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Volume Level with NR

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Jim HaRRIS

Volume Level with NR

Hi,

I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive.

Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along.

Thank you.

Take Pride in the USA!

73, Jim, W0EM

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wayne burdick

Re: Volume Level with NR

Administrator

Jim,

Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).

You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
different algorithm.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
> be excessive.
>
> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
> can pass along.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> Take Pride in the USA!
>
> 73, Jim, W0EM
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dale Wiese-2

Re: Volume Level with NR

Wayne,

I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level.

When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but the perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and turning a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen to.

On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up [a lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased. Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal is improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.

The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.

73,
Dale
N9XD

On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>
> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
> different algorithm.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
>> be excessive.
>>
>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
>> can pass along.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Take Pride in the USA!
>>
>> 73, Jim, W0EM
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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wayne burdick

Re: Volume Level with NR

Administrator

Dale,

I'll forward this to our DSP engineer, Lyle (KK7P). He's currently on
vacation but will be able to respond to your comments when he returns.

I do know that he worked very hard to equalize the NR on/off volume
levels, and that in general, users have been very positive about the
K3's noise reduction.

Please make sure you're using the latest firmware. NR was improved in
several steps, and later DSP revisions are definitely better in this
regard.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Dale Wiese wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for
> K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what
> he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least
> for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the
> overall audio level....

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W4GRJ

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Dale Wiese-2

Dale,

Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I cannot
notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3 does a great
job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.

You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am sure
there are folks here that can help you.

Jack
W4GRJ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
To: Elecraft Email
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR

Wayne,

I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3
improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is
hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB
reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level.

When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but the
perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare
that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective
for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and turning
a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen
to.

On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent
voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up [a
lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard
to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal is
improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.

The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used
is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is
sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.

73,
Dale
N9XD

On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

K2QI

Re: Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Jim HaRRIS

This too has been my experience, although Lyle has done a good job with the recent updates. However, performance and volume levels in general are still sub par in my opinion. Compare the K3 with even an AF dsp solution like the Gap ANEM, and you'll see that a lot of work still remains to be done.

73 de James
K2QI
------Original Message------
From: Jim Harris
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Sent: Oct 4, 2010 12:04

Hi,

I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive.

Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along.

Thank you.

Take Pride in the USA!

73, Jim, W0EM

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Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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--... ...-- -.. . .--- .- -- . ...

Jim Rogers, W4ATK

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by W4GRJ

I second that. I ran it though all the NR selections and it performed
admirably for me. I could not duplicate the problem here.

73s Jim, W4ATK
On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:54 PM, W4GRJ wrote:

> Dale,
>
> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I
> cannot
> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3 does
> a great
> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.
>
> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am
> sure
> there are folks here that can help you.
>
> Jack
> W4GRJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
> To: Elecraft Email
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
>
> Wayne,
>
> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3
> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is
> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB
> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio
> level.
>
> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away,
> but the
> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is
> rare
> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably
> effective
> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and
> turning
> a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to
> listen
> to.
>
> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the
> apparent
> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be
> turned up [a
> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it
> is hard
> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired
> signal is
> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
>
> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I
> have used
> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find
> which is
> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.
>
> 73,
> Dale
> N9XD
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
>> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
>> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>>
>> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
>> different algorithm.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
>>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
>>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
>>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
>>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
>>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
>>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
>>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
>>> be excessive.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
>>> can pass along.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Take Pride in the USA!
>>>
>>> 73, Jim, W0EM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by W4GRJ

That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2 S units if they
are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear. I am running F
1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

________________________________
From: W4GRJ <[hidden email]>
To: Dale Wiese <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

Dale,

Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I cannot
notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3 does a great
job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.

You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am sure
there are folks here that can help you.

Jack
W4GRJ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
To: Elecraft Email
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR

Wayne,

I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3
improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is
hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB
reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level.

When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but the
perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare
that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective
for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and turning
a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen
to.

On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent
voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up [a
lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard
to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal is
improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.

The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used
is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is
sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.

73,
Dale
N9XD

On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

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Gary Gregory

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

Hmmm...this topic appears from time to time and in the early days I think it
was relevant. Since Lyle has has worked on the DSP and introduced F1-x for
CW and 5-x up for SSB there has been a huge improvement.

Perhaps the settings used by those experiencing a big drop in audio levels
are different to mine BUT I have just checked 7.055 listening to an
Indonesian station close to the noise floor.

The result is I hear a lot of band noise and a soft and difficult to
understand SSB conversation, when I use NR (5-2) the noise drops
significantly and the voice is marginally softer but now understandable. and
a QSO would be easy to do providing the other station would be able to copy
me.

I am sure that Lyle will revisit the Algorithm and see if indeed any
improvements can be made BUT for now I am quite satisfied with the NR
functionality.

Having said this, we all experience different band conditions and what works
for one person may not work for all of us.

My 2 cents worth...keep the change

73's
Gary

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:15 AM, WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2 S units if
> they
> are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear. I am running
> F
> 1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.
>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: W4GRJ <[hidden email]>
> To: Dale Wiese <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email <
> [hidden email]>
> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR
>
> Dale,
>
> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I cannot
> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3 does a great
> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.
>
> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am sure
> there are folks here that can help you.
>
> Jack
> W4GRJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
> To: Elecraft Email
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
>
> Wayne,
>
> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3
> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is
> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB
> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level.
>
> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but
> the
> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare
> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective
> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and
> turning
> a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen
> to.
>
> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent
> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up
> [a
> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard
> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal
> is
> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
>
> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used
> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is
> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.
>
> 73,
> Dale
> N9XD
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
> > drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
> > psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
> >
> > You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
> > different algorithm.
> >
> > 73,
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> >
> > On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
> >> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
> >> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
> >> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
> >> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
> >> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
> >> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
> >> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
> >> be excessive.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
> >> can pass along.
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >>
> >>
> >> Take Pride in the USA!
> >>
> >> 73, Jim, W0EM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
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riese-k3djc

Re: Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Jim HaRRIS

Have to agree. the issue has inproved with the last
update but the audio is still weak and I find mself really\cranking up
the gain

Bob K3DJC

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:45:31 -0700 Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
writes:

> Dale,
>
> I'll forward this to our DSP engineer, Lyle (KK7P). He's currently
> on
> vacation but will be able to respond to your comments when he
> returns.
>
> I do know that he worked very hard to equalize the NR on/off volume
>
> levels, and that in general, users have been very positive about the
>
> K3's noise reduction.
>
> Please make sure you're using the latest firmware. NR was improved
> in
> several steps, and later DSP revisions are definitely better in this
>
> regard.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Dale Wiese wrote:
>
> > Wayne,
> >
> > I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for
>
> > K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what
>
> > he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at
> least
> > for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the
> > overall audio level....
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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David Herring-3

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory

General question to those participating in this thread, when you engage NR, are you running RF gain maxed out, or are you adjusting RF gain back to the point where it just affects the S-meter?

Sadly I'm off the air for a few days so I can't test myself, but I'm interested to know if throttling the RF gain has any bearing on the drop in volume.

73,

Dave, AH6TD

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 4, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hmmm...this topic appears from time to time and in the early days I think it
> was relevant. Since Lyle has has worked on the DSP and introduced F1-x for
> CW and 5-x up for SSB there has been a huge improvement.
>
> Perhaps the settings used by those experiencing a big drop in audio levels
> are different to mine BUT I have just checked 7.055 listening to an
> Indonesian station close to the noise floor.
>
> The result is I hear a lot of band noise and a soft and difficult to
> understand SSB conversation, when I use NR (5-2) the noise drops
> significantly and the voice is marginally softer but now understandable. and
> a QSO would be easy to do providing the other station would be able to copy
> me.
>
> I am sure that Lyle will revisit the Algorithm and see if indeed any
> improvements can be made BUT for now I am quite satisfied with the NR
> functionality.
>
> Having said this, we all experience different band conditions and what works
> for one person may not work for all of us.
>
> My 2 cents worth...keep the change
>
> 73's
> Gary
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:15 AM, WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2 S units if
>> they
>> are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear. I am running
>> F
>> 1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.
>>
>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>> K5EWJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: W4GRJ <[hidden email]>
>> To: Dale Wiese <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email <
>> [hidden email]>
>> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR
>>
>> Dale,
>>
>> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I cannot
>> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3 does a great
>> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.
>>
>> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am sure
>> there are folks here that can help you.
>>
>> Jack
>> W4GRJ
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
>> To: Elecraft Email
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
>>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3
>> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is
>> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB
>> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level.
>>
>> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but
>> the
>> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare
>> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective
>> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and
>> turning
>> a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen
>> to.
>>
>> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent
>> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up
>> [a
>> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
>> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard
>> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal
>> is
>> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
>>
>> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used
>> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is
>> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dale
>> N9XD
>>
>>
>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
>>> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
>>> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>>>
>>> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
>>> different algorithm.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
>>>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
>>>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
>>>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
>>>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
>>>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
>>>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
>>>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
>>>> be excessive.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
>>>> can pass along.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Pride in the USA!
>>>>
>>>> 73, Jim, W0EM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gary
> VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
> http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
> K3 #679
> For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dale Parfitt-3

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory

Hi Gary et al,

My K3 is quite new to me so I don't have a lot of comment yet on DSP. But I
do own a Clear Speech PCB and more recently the BHI board from the U.K. I
must say both are fabulous and I routinely use them for weak signal EME and
just general HF. I tend to think the BHI board is a tad better, but it is a
difficult call. I'll spend some time with the K3's DSP and do some
comparisons. At first blush though , I am pleased.

Dale W4OP

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Mike K2MK

Re: Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Jim HaRRIS

Hi Jim,

My experience is only with CW. If the band is just noisy and the signals are strong, turning on the NR results in more pleasing listening. But if the signals are generally weak like they might be on 10 or 15 meters, turning on the NR usually impairs readability at any setting. I have better success without NR. And yes I do increase volume with NR engaged but not as much as you have indicated.

73,
Mike K2MK

Jim HaRRIS wrote

Hi,

I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive.

Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along.

Thank you.

Take Pride in the USA!

73, Jim, W0EM

Jim Rogers, W4ATK

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by David Herring-3

Not throttled back here.

Jim, W4ATK

On Oct 4, 2010, at 6:20 PM, David Herring wrote:

> General question to those participating in this thread, when you
> engage NR, are you running RF gain maxed out, or are you adjusting
> RF gain back to the point where it just affects the S-meter?
>
> Sadly I'm off the air for a few days so I can't test myself, but I'm
> interested to know if throttling the RF gain has any bearing on the
> drop in volume.
>
> 73,
>
> Dave, AH6TD
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm...this topic appears from time to time and in the early days I
>> think it
>> was relevant. Since Lyle has has worked on the DSP and introduced
>> F1-x for
>> CW and 5-x up for SSB there has been a huge improvement.
>>
>> Perhaps the settings used by those experiencing a big drop in audio
>> levels
>> are different to mine BUT I have just checked 7.055 listening to an
>> Indonesian station close to the noise floor.
>>
>> The result is I hear a lot of band noise and a soft and difficult to
>> understand SSB conversation, when I use NR (5-2) the noise drops
>> significantly and the voice is marginally softer but now
>> understandable. and
>> a QSO would be easy to do providing the other station would be able
>> to copy
>> me.
>>
>> I am sure that Lyle will revisit the Algorithm and see if indeed any
>> improvements can be made BUT for now I am quite satisfied with the NR
>> functionality.
>>
>> Having said this, we all experience different band conditions and
>> what works
>> for one person may not work for all of us.
>>
>> My 2 cents worth...keep the change
>>
>> 73's
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:15 AM, WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2 S
>>> units if
>>> they
>>> are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear. I
>>> am running
>>> F
>>> 1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.
>>>
>>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>>> K5EWJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: W4GRJ <[hidden email]>
>>> To: Dale Wiese <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR
>>>
>>> Dale,
>>>
>>> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I
>>> cannot
>>> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3
>>> does a great
>>> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.
>>>
>>> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am
>>> sure
>>> there are folks here that can help you.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>> W4GRJ
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
>>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
>>> To: Elecraft Email
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
>>>
>>> Wayne,
>>>
>>> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for
>>> K3
>>> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he
>>> is
>>> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for
>>> SSB
>>> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall
>>> audio level.
>>>
>>> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops
>>> away, but
>>> the
>>> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It
>>> is rare
>>> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably
>>> effective
>>> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and
>>> turning
>>> a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant
>>> to listen
>>> to.
>>>
>>> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the
>>> apparent
>>> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be
>>> turned up
>>> [a
>>> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
>>> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it
>>> is hard
>>> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired
>>> signal
>>> is
>>> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
>>>
>>> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I
>>> have used
>>> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find
>>> which is
>>> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dale
>>> N9XD
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim,
>>>>
>>>> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
>>>> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
>>>> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>>>>
>>>> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
>>>> different algorithm.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Wayne
>>>> N6KR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
>>>>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
>>>>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
>>>>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
>>>>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
>>>>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change
>>>>> the
>>>>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that
>>>>> most
>>>>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
>>>>> be excessive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
>>>>> can pass along.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Pride in the USA!
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Jim, W0EM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/
>>>>> donate.html
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gary
>> VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
>> http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
>> K3 #679
>> For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

k5oai

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

I think perhaps we should be including what settings
are being used for not only the DSP settings,
but also AGC SLP and AGC THR as well as AF anf RF settings
all the above will make for different results when folks say,
it's louder or not

using head phones would also make for a big difference
in how high the volume needs to be

maybe not so much in the louder or not part
but in the just HOW much louder it needs to be
to maintain the level of volume heard prior to turning DR on

just to muddy the waters a bit, lol

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 10/4/2010 7:01 PM, JAMES ROGERS wrote:

> Not throttled back here.
>
> Jim, W4ATK
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 6:20 PM, David Herring wrote:
>
>> General question to those participating in this thread, when you
>> engage NR, are you running RF gain maxed out, or are you adjusting
>> RF gain back to the point where it just affects the S-meter?
>>
>> Sadly I'm off the air for a few days so I can't test myself, but I'm
>> interested to know if throttling the RF gain has any bearing on the
>> drop in volume.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Dave, AH6TD
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Gary Gregory<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmmm...this topic appears from time to time and in the early days I
>>> think it
>>> was relevant. Since Lyle has has worked on the DSP and introduced
>>> F1-x for
>>> CW and 5-x up for SSB there has been a huge improvement.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the settings used by those experiencing a big drop in audio
>>> levels
>>> are different to mine BUT I have just checked 7.055 listening to an
>>> Indonesian station close to the noise floor.
>>>
>>> The result is I hear a lot of band noise and a soft and difficult to
>>> understand SSB conversation, when I use NR (5-2) the noise drops
>>> significantly and the voice is marginally softer but now
>>> understandable. and
>>> a QSO would be easy to do providing the other station would be able
>>> to copy
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I am sure that Lyle will revisit the Algorithm and see if indeed any
>>> improvements can be made BUT for now I am quite satisfied with the NR
>>> functionality.
>>>
>>> Having said this, we all experience different band conditions and
>>> what works
>>> for one person may not work for all of us.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents worth...keep the change
>>>
>>> 73's
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:15 AM, WILLIS COOKE<[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2 S
>>>> units if
>>>> they
>>>> are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear. I
>>>> am running
>>>> F
>>>> 1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.
>>>>
>>>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>>>> K5EWJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: W4GRJ<[hidden email]>
>>>> To: Dale Wiese<[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email<
>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR
>>>>
>>>> Dale,
>>>>
>>>> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is outstanding. I
>>>> cannot
>>>> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3
>>>> does a great
>>>> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal level.
>>>>
>>>> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I am
>>>> sure
>>>> there are folks here that can help you.
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>> W4GRJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Wiese
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
>>>> To: Elecraft Email
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
>>>>
>>>> Wayne,
>>>>
>>>> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for
>>>> K3
>>>> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he
>>>> is
>>>> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for
>>>> SSB
>>>> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall
>>>> audio level.
>>>>
>>>> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops
>>>> away, but
>>>> the
>>>> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It
>>>> is rare
>>>> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably
>>>> effective
>>>> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and
>>>> turning
>>>> a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant
>>>> to listen
>>>> to.
>>>>
>>>> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the
>>>> apparent
>>>> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be
>>>> turned up
>>>> [a
>>>> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased.
>>>> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it
>>>> is hard
>>>> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired
>>>> signal
>>>> is
>>>> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
>>>>
>>>> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I
>>>> have used
>>>> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find
>>>> which is
>>>> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Dale
>>>> N9XD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
>>>>> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
>>>>> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>>>>>
>>>>> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
>>>>> different algorithm.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Wayne
>>>>> N6KR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
>>>>>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
>>>>>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
>>>>>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
>>>>>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
>>>>>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
>>>>>> be excessive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
>>>>>> can pass along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take Pride in the USA!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73, Jim, W0EM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/
>>>>>> donate.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary
>>> VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
>>> http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
>>> K3 #679
>>> For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Rogers, W4ATK

Re: Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Jim HaRRIS

These are my observations first with the K2 and ADSP, the the Flex
radios both 1000 and 5000A and then finally and more recently the
FT-2000 series of radios. You may take this for what it is worth....
This matter is highly subjective. One must remember that of the modes
available to us as amateurs, speech is the more closely associated
with noise. Noise reduction algorithms work on the basis of coherency
or lack thereof. A steady carrier would be an example of a coherent
signal. Speech lacks coherency. White noise is without coherence.
Therefore there has to be a compomrise when one applies noise
reduction to speech. The speech will be further compromised, the more
aggressive an algorithm is used.
Further, one might find an algorithm that works well at one site, may
be totally ineffective at another location. Noise as we as amateurs
know, can take on many personalities. Atmospherics, line noise,
thermal noise.... the list just goes on. I think most of us will find
within the algorithms and aggressiveness present in the K3, something
that works well for us. To achieve something that is perfect for all,
would seem to be very difficult indeed.
I have not been able to reproduce the drastic change in volume
reported by some here. I can only wait with you for the resolution of
your situation and provide the following information in the hope it
might shed some light. My K3 is a recent one, just a couple of weeks
old and is running the following firmware and software: MCU 4.06, DSP
2.60.

73s Jim, W4ATK
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Jim HaRRIS

Re: Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,

Thank you for your response. When I first got my radio I tried the F5 and up setting but found they, to me, muffled the audio. That was many revisions ago so I will give them another go. I've found in some instances it's better for me to not use the NR function than to use it and deal with it's "situations." I'm sure an external sound meter would show a reduction in volume. Perhaps in software it's possible to add a comparable amount of gain to boost the volume. I've tried setting the audio control near max and "riding" the RF gain and the results are similar to RF gain fully up and riding the audio gain.

BTW, a great notch function and a NB that really blanks noise. I probably use them more than the NR.

Take Pride in the USA!

73, Jim, W0EM

> CC: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Volume Level with NR
> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 09:13:54 -0700
>
> Jim,
>
> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the
> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
>
> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a
> different algorithm.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops
> > what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR
> > setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the
> > receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased
> > about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR
> > was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the
> > volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most
> > likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to
> > be excessive.
> >
> > Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they
> > can pass along.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> > Take Pride in the USA!
> >
> > 73, Jim, W0EM
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

riese-k3djc

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by Jim HaRRIS

how bout some gidelines for AGC settings

Bob K3DJC

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 19:24:49 -0500 Sam Morgan <[hidden email]>
writes:

> I think perhaps we should be including what settings
> are being used for not only the DSP settings,
> but also AGC SLP and AGC THR as well as AF anf RF settings
> all the above will make for different results when folks say,
> it's louder or not
>
> using head phones would also make for a big difference
> in how high the volume needs to be
>
> maybe not so much in the louder or not part
> but in the just HOW much louder it needs to be
> to maintain the level of volume heard prior to turning DR on
>
> just to muddy the waters a bit, lol
>
> GB & 73
> K5OAI
> Sam Morgan
>
> On 10/4/2010 7:01 PM, JAMES ROGERS wrote:
> > Not throttled back here.
> >
> > Jim, W4ATK
> >
> > On Oct 4, 2010, at 6:20 PM, David Herring wrote:
> >
> >> General question to those participating in this thread, when
> you
> >> engage NR, are you running RF gain maxed out, or are you
> adjusting
> >> RF gain back to the point where it just affects the S-meter?
> >>
> >> Sadly I'm off the air for a few days so I can't test myself, but
> I'm
> >> interested to know if throttling the RF gain has any bearing on
> the
> >> drop in volume.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Dave, AH6TD
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Oct 4, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Gary Gregory<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hmmm...this topic appears from time to time and in the early
> days I
> >>> think it
> >>> was relevant. Since Lyle has has worked on the DSP and
> introduced
> >>> F1-x for
> >>> CW and 5-x up for SSB there has been a huge improvement.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps the settings used by those experiencing a big drop in
> audio
> >>> levels
> >>> are different to mine BUT I have just checked 7.055 listening to
> an
> >>> Indonesian station close to the noise floor.
> >>>
> >>> The result is I hear a lot of band noise and a soft and
> difficult to
> >>> understand SSB conversation, when I use NR (5-2) the noise drops
> >>> significantly and the voice is marginally softer but now
> >>> understandable. and
> >>> a QSO would be easy to do providing the other station would be
> able
> >>> to copy
> >>> me.
> >>>
> >>> I am sure that Lyle will revisit the Algorithm and see if indeed
> any
> >>> improvements can be made BUT for now I am quite satisfied with
> the NR
> >>> functionality.
> >>>
> >>> Having said this, we all experience different band conditions
> and
> >>> what works
> >>> for one person may not work for all of us.
> >>>
> >>> My 2 cents worth...keep the change
> >>>
> >>> 73's
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:15 AM, WILLIS COOKE<[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> That sure is not what I have observed. My signals drop about 2
> S
> >>>> units if
> >>>> they
> >>>> are strong. If they are near the noise level they disappear.
> I
> >>>> am running
> >>>> F
> >>>> 1-1. It is worse if I run a higher NR level.
> >>>>
> >>>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> >>>> K5EWJ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: W4GRJ<[hidden email]>
> >>>> To: Dale Wiese<[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email<
> >>>> [hidden email]>
> >>>> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 4:54:21 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR
> >>>>
> >>>> Dale,
> >>>>
> >>>> Just for reference, my experience with the K3 NR is
> outstanding. I
> >>>> cannot
> >>>> notice any reduced volume on the tuned signal. The NR on my K3
> >>>> does a great
> >>>> job of whacking out the noise without effecting the signal
> level.
> >>>>
> >>>> You may need to do some checking of settings and calibration, I
> am
> >>>> sure
> >>>> there are folks here that can help you.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jack
> >>>> W4GRJ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: [hidden email]
> >>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale
> Wiese
> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:31 PM
> >>>> To: Elecraft Email
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
> >>>>
> >>>> Wayne,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area
> for
> >>>> K3
> >>>> improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what
> he
> >>>> is
> >>>> hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least
> for
> >>>> SSB
> >>>> reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall
> >>>> audio level.
> >>>>
> >>>> When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops
> >>>> away, but
> >>>> the
> >>>> perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same.
> It
> >>>> is rare
> >>>> that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is
> reasonably
> >>>> effective
> >>>> for turning a marginal signal into something that can be
> copied, and
> >>>> turning
> >>>> a strong signal with high band noise into something more
> pleasant
> >>>> to listen
> >>>> to.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the
> >>>> apparent
> >>>> voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control
> be
> >>>> turned up
> >>>> [a
> >>>> lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also
> increased.
> >>>> Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but
> it
> >>>> is hard
> >>>> to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the
> desired
> >>>> signal
> >>>> is
> >>>> improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much.
> >>>>
> >>>> The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products
> I
> >>>> have used
> >>>> is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I
> find
> >>>> which is
> >>>> sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more
> effective.
> >>>>
> >>>> 73,
> >>>> Dale
> >>>> N9XD
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Jim,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of
> the
> >>>>> drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a
> >>>>> psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x
> use a
> >>>>> different algorithm.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 73,
> >>>>> Wayne
> >>>>> N6KR
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level
> drops
> >>>>>> what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use
> NR
> >>>>>> setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute
> the
> >>>>>> receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be
> increased
> >>>>>> about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before
> the NR
> >>>>>> was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually
> change
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize
> that
> >>>>>> most
> >>>>>> likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this
> seems to
> >>>>>> be excessive.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations
> they
> >>>>>> can pass along.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Take Pride in the USA!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 73, Jim, W0EM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/
> >>>>>> donate.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>>> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> Elecraft mailing list
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> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>> Please help support this email list:
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> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Gary
> >>> VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
> >>> http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
> >>> K3 #679
> >>> For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>

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wayne burdick

Re: Volume Level with NR

Administrator

Bob,

In general I recommend just sticking with the defaults for all AGC
menu entries. We worked hard on these :)

I'm sure others will have some suggestions for you.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Oct 4, 2010, at 6:50 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> how bout some gidelines for AGC settings
>
> Bob K3DJC
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [Elecraft K3] Volume Level with NR

In reply to this post by riese-k3djc

Bob,

While Wayne has said that the default settings were well thought out and
will serve most operators well, I liked the AGC response of my K2 which
made strong signals have stronger audio than weaker signals.
Thanks to Jack Smith who characterized the K3 AGC and posted charts on
his website www.cliftonlaboratories.com, I set my AGC SLP to 002 and AGC
THR to 008 and I am a happy camper. It reduces the band noise rise
between signals and as I indicated, I just like it that way - your
mileage may vary, and I invite you to experiment - Jack's charts can
give you some guidance and keep you from straying too far from a decent
response curve.

I am not absolutely certain this relates directly to NR, and I was
tempted to change the subject line, but as you can see, I left it as-is.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/4/2010 9:50 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> how bout some gidelines for AGC settings
>
> Bob K3DJC
>
>
>
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