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Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

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Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

Has anyone figured out how to use a tube transmitter while using a modern Elecraft transceiver as the receiver safely? Is it possible?
Thanks and 73,
Eric WD6DBM
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

Eric,

Although I am not certain why you would want to do that, it can be done
- Elecraft gear offers seamless transceive operation all by itself, so I
do not understand the fascination with an external tube type
transmitter. OTOH, if you really want to do that --

Arrange for external antenna switching between the transmitter and the
receiver (that is common with tube transmitters and is built into some
transmitters).

Use the RX input for the receiver (you will require the options that
make the Elecraft gear RX antenna capable).
The above takes care of the antenna switching.

Turn the power control on the Elecraft transceiver to zero (or use TX
TEST), and connect a dummy load to the Elecraft transceiver regular ANT
output jack. That will protect the Elecraft transceiver PA transistors
in case of any fault.

Now, key the Elecraft transceiver at the same time as the tube
transceiver, and the Elecraft receiver will be muted. during transmit.

Additional requirements such as spotting the transmit frequency are not
included in the above, but that is the essentials for protecting the
Elecraft transceiver while allowing it to be used as a receiver with a
tube transmitter. There is likely enough leakage through the antenna
relay (switch) to allow spotting, but that depends on your exact
implementation. To Spot, remove the keying from the Elecraft
transceiver so it is not muted while keying the tube transmitter. I
don't particularly recommend that procedure since it adds to the number
of "tuner-uppers" on the air, and may result in "sliding VFOs" as well
which is another irritation to other operators. It all depends on the
capabilities of the tube transmitter being used.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/22/2014 10:59 PM, eric norris via Elecraft wrote:
> Has anyone figured out how to use a tube transmitter while using a modern Elecraft transceiver as the receiver safely? Is it possible?
> Thanks and 73,
> Eric WD6DBM

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stan levandowski

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

Phil, AD5X, has an article on a T/R switch at:
http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/QSKBArevA.pdf

I've built it and it works FB.

As far as why one would want to do this: It's just downright "fun" to
build a homebrew tube rig, for QRP or otherwise, and to restore a
vintage transmitter. If we already have a good, modern transceiver in
the shack, then half the problem is solved.

I've had much fun with my Xtal controlled 6C4-5763 rig, chirps and
all....

73, Stan WB2LQF

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Eric,
>
> Although I am not certain why you would want to do that, it can be
> done - Elecraft gear offers seamless transceive operation all by
> itself, so I do not understand the fascination with an external tube
> type transmitter. OTOH, if you really want to do that --
>

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Ken Miller K6CTW

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

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ve3dvy

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

In reply to this post by stan levandowski

Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up till
recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until recently
when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy reciever but its
still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1 will crank out a whole
lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and it warms the shack in the
winter. Its not all DX and contests sometimes its fun to get out the
old and tinker. next up is 1930 era two tube push pull UX-245 40m
transmitter now were talking chirp!.

David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

On 10/23/2014 09:13, stan levandowski wrote:

> Phil, AD5X, has an article on a T/R switch at:
> http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/QSKBArevA.pdf
>
>
> I've built it and it works FB.
>
>
> As far as why one would want to do this: It's just downright "fun" to
> build a homebrew tube rig, for QRP or otherwise, and to restore a
> vintage transmitter. If we already have a good, modern transceiver in
> the shack, then half the problem is solved.
>
>
> I've had much fun with my Xtal controlled 6C4-5763 rig, chirps and
> all....
>
>
> 73, Stan WB2LQF
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> Although I am not certain why you would want to do that, it can be
>> done - Elecraft gear offers seamless transceive operation all by
>> itself, so I do not understand the fascination with an external tube
>> type transmitter. OTOH, if you really want to do that --
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

Re: Heath TX1 power --
The Heath TX1 used a pair of 6146 output tubes, those normally run 180
watts *input* power.
Modern transceivers (K3 included) are rated fort power output.
If one assumes a 67% efficiency (realistic) at 180 watts input, the
output power will be 120 watts - that is about what one can get from a
K3, although I do not recommend running the power knob to more than 100
watts to keep IMD under control.

Sooo - I don't think the TX1 will "crank out a whole more power" It
seems to me to be about the same.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/23/2014 8:25 PM, david Moes wrote:
> Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up
> till recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until
> recently when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy reciever
> but its still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1 will crank
> out a whole lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and it warms the
> shack in the winter. Its not all DX and contests sometimes its fun to
> get out the old and tinker. next up is 1930 era two tube push pull
> UX-245 40m transmitter now were talking chirp!.
>

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ve3dvy

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

the TX1 with High level plate modulation it will do way more on AM than
the K3 I get about 110W carrier. the TX1 didn't do SSB without
additional hardware which I have but its not yet restored. the real
point is the vintage fun factor of restoring and getting on the air with
110lbs of iron.

David Moes

VE3DVY, VE3SD

On 10/23/2014 20:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Re: Heath TX1 power --
> The Heath TX1 used a pair of 6146 output tubes, those normally run 180
> watts *input* power.
> Modern transceivers (K3 included) are rated fort power output.
> If one assumes a 67% efficiency (realistic) at 180 watts input, the
> output power will be 120 watts - that is about what one can get from a
> K3, although I do not recommend running the power knob to more than
> 100 watts to keep IMD under control.
>
> Sooo - I don't think the TX1 will "crank out a whole more power" It
> seems to me to be about the same.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/23/2014 8:25 PM, david Moes wrote:
>> Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up
>> till recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until
>> recently when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy reciever
>> but its still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1 will crank
>> out a whole lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and it warms the
>> shack in the winter. Its not all DX and contests sometimes its fun to
>> get out the old and tinker. next up is 1930 era two tube push pull
>> UX-245 40m transmitter now were talking chirp!.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

David,

Yes, I did not consider that a plate modulated AM transmitter will
produce AM with a carrier power equal to the CW power. That is 120
watts 100% modulated on AM. That is 120 watts of carrier and 60 watts
in each sideband. Effective communications power is 60 watts compared
to 100 watts SSB power with the K3 and similar 100 watt class transceivers.

A transmitter like the K3 which develops AM at a low level stage and
amplifies it must drop the carrier power back to about 50% of the full
power to prevent excessive heat dissipation while remaining linear.

Sorry, but I am not a fan of "Ancient Modulation". Talk power with SSB
is so much greater than AM. Just my not so humble opinion.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/23/2014 8:57 PM, david Moes wrote:
> the TX1 with High level plate modulation it will do way more on AM
> than the K3 I get about 110W carrier. the TX1 didn't do SSB without
> additional hardware which I have but its not yet restored. the real
> point is the vintage fun factor of restoring and getting on the air
> with 110lbs of iron.
>

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riese-k3djc

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

check the OT contest sponsored by the Antique Wireless Association
usually Hartleys or TPTG rigs what a fantastic contest
it is an honor to get a chirp report from a O O
80 and 40 meters

I have a hartley which can chirp out of the passband of a modern rcv
depends on how much power I try to get out of it

HAR

Bob K3DJC

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 20:25:38 -0400 david Moes <[hidden email]> writes:

> Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up
> till
> recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until
> recently
> when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy reciever but its
>
> still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1 will crank out a
> whole
> lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and it warms the shack in
> the
> winter. Its not all DX and contests sometimes its fun to get out
> the
> old and tinker. next up is 1930 era two tube push pull UX-245 40m
>
> transmitter now were talking chirp!.
>
>
> David Moes
> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
> [hidden email]
> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>
> On 10/23/2014 09:13, stan levandowski wrote:
> > Phil, AD5X, has an article on a T/R switch at:
> > http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/QSKBArevA.pdf
> >
> >
> > I've built it and it works FB.
> >
> >
> > As far as why one would want to do this: It's just downright "fun"
> to
> > build a homebrew tube rig, for QRP or otherwise, and to restore a
>
> > vintage transmitter. If we already have a good, modern
> transceiver in
> > the shack, then half the problem is solved.
> >
> >
> > I've had much fun with my Xtal controlled 6C4-5763 rig, chirps and
>
> > all....
> >
> >
> > 73, Stan WB2LQF
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> Although I am not certain why you would want to do that, it can
> be
> >> done - Elecraft gear offers seamless transceive operation all by
>
> >> itself, so I do not understand the fascination with an external
> tube
> >> type transmitter. OTOH, if you really want to do that --
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Alan Bloom

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

> the TX1

Ah yes, the "Scratchy Apache" was a fine radio. I had the SB-10 SSB
adapter to go with it. It worked great with a VHF transmitting
converter because the low-level output from the SB-10 was just about the
right power level to drive the converter.

I used to frequently get unsolicited compliments on my audio quality.
(No crystal filters in the transmit path.)

Alan N1AL

On 10/23/2014 05:57 PM, david Moes wrote:

> the TX1 with High level plate modulation it will do way more on AM
> than the K3 I get about 110W carrier. the TX1 didn't do SSB without
> additional hardware which I have but its not yet restored. the real
> point is the vintage fun factor of restoring and getting on the air
> with 110lbs of iron.
>
> David Moes
>
>
> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>
> On 10/23/2014 20:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Re: Heath TX1 power --
>> The Heath TX1 used a pair of 6146 output tubes, those normally run
>> 180 watts *input* power.
>> Modern transceivers (K3 included) are rated fort power output.
>> If one assumes a 67% efficiency (realistic) at 180 watts input, the
>> output power will be 120 watts - that is about what one can get from
>> a K3, although I do not recommend running the power knob to more than
>> 100 watts to keep IMD under control.
>>
>> Sooo - I don't think the TX1 will "crank out a whole more power" It
>> seems to me to be about the same.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 10/23/2014 8:25 PM, david Moes wrote:
>>> Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up
>>> till recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until
>>> recently when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy
>>> reciever but its still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1
>>> will crank out a whole lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and
>>> it warms the shack in the winter. Its not all DX and contests
>>> sometimes its fun to get out the old and tinker. next up is 1930
>>> era two tube push pull UX-245 40m transmitter now were talking
>>> chirp!.
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

Yes.......properly adjusted phasing type SSB generators have always been
known for their excellent audio ala HT-37, 100V and now, even though it's
performed in software, the KX3.

Maybe that "chirp" could be a new feature for Wayne to incorporate so we can
pretend * we're operating a 30's hollow state xmtr.

73, Charlie k3ICH

* I DO hope you don't think this was serious, but you never know how some
comments are taken......

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Using tube transmitter with K3/KX3/K2 as receiver?

> > the TX1
>
> Ah yes, the "Scratchy Apache" was a fine radio. I had the SB-10 SSB
> adapter to go with it. It worked great with a VHF transmitting converter
> because the low-level output from the SB-10 was just about the right power
> level to drive the converter.
>
> I used to frequently get unsolicited compliments on my audio quality. (No
> crystal filters in the transmit path.)
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2014 05:57 PM, david Moes wrote:
>> the TX1 with High level plate modulation it will do way more on AM than
>> the K3 I get about 110W carrier. the TX1 didn't do SSB without
>> additional hardware which I have but its not yet restored. the real
>> point is the vintage fun factor of restoring and getting on the air with
>> 110lbs of iron.
>>
>> David Moes
>>
>>
>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>
>> On 10/23/2014 20:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Re: Heath TX1 power --
>>> The Heath TX1 used a pair of 6146 output tubes, those normally run 180
>>> watts *input* power.
>>> Modern transceivers (K3 included) are rated fort power output.
>>> If one assumes a 67% efficiency (realistic) at 180 watts input, the
>>> output power will be 120 watts - that is about what one can get from a
>>> K3, although I do not recommend running the power knob to more than 100
>>> watts to keep IMD under control.
>>>
>>> Sooo - I don't think the TX1 will "crank out a whole more power" It
>>> seems to me to be about the same.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 10/23/2014 8:25 PM, david Moes wrote:
>>>> Good question and answers here I did the same as don suggested up
>>>> till recently. I have a Heathkit TX1. I had no receiver until
>>>> recently when I got the RX1 to go with it. bit of a crappy reciever
>>>> but its still a fun to do the nostalgia thing. The TX1 will crank
>>>> out a whole lot more power on AM and CW than the K3 and it warms the
>>>> shack in the winter. Its not all DX and contests sometimes its fun to
>>>> get out the old and tinker. next up is 1930 era two tube push pull
>>>> UX-245 40m transmitter now were talking chirp!.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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