Using "Buddi Pole" Deluxe Antenna with K3

[KC2VNI]

I have just gotten my radio set up thanks to W3DVX. It has both the internal ATU and 100W power amp options in it. I was wondering if any of you have some tips on how to operate a Buddi Pole Deluxe antenna system? If you have any suggestions or some past experience, please advise.

Here are some of my questions:

1) Do you set the frequency 1st on the front of the radio AND then activate the tuner?

2) The antenna is rated for 250W. I would assume that this means it's okay to use the full 100W from the amp but I am concerned about the effects of SWR.

3) I was wondering if I'll get better results using the antenna as a vertical or do I want to try it on horizontal dipole (I believe you get about 16 feet of height above grade).

4) I was wondering if any one has had experience with the Buddipole on SSB?

Please advise with whatever opinions you may have. Please know that I recognize I'm probably not going to get more than say NVIS type of propagation with this type of set-up (since I'm in a relatively flat area with no hills or the like).

73

KC2VNI-Steve

[George Thornton]

I assume you have properly installed and activated the ATU.  

To operate the ATU you tune the radio to the band and frequency you
intend to use and then press ATU tune to operate the tuner.  Make sure
you have the antenna attached and selected first.  The ATU must also be
turned on.

The ATU is pretty robust and will handle an antenna with a 10:1 SWR
mismatch.  In addition, the radio has a lot of protective circuitry.

I have never actually used the buddipole but I have reviewed the manual.
There is extensive advice on setting up and configuring the antenna.

The easiest and safest way to handle this situation is to buy or borrow
an antenna analyzer.  I have the MFJ version and it works fine.  The
analyzer will allow you to make modifications and tune the antenna
precisely without risk to your expensive transceiver.



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of KC2VNI
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:26 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Using "Buddi Pole" Deluxe Antenna with K3


I have just gotten my radio set up thanks to W3DVX. It has both the
internal
ATU and 100W power amp options in it. I was wondering if any of you have
some tips on how to operate a Buddi Pole Deluxe antenna system? If you
have
any suggestions or some past experience, please advise.

Here are some of my questions:

1) Do you set the frequency 1st on the front of the radio AND then
activate
the tuner?

2) The antenna is rated for 250W. I would assume that this means it's
okay
to use the full 100W from the amp but I am concerned about the effects
of
SWR.

3) I was wondering if I'll get better results using the antenna as a
vertical or do I want to try it on horizontal dipole (I believe you get
about 16 feet of height above grade).

4) I was wondering if any one has had experience with the Buddipole on
SSB?

Please advise with whatever opinions you may have. Please know that I
recognize I'm probably not going to get more than say NVIS type of
propagation with this type of set-up (since I'm in a relatively flat
area
with no hills or the like).

73

KC2VNI-Steve

--
View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/Using-Buddi-Pole-Deluxe-Antenna-with-K3-tp4867678p4
867678.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

You might try the Buddipole users list, which you'll find at http://buddipole.com/documentation.html

The Buddipole is (usually) a shortened, high-efficiency antenna, which means that it is relatively narrow-banded. It's fed off-center to bring the real component of the impedance up, but on the lower bands it has a real impedance of less than 50 ohms.  So, it's best to use the coils to tune for resonance (X or reactance = 0) and then use the ATU at that point to match the real portion of the impedance.  They also sell a matching transformer which does a better job, as it's at the antenna end, but it's an additional purchase.

So, I'd recommend putting the K3 ATU in bypass, setting up the Buddipole as the instruction card says, and try moving the tips in and out a few inches to see what the SWR is.  If you use the ATU to lower the SWR when it's way too high, the Buddipole won't be doing its job.

For vertical or horizontal, you'll find mostly that vertical is best for the high bands and horizontal is best for the low bands for DX (though you'll want to use a wire instead of an arm for the ground side).  Horizontal can work for 40M "NVIS" local communications where you plan to aim the signal straight up.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

[lstavenhagen]

Don't mean to jump in, but I'm actually kicking the idea of a Buddipole around for portable operation myself. I used to think it was expensive until I recently tried to homebrew an equivalent out of parts from the hardware store. To my surprise, by the time I got one side built with a homebrew coil, supports, etc., I was getting distressingly close to having spent somewhere in the neighborhood of the cost of a Buddistick and I _still_ had this hulking piece of garbage that actually weighed a fair bit and couldn't be broken down, etc. If you already have stuff on hand it can be cost-effective, but if you're like me and having to go from scratch you'll be shocked and amazed at how even something simple adds up.

The other solution - a 100' piece of wire - is cheap from the hardware store (about 15 bucks) and works surprisingly well with a good tuner and counterpoise, but requires a tree or other support to get it into the air. And then you have the inevitable snarl of wire for the main piece and the counterpoise unless you figure out a good method of coiling/uncoiling the wire (more $$$).
My problem too is some of the places I'd like to go QRV are on tops of hills and mountains where good trees aren't available so my wire ant. wouldn't work there, unless I had my own support somehow.

The only drawback I can see with the buddipole is that, because it's intended as a resonant system, you'd need to retune it by moving the clips when you change bands. With the wire, the tuner just takes care of that.

But to be honest, I havn't been able to come up with a significantly better/cheaper solution myself for portable that does the same thing. I can go cheaper, but it's bulkier and heavier. Otherwise, it costs about as much hi hi.

So I'm considering one too and may even use it in my apt. when I'm not /p. My indoor wire solution works moderately well for receive, but is not great for transmit....

73,
LS
W5QD

[Jay S]

The K3 works fine with the Buddipole.  I've used mine a few times.
I've also used the Buddipole with a KX1, K1, K2 and FT817.  It works
fine as long as you realize it isn't going to be be as good as a full
size wire dipole.  Here is how I do it:

1) Setup the antenna for the band you want to operate.  I usually set
it up as a horizontal dipole but you can set it up as a sloping dipole
or vertical.  I'm not sure which is best.  When the antenna is setup,
I use the blue card that comes with the antenna to make the correct
settings for the band.  If it says to extend the red side to 5 - 5.5
sections, I extend it right in the middle.

2) I then put the radio to a very low power (a few watts) and put it
in CW mode with the antenna tuner off and do a short transmission
looking at the SWR meter to check the SWR.  If it is less than 3:1, I
go with it and use the antenna tuner to top it off.  If it is more
than 3:1, I go to the next step

3) to determine if you need to lengthen or shorten the antenna, tune
lower in the band and try the transmission test again.  If the SWR is
less than it was before, the antenna needs to be shortened.  If the
SWR is higher than it was before, the antenna needs to be lengthened.
You can also tune higher in the band and check there.  I make a small
adjustment to the whips (1 inch or so), then go back to the original
frequency and try again.

I use CW 95% of the time and I've found that once I get it close in
the CW section of the band I have no problems using it on that band
for any CW frequency.  The antenna tuner will help with this.

I hope this helps.  I started using the buddipole last summer and have
only used it a few times this year so I hope to get more experience
with it this summer.  I bought an antenna analyzer that helps with the
tuning of the antenna.  If you get one of those, you can use it to
determine the setting you need without transmitting.  It is not
necessary, but is helpful.

73
Jay


On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:26 PM, KC2VNI <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I have just gotten my radio set up thanks to W3DVX. It has both the internal
> ATU and 100W power amp options in it. I was wondering if any of you have
> some tips on how to operate a Buddi Pole Deluxe antenna system? If you have
> any suggestions or some past experience, please advise.
>
> Here are some of my questions:
>
> 1) Do you set the frequency 1st on the front of the radio AND then activate
> the tuner?
>
> 2) The antenna is rated for 250W. I would assume that this means it's okay
> to use the full 100W from the amp but I am concerned about the effects of
> SWR.
>
> 3) I was wondering if I'll get better results using the antenna as a
> vertical or do I want to try it on horizontal dipole (I believe you get
> about 16 feet of height above grade).
>
> 4) I was wondering if any one has had experience with the Buddipole on SSB?
>
> Please advise with whatever opinions you may have. Please know that I
> recognize I'm probably not going to get more than say NVIS type of
> propagation with this type of set-up (since I'm in a relatively flat area
> with no hills or the like).
>
> 73
>
> KC2VNI-Steve
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Using-Buddi-Pole-Deluxe-Antenna-with-K3-tp4867678p4867678.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Jay S]

I've found that the Buddipole is very flexible and you can configure
it in many ways.  I think this is what causes some people to not like
the antenna.  There isn't just one way to do it.  I like it because
you can play with it and try out different configurations to see what
works for you.  I have used the Buddipole with wire.  I put the
Buddipole together without the whips and instead of the whips I used a
wire to make a longer inverted-V.  It worked fine on 40m and 20m
without changing the taps (using the ATU of course).  I didn't try it
on other bands.   If you like playing with antennas outside, it is a
good kit.

At home, I have a 20m - 6m vertical but nothing for 40m.  When it is
nice outside, I setup the Buddipole for 40m on my deck and operate
from inside where it is either warmer or colder (depending on the
season) and without the bugs.

73
Jay

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 9:15 AM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Don't mean to jump in, but I'm actually kicking the idea of a Buddipole
> around for portable operation myself. I used to think it was expensive until
> I recently tried to homebrew an equivalent out of parts from the hardware
> store. To my surprise, by the time I got one side built with a homebrew
> coil, supports, etc., I was getting distressingly close to having spent
> somewhere in the neighborhood of the cost of a Buddistick and I _still_ had
> this hulking piece of garbage that actually weighed a fair bit and couldn't
> be broken down, etc. If you already have stuff on hand it can be
> cost-effective, but if you're like me and having to go from scratch you'll
> be shocked and amazed at how even something simple adds up.
>
> The other solution - a 100' piece of wire - is cheap from the hardware store
> (about 15 bucks) and works surprisingly well with a good tuner and
> counterpoise, but requires a tree or other support to get it into the air.
> And then you have the inevitable snarl of wire for the main piece and the
> counterpoise unless you figure out a good method of coiling/uncoiling the
> wire (more $$$).
> My problem too is some of the places I'd like to go QRV are on tops of hills
> and mountains where good trees aren't available so my wire ant. wouldn't
> work there, unless I had my own support somehow.
>
> The only drawback I can see with the buddipole is that, because it's
> intended as a resonant system, you'd need to retune it by moving the clips
> when you change bands. With the wire, the tuner just takes care of that.
>
> But to be honest, I havn't been able to come up with a significantly
> better/cheaper solution myself for portable that does the same thing. I can
> go cheaper, but it's bulkier and heavier. Otherwise, it costs about as much
> hi hi.
>
> So I'm considering one too and may even use it in my apt. when I'm not /p.
> My indoor wire solution works moderately well for receive, but is not great
> for transmit....
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Using-Buddi-Pole-Deluxe-Antenna-with-K3-tp4867678p4870948.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[alsopb]

I have a basic problem with shortened low antennas.  They are a handicap.

I remember one article in CQ where one fellow went to the beach with a
0.25 W QRP rig and a budipole.  He made no QSO's but "had fun anyhow".

So it may all depend upon your expectations.  If you want to try and
make a few QSO's with say 100W and such and antenna, then you probably
won't be disappointed.  However, if you into DXing and even QRP
contesting, don't bother.

On the other hand, if you're going someplace for portable operation, why
not select a place where you can put up a high near full sized antenna?

73 de Brian/K3KO

Jay Sissom wrote:

> I've found that the Buddipole is very flexible and you can configure
> it in many ways.  I think this is what causes some people to not like
> the antenna.  There isn't just one way to do it.  I like it because
> you can play with it and try out different configurations to see what
> works for you.  I have used the Buddipole with wire.  I put the
> Buddipole together without the whips and instead of the whips I used a
> wire to make a longer inverted-V.  It worked fine on 40m and 20m
> without changing the taps (using the ATU of course).  I didn't try it
> on other bands.   If you like playing with antennas outside, it is a
> good kit.
>
> At home, I have a 20m - 6m vertical but nothing for 40m.  When it is
> nice outside, I setup the Buddipole for 40m on my deck and operate
> from inside where it is either warmer or colder (depending on the
> season) and without the bugs.
>
> 73
> Jay

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Jim Brown-10]

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:17:46 +0000, Brian Alsop wrote:

>I have a basic problem with shortened low antennas.  They are a handicap.

YES! VERY poor efficiency and bandwidth. There are many simple alternatives.
a #20 wire thrown over a tree is one. Another is a really neat telescoping
fiberglass pole developed by Walter, DK9SQ, and sold online for a very
reasoanble sum. It extends to 10M, but collapses to a bit over 1M, and comes
with a nice carrying tube. Tie that #20 wire to the pole, figure out a way to
prop it up (or even halfway up), lay a few radials out, and you've got a GOOD
antenna. By playing with wire lengths, you can easily load it and make it
work well on 40, 30, 20, and 17. I've also seen stakes designed to hold it
vertical. Google on his call to find it.

Several years ago, I used exactly that rig for the QRP night of the Chicago
club I was a member of, and had a lot of fun with my K2 and a battery. Made a
half dozen nice Qs on 30M in under an hour, even busting a pileup for a
Caribbean expedition!  

73,

Jim K9YC



______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[W8JI]

Antennas are a magical gray world of what makes everyone
happy, but they all work a certain scientific way that we
cannot change.

The Buddipole, being a shortened and "offset feed" antenna,
is going to have a whole lot of feedline radiation and
common mode back to the rig. It would take extraordinary
efforts to stop the common mode. This does not mean we would
always NOTICE the common mode, it just means it would be
there. Many times this common mode is how very small
antennas get most of their radiation.

Some people will love them, some will hate them, mostly
because of the things we don't even realize are affecting
the performance.

The proper way to tune one is to tune the antenna for lowest
SWR with the tuner off at the desired frequency, and then
use the tuner for touch-up only.


73 Tom

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Jay S]

I could take your first sentence and say:

"I have a basic problem with QRP power.  It is a handicap."

You probably missed in my first message where I said that we know that
a Buddipole won't compete with a full size dipole.

I'm sorry you don't approve of how we enjoy our hobby.

73
Jay
W9IUF

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Brian Alsop <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a basic problem with shortened low antennas.  They are a handicap.
>
> I remember one article in CQ where one fellow went to the beach with a
> 0.25 W QRP rig and a budipole.  He made no QSO's but "had fun anyhow".
>
> So it may all depend upon your expectations.  If you want to try and
> make a few QSO's with say 100W and such and antenna, then you probably
> won't be disappointed.  However, if you into DXing and even QRP
> contesting, don't bother.
>
> On the other hand, if you're going someplace for portable operation, why
> not select a place where you can put up a high near full sized antenna?
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> Jay Sissom wrote:
>> I've found that the Buddipole is very flexible and you can configure
>> it in many ways.  I think this is what causes some people to not like
>> the antenna.  There isn't just one way to do it.  I like it because
>> you can play with it and try out different configurations to see what
>> works for you.  I have used the Buddipole with wire.  I put the
>> Buddipole together without the whips and instead of the whips I used a
>> wire to make a longer inverted-V.  It worked fine on 40m and 20m
>> without changing the taps (using the ATU of course).  I didn't try it
>> on other bands.   If you like playing with antennas outside, it is a
>> good kit.
>>
>> At home, I have a 20m - 6m vertical but nothing for 40m.  When it is
>> nice outside, I setup the Buddipole for 40m on my deck and operate
>> from inside where it is either warmer or colder (depending on the
>> season) and without the bugs.
>>
>> 73
>> Jay
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

I agree with Tom on this.  My simple solution is a length of wire, center
fed with light weight TV 300 ohm line which is terminated into a 1:1 current
balun at the radio.  Put it up in any fashion, any height and enjoy
everything from 160M - 6M as long as the internal tuner will handle the
task.  It will work very efficiently on any frequency where the length is
1/2 wave or more and with some compromise on those frequencies where it is
less than 1/2 wavelength.  Overall the costs is less than $50 and can be
packed and transported very easily.  From experience it makes no difference
if it is 5 ft above ground tied between bushes or at 50 ft.  The performance
and enjoyment is the same.  And it is certainly much less problematic than
those that use coils and mechanical parts and lighter weight too.

73
Bob, K4TAX


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Using "Buddi Pole" Deluxe Antenna with K3

> Antennas are a magical gray world of what makes everyone
> happy, but they all work a certain scientific way that we
> cannot change.
>
> The Buddipole, being a shortened and "offset feed" antenna,
> is going to have a whole lot of feedline radiation and
> common mode back to the rig. It would take extraordinary
> efforts to stop the common mode. This does not mean we would
> always NOTICE the common mode, it just means it would be
> there. Many times this common mode is how very small
> antennas get most of their radiation.
>
> Some people will love them, some will hate them, mostly
> because of the things we don't even realize are affecting
> the performance.
>
> The proper way to tune one is to tune the antenna for lowest
> SWR with the tuner off at the desired frequency, and then
> use the tuner for touch-up only.
>
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html