elecraft _actually understands_ the meaning of
the words "customer service."

73, Al

On Thu October 8 2015 9:23:45 am Mel Farrer wrote:

> I would suggest you read the manual and the warranty statement. I don't
> think you will find a disclaimer about removing all cables from the radio
> when not in use. Mel, K6KBE
>
>
>       From: Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]>
>  To: [hidden email]
>  Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 7:10 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Unplugging the radio to protect it
>
> Very few hams, if any, disconnect EVERY cable from their rig when it is
> not in use. Having said that, it's certainly a good idea to have a
> common grounded entry point with suppression devices for power, antenna,
> phone, cable, etc. so there won't be potential differences between
> equipment in the event of nearby lightning.
>
> But in my opinion, making total disconnection of the equipment a
> condition for warranty repairs is a statement that they don't take the
> warranty seriously.
>
> 73,
> Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
> Rehovot, Israel
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> On 8 Oct 2015 16:46, Peter Pauly wrote:
> > I had an experience a couple weeks ago where the USB audio chip in my
> > Kenwood stopped working. Kenwood service refused to fix the problem under
> > warranty and blamed me for not unplugging every single cable to the radio
> > when not in use. I had only disconnected the antenna. Not the power, USB,
> > key, etc. No other equipment was affected and the USB CAT still worked,
> > so only one chip stopped working. The Kenwood service center even said
> > they have had tons of people with the same problem. That experience
> > prompted me to order a K3S and it's currently in a UPS truck somewhere
> > between CA and IN.
> >
> > My questions for you guys and gals are:
> > Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
> > Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the K3S
> > use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
> > situation?
> >
> > Peter
> > W0VLL
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
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[Pierfrancesco Caci]

On 8 October 2015 15:46:37 CEST, Peter Pauly <[hidden email]> wrote:
.

>
>My questions for you guys and gals are:
>Do you disconnect every cable when the radio is not in use?  What are
>Elecraft's expectations or recommendations to us?  What chip does the
>K3S
>use for USB audio?  How would Elecraft, the company, have handled this
>situation?
>
>Peter
>W0VLL
>______________________________________________________________
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Like many others in this thread, I disconnect only the antennas.

I once lost a Cisco aironet wireless access point during a thunderstorm because the wired Ethernet cable feeding it acted as antenna for a natural EMP.
I guess your case is similar.

Proper bonding should help reduce the risk, according to the sages of this group :)

Pf
--
Pierfrancesco Caci

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[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

Having done warranty work for Kenwood, both on commercial and amateur
products, they are very "fussy" about warranty policy.  From experience,
every "I" and every "T" must be dotted and crossed, otherwise they most
likely will reject a warranty claim.  Now, there are others, such as
myself, being independent dealers or service providers that can make
individual exceptions to the practice/rule and in effect slide things
under the wire.

Yes, from my take, the amateur market is a a very small part of their
business.   In other words, so small that if it went away, someone would
likely do without lunch for one day...........that's all.

Being retired, I no longer do any service work for any JA company or
organization.  In most cases, I have a "bad taste in my mouth" for their
business practice.  And to close, I spent 15 years of my professional
career working in upper management for a major JA company.

If one's system is properly designed and installed and maintained, there
is no valid reason to disconnect anything, anytime.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 10/8/2015 10:10 AM, Bayard Coolidge, N1HO wrote:
> No, I don't disconnect *every cable, usually just the antenna coax as itenters the shack (which, in NC, is in the basement and a coax feed-throughcomes through a concrete block and brick wall, and the disconnect pointis at the wall, 4-5m from the equipment). All equipment (except handhelds)is properly grounded, as discussed thoroughly on this list recently, and fused.
> I'm wondering if this "policy" of Kenwood's applies just to their amateurradio market or to all of their two-way radio market, and if it's spelled out intheir warranty verbiage, or are they hiding behind the skirts of "we'll use OURdiscretion in deciding whether to fix something under warranty or not". Frankly,I think it's hilarious to think they'd expect boaters, emergency services personnel,much less small business owners, farmers, construction workers, and the like,to disconnect every cable on their equipment when not in use.
>  From what I've seen, Amateur Radio is but a small segment of their overallbusiness, even just their two-way radio business, never mind consumerelectronics, etc. OTOH, it also sounds like they have a particular design issuethat they need to address so as to preserve what's left of their reputation.
> Just my 20 millidollars' worth,
> N1HO


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[Doug Ellmore Sr.]

I had damaged TWO FT-1000D rigs in 2001 from lightening.

Both rigs were disconnected from the antenna.  Both rigs were unplugged
from everything EXCEPT from the ground bus and serial connector to the PC.
The pc was disconnected from everything EXCEPT the modem.

When the lightening hit my 40' Rohn 25 tower twice within a couple of
minutes, the path was  modem card in PC to rig ground.  The tower and house
were properly grounded.

Yaesu confirmed damaged was in the serial interface.

Thank goodness I don't have dial-up internet.  But, watch your other
opportunities for paths to ground.

73 NA1DX

--
Doug Ellmore
[hidden email]
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[Bill Steffey NY9H]

ALL the Ham stuff  K system/ big icom survived a near strike...
   the antennas are disconnected at the garage entrance , where 4 10'
rods are ...

the stuff came in the phone line, into a phone ....poof  across the
phone guts to the other line ..magicjack....poof... into the router  poof...
nic card on the raid drive, main cpu MB, new 42" TV set ( now only wifi)
solar array controller   poof poof poof  ( now getting expensive) ....
control circuits in two 5KW solar inverters.$$$$$$$  hello insurance company.

now have separate phone on the magicjack,,, and a large bank of surge(MOVs)
on the phone line from verizon.  and i disconnect  all hdmi pwr &
coax from the TV in a storm.

Joys of living on a hill ....   can't flood

bill

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[Elecraft K3]

Hmm, this thread has got me wondering if a fiber optics telecom/tv/internet link provides some degree of protection against distant lightning strikes.

Seems like it should.

73 de Eric, KG6MZS
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Folks - We're exceeding the single topic short term posting limit. Lightning
protection in the shack is a recurring topic on the list and can easily be
searched for in the Nabble archives at elecraft.com/elist.html

Let's close the thread for now in the interest of relieving list email overload.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 10/8/2015 9:40 AM, bill NY9H wrote:
> ALL the Ham stuff  K system/ big icom survived a near strike...
>   the antennas are disconnected at the garage entrance , where 4 10' rods are ...

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[Gary Smith-2]

In 1980 I bought a then new Kenwood 820S
which had myriad issues. Looked inside
after a week and almost every solder joint
on the boards were cold soldered.
Contacted kenwood and they said they no
longer dealt with the dealer I bought from
and they would not honour the warranty.

I asked a Japanese friend if she would
translate a letter to Kenwood in Japan, I
sent that to their headquarters and never
heard back.

I never bought a Kenwood anything again,
went TenTec. Now I only use Elecraft and
my old early 90's Alpha.

73,

Gary
KA1J
> Having done warranty work for Kenwood, both on commercial and amateur
> products, they are very "fussy" about
warranty policy.  
<snip>

---
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[Phil Hystad-3]

> Folks - We're exceeding the single topic short term posting limit. Lightning protection in the shack is a recurring topic on the list and can easily be searched for in the Nabble archives at elecraft.com/elist.html
>
> Let's close the thread for now in the interest of relieving list email overload.
> 73,
> Eric
> /elecraft.com/


And, here I was just finishing up a 3000-word missive on the excellent unplugging methods I have employed.  OK, I deleted it.  I won’t add to the Elecraft list background noise except for this anti-missive.

73, phil, K7PEH


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[Bill Blomgren (kk4qdz)]

 off list.... because it isn't on topic.
An old retired friend worked in Telcom for decades (including the shore station that AT&T had in Florida to connect to their subscribers in the Caribbean...
He mentioned that the really LONG underground fiber links across the country (down 6-8 feet) attract lightning like crazy.. where lightning is hunting for the steel wire down the middle of the bundle that is used to find the line if there is a problem.
Well, lightning finds it a LOT.. and causes a whole bunch of HOT in one spot that typically microshatters bout 1/2 mile of fiber in each direction.. or at least used to.
no idea if the ZOT! on the steel wire damaged equipment at either end.. but it was a big problem.


.
KK4QDZ - Now with Extra Class Priv's, and a tiny KX3 to enjoy them!
      From: Elecraft K3 <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Unplugging the radio to protect it
   
Hmm, this thread has got me wondering if a fiber optics telecom/tv/internet link provides some degree of protection against distant lightning strikes.

Seems like it should.

73 de Eric, KG6MZS


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[John K9UWA-2]

With three towers top is at 170 feet above ground level. Tallest trees are
about 80 feet. We do get HIT lots of times per year. I unplug NOTHING.

HOWEVER every wire and anything that is metal that comes and goes from
our house is protected by a Polyphaser Protective device. Buried in the yard
at 100 ground rods. Each one is 8 feet. Spaced at 16 foot intervals as a
Triangle between the three towers plus radial strips outward from the towers
to at least 1/3rd the total height. Plus perimeter ground around the house. As
you have seen leave just one little wire someplace that isn't protected and
POOF as they say damage to lots of things can happen.

Consider the today many Ham Stations are remotely operated as is my
station. No way to disconnect and reconnect. So it is either fix the stuff so it
doesn't blow up or else deal with the consequences.

If you haven't already seen it this is a video a friend took at my place a week
or so ago when we installed a new Low Band Receiving antenna.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXvRrummVFY

John k9uwa
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
Antique Radio Restorations
[hidden email]
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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[Pierfrancesco Caci]

>>>>> "Elecraft" == Elecraft K3 <[hidden email]> writes:


    Elecraft> Hmm, this thread has got me wondering if a fiber optics
    Elecraft> telecom/tv/internet link provides some degree of
    Elecraft> protection against distant lightning strikes.
    Elecraft> Seems like it should.

Yes, but the problem is your internal wiring. Even if you invest in a
switch with optical ports (they come cheap on the used market), and you
put an optical port in your main desktop PC, there are a lot of devices
that only have copper. What killed my access point was a ligthning strike at
some distance coupling to a ~4 m long ethernet cable connecting the AP
to the switch.

Incidentally, fiber would help get rid of those nice carriers polluting
12 and 10 m.

Pf

--
Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
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[Eric Ross-3]

On my computer equipment, including routers/switches, I have become a
very strong advocate of putting a full UPS between the wall and the
device.   When I say full UPS I mean one that is always sourcing the
device from the battery and not directly being fed from the primary
source.  The drawback of this is that they use a step-wise approximation
of AC on the output.   I haven't tried it directly with my K3 to see
what noise gets through, but my computer, which is right next to it  is
not emitting anything worth noting.  This way both power and network are
relatively protected coming into my computers.  I don't have any phone
lines connected to the computers either.  All my voice via the computer
is through the network.  The only route into the K3 is then the primary
power supply and the antenna.  I have also plan to put a battery between
the power supply and the radio just for backup power needs as well which
will then narrow it down to the antenna as the primary energy source.

Eric
kb7td


On Thu, Oct 8, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Eric Ross wrote:

> On my computer equipment, including routers/switches, I have become a
> very strong advocate of putting a full UPS between the wall and the
> device.
> When I say full UPS I mean one that is always sourcing the device from
> the battery and not directly being fed from the primary source.  The
> drawback
> of this is that they use a step-wise approximation of AC on the output.
> I haven't tried it directly with my K3 to see what noise gets
> through, but my computer, which is right next to it  is not emitting
> anything worth noting.  This way both power and network are relatively
> protected coming into my computers.  I don't have any phone lines
> connected to the computers either.  All my voice via the computer is
> through the network.  The only route into the K3 is then the primary
> power supply
> and the antenna.  I have also plan to put a battery between the power
> supply and
> the radio just for backup power needs as well which will then narrow it
> down to the antenna as the primary energy source.
>
> Eric
> kb7td
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Pierfrancesco Caci wrote:
> > >>>>> "Elecraft" == Elecraft K3 <[hidden email]> writes:
> >
> >
> >     Elecraft> Hmm, this thread has got me wondering if a fiber optics
> >     Elecraft> telecom/tv/internet link provides some degree of
> >     Elecraft> protection against distant lightning strikes.
> >     Elecraft> Seems like it should.
> >
> > Yes, but the problem is your internal wiring. Even if you invest in a
> > switch with optical ports (they come cheap on the used market), and you
> > put an optical port in your main desktop PC, there are a lot of devices
> > that only have copper. What killed my access point was a ligthning strike
> > at
> > some distance coupling to a ~4 m long ethernet cable connecting the AP
> > to the switch.
> >
> > Incidentally, fiber would help get rid of those nice carriers polluting
> > 12 and 10 m.
> >
> > Pf
> >
> > --
> > Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> --
>   Eric Ross

--
Eric
kb7td
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