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Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

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Edward A. Dauer

Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

A week or two ago I posted this question: Would it be possible to have
the P3's SVGA output displayed on the screen of a MacAir computer, and
have a logging program resident on the same computer, and be able to
toggle between the two with a simple computer keyboard stroke? Neat trick
for contesting if there's no room for dual monitors, eh?

The simple answer (but see below) turns out to be no - with some dongling
older Macs could operate as "dumb" monitors but newer ones (like my
MacAir) cannot, a fact I had confirmed by a tech at the local Apple store.
I was told that only the 27" monitor (too big for my space) might be able
to do that, and maybe it couldn't either.

I was referred by a member of this reflector (thank you) to a
computer-consultant friend of his, from whom I learned that there was no
direct way to do it but that it could be done if the P3's SVGA output
could be made into the electronic equivalent of an Internet web site.
Moreover, he said, that should be possible using something called
"Raspberry Pi."

Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?

If it turns out to be patentable I'm willing to share the royalties . . .

Ted, KN1CBR

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k6dgw

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

I don't know what a MacAir is, I've pretty much managed to avoid the
iWorld. I can tell you about the Raspberry Pi [and others] however.

Raspberry Pi [and Beagle Bone, and several others] are tiny little
processor boards with weird names that run some flavor of LINUX, and
thus will run LINUX-based applications, a great number of which speak
Internet/Web. You can do a great deal with them because of that.

I built a 40-station irrigation controller for my wife using the
Hamstack components [hamstack.com] based on a Microchip PIC. Aside from
using their and Microchip C libraries, I had to write all the functional
code in the PIC myself.

The Hamstack guys [who I know quite well] have now added Beagle Bone and
maybe Raspberry Pi to their line, which allows you to capitalize on
already created applications and modules.

Hope this helps. I wouldn't be holding my breath for royalties,
however. :-))

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 7/10/2014 1:15 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?

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Joshua Gould, K8WXA

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

The "Mac Air" is a laptop. properly known as a MacBook Air. It's the
'netbook' variant of the laptops.

As Far as I know, there is no way to use the internal display of a MacBook
to display anything other than the OS or an application. That applies to
anything with a display in it that Apple makes.

73,
Joshua Gould
K8WXA
EM89pn

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know what a MacAir is, I've pretty much managed to avoid the
> iWorld. I can tell you about the Raspberry Pi [and others] however.
>
> Raspberry Pi [and Beagle Bone, and several others] are tiny little
> processor boards with weird names that run some flavor of LINUX, and thus
> will run LINUX-based applications, a great number of which speak
> Internet/Web. You can do a great deal with them because of that.
>
> I built a 40-station irrigation controller for my wife using the Hamstack
> components [hamstack.com] based on a Microchip PIC. Aside from using
> their and Microchip C libraries, I had to write all the functional code in
> the PIC myself.
>
> The Hamstack guys [who I know quite well] have now added Beagle Bone and
> maybe Raspberry Pi to their line, which allows you to capitalize on already
> created applications and modules.
>
> Hope this helps. I wouldn't be holding my breath for royalties, however.
> :-))
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
>
> On 7/10/2014 1:15 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>
> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
>> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
>> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
>> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
>> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
>> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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wa4ta

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Why not just look at the P3 display? Don't you need that to have the P3 SVGA? I don't have a P3.
What about using a Softrock Lite IF to a USB sound card on the Macbook Air? The Softrock Lite is about $22 but you have to build it. You could also get a LP-Pan2, but you already have the P3 so you may not want to do that.
A quick google search turned up this:http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/vga2usb/
It is $299 list price, but there should be other less expensive vga-to-usb devices that can be used on a Mac.
Hope that gives you a place to start. Although I may not be understanding what you are asking al. I do have a Softrock light IF to a sound card on my Windows PC. I have not tried it to my Macbook Pro, but that is a company machine.
Tom - wa4ta

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:15:43 +0000
> Subject: [Elecraft] Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers
>
> A week or two ago I posted this question: Would it be possible to have
> the P3's SVGA output displayed on the screen of a MacAir computer, and
> have a logging program resident on the same computer, and be able to
> toggle between the two with a simple computer keyboard stroke? Neat trick
> for contesting if there's no room for dual monitors, eh?
>
> The simple answer (but see below) turns out to be no - with some dongling
> older Macs could operate as "dumb" monitors but newer ones (like my
> MacAir) cannot, a fact I had confirmed by a tech at the local Apple store.
> I was told that only the 27" monitor (too big for my space) might be able
> to do that, and maybe it couldn't either.
>
> I was referred by a member of this reflector (thank you) to a
> computer-consultant friend of his, from whom I learned that there was no
> direct way to do it but that it could be done if the P3's SVGA output
> could be made into the electronic equivalent of an Internet web site.
> Moreover, he said, that should be possible using something called
> "Raspberry Pi."
>
> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?
>
> If it turns out to be patentable I'm willing to share the royalties . . .
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

I thought about this problem for a few minutes a few months ago. Decided it was not worth the
hassle. Therefore, if I want a larger screen for the P3 then I would use an SVGA monitor that
could be bought for $50 to $150 depending on lots of variables.

But, if you want full rig control (logging at least) on a Mac then the there are a handful of products
that do that but they do not include panadapter features (as far as I know).

As someone has suggested, you could possible use a frame grabber which would take the SVGA
output of the P3/SVGA and then display the results with a suitable app on your mac but that seems
to be going way overboard and I am betting with less than excellent results. Fast real-time response
on the P3 screen may be difficult with a frame grabber approach.

I think there could be a great "market" (although likely free software) for a good Mac interface to
a K3 or KX3 that is akin to something like the Flex Radio PC software. This would require something
different then a P3, the LP-Pan type solution instead of a P3, but the KX3 could interface directly with
its I/Q output.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Jul 10, 2014, at 4:14 PM, tom armour <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why not just look at the P3 display? Don't you need that to have the P3 SVGA? I don't have a P3.
> What about using a Softrock Lite IF to a USB sound card on the Macbook Air? The Softrock Lite is about $22 but you have to build it. You could also get a LP-Pan2, but you already have the P3 so you may not want to do that.
> A quick google search turned up this:http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/vga2usb/
> It is $299 list price, but there should be other less expensive vga-to-usb devices that can be used on a Mac.
> Hope that gives you a place to start. Although I may not be understanding what you are asking al. I do have a Softrock light IF to a sound card on my Windows PC. I have not tried it to my Macbook Pro, but that is a company machine.
> Tom - wa4ta
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:15:43 +0000
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers
>>
>> A week or two ago I posted this question: Would it be possible to have
>> the P3's SVGA output displayed on the screen of a MacAir computer, and
>> have a logging program resident on the same computer, and be able to
>> toggle between the two with a simple computer keyboard stroke? Neat trick
>> for contesting if there's no room for dual monitors, eh?
>>
>> The simple answer (but see below) turns out to be no - with some dongling
>> older Macs could operate as "dumb" monitors but newer ones (like my
>> MacAir) cannot, a fact I had confirmed by a tech at the local Apple store.
>> I was told that only the 27" monitor (too big for my space) might be able
>> to do that, and maybe it couldn't either.
>>
>> I was referred by a member of this reflector (thank you) to a
>> computer-consultant friend of his, from whom I learned that there was no
>> direct way to do it but that it could be done if the P3's SVGA output
>> could be made into the electronic equivalent of an Internet web site.
>> Moreover, he said, that should be possible using something called
>> "Raspberry Pi."
>>
>> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
>> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
>> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
>> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
>> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
>> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?
>>
>> If it turns out to be patentable I'm willing to share the royalties . . .
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Although Raspberry Pi is indeed a Linux system, the cpu is not Intel so any of the software that is available for
Linux must be built from sources on the Raspberry Pi system (unless it is provided by rPI's distro).

Not every ham radio operator is equipped to build large complicated applications from sources. Even though
various Linux distros make this easy, it does not mean that everything is easy. So, to get a package buildable
on Raspberry Pi Linux may require a bit more programming and Linux/Unix/GNU knowledge than typically held
by the everyday ham. This includes fooling around with the configure script or at worse making source changes
to the software.

Plus, there are some available Linux packages that may require language compilers that are not available on
the Raspberry Pi distro.

73, phil, K7PEH
- 15 years of Linux development experience
- 30 years of Unix development experience
- 45 years as a professional programmer
- But, I admit to less than 1 year of rpi development experience

On Jul 10, 2014, at 3:27 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know what a MacAir is, I've pretty much managed to avoid the iWorld. I can tell you about the Raspberry Pi [and others] however.
>
> Raspberry Pi [and Beagle Bone, and several others] are tiny little processor boards with weird names that run some flavor of LINUX, and thus will run LINUX-based applications, a great number of which speak Internet/Web. You can do a great deal with them because of that.
>
> I built a 40-station irrigation controller for my wife using the Hamstack components [hamstack.com] based on a Microchip PIC. Aside from using their and Microchip C libraries, I had to write all the functional code in the PIC myself.
>
> The Hamstack guys [who I know quite well] have now added Beagle Bone and maybe Raspberry Pi to their line, which allows you to capitalize on already created applications and modules.
>
> Hope this helps. I wouldn't be holding my breath for royalties, however. :-))
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 7/10/2014 1:15 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>
>> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
>> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
>> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
>> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
>> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
>> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jack Brindle-2

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

<sigh> This is not a difficult problem to solve. First off, the MacBook Air is _not_ a netbook. Netbooks are defined by their low-power processors (typically Intel Atoms). The MacBook Air has a full multi-core Intel I5 processor, which means it can do real work.

The best way to approach this is to look for a USB video input device, such as those from El Gato, which can input video to the Mac. From there, just use the El Gato application to display the video, or save it to disk.
I don’t know if El Gato has a VGA-capable converter, but I do know they have devices that can input other video formats such as those common to current TVs and DVRs. I believe their URL is www.elgato.com or something similar. You may have to search for a suitable device that does VGA, and I suspect it won’t be inexpensive. Still, worth the effort.

I would expect the conversion task to take a notable amount of processor horsepower since much of the conversion occurs inside the Mac. This means that that extra horsepower you get because the MacBook Air is _not_ a netbook will be very useful.

You might also want to look at an alternate solution - an external monitor that the P3 and the MacBook Air can feed. While this solution means that you can only see one or the other video sources at a time, it might actually be less expensive.

Jack B, W6FB

On Jul 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A week or two ago I posted this question: Would it be possible to have
> the P3's SVGA output displayed on the screen of a MacAir computer, and
> have a logging program resident on the same computer, and be able to
> toggle between the two with a simple computer keyboard stroke? Neat trick
> for contesting if there's no room for dual monitors, eh?
>
> The simple answer (but see below) turns out to be no - with some dongling
> older Macs could operate as "dumb" monitors but newer ones (like my
> MacAir) cannot, a fact I had confirmed by a tech at the local Apple store.
> I was told that only the 27" monitor (too big for my space) might be able
> to do that, and maybe it couldn't either.
>
> I was referred by a member of this reflector (thank you) to a
> computer-consultant friend of his, from whom I learned that there was no
> direct way to do it but that it could be done if the P3's SVGA output
> could be made into the electronic equivalent of an Internet web site.
> Moreover, he said, that should be possible using something called
> "Raspberry Pi."
>
> Right. For an EE or computer expert, maybe; but not for a Liberal Arts
> sort of guy. Even my Internet research about "Raspberry Pi" was
> entertaining but incomprehensible. But that aside, does anyone know of a
> way to feed the P3 output into a server sort of thing and have it come out
> as something that will fool the MacAir into thinking it's a web site,
> hence toggleable vis-a-vis the resident logging program?
>
> If it turns out to be patentable I'm willing to share the royalties . . .
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

tomb18

Re: Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Hi
What about a webcam? Some 720 p cams let you get close enough.
Tom
va2fsq.com

-------- Original message --------
From: tom armour <[hidden email]>
Date: 10/07/2014 7:14 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Update on a Question About the P3 SVGA and Mac Computers

Why not just look at the P3 display? Don't you need that to have the P3 SVGA? I don't have a P3.
What about using a Softrock Lite IF to a USB sound card on the Macbook Air? The Softrock Lite is about $22 but you have to build it. You could also get a LP-Pan2, but you already have the P3 so you may not want to do that.
A quick google search turned up this:http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/vga2usb/
It is $299 list price, but there should be other less expensive vga-to-usb devices that can be used on a Mac.
Hope that gives you a place to start. Although I may not be understanding what you are asking al. I do have a Softrock light IF to a sound card on my Windows PC. I have not tried it to my Macbook Pro, but that is a company machine.
Tom - wa4ta