Wayne on KNBx

[Joe Squarzini]

Wayne, regarding your post on an upgraded KNB2. The time has come for all
of us in the kit building community to embrace surface mount. We need to
start installing these devices ourselves. It's really not that hard. I've
done it and it is easy to do if you are careful and have good instruction.
Elecraft is the gold standard in kit building. The time has come for SMT in
kits. The KNBx is the place to start. I know you are fearful of allowing us
hamfisted hams to start installing SMT. Be not afraid! Sign me up as a beta
tester. The option will be a sell-out. 73 Joe K4AA


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[Dan Barker]

And, the big bugaboo of kitting smt devices (no markings) is easily
remedied.

You get the parts "sorted" on strips. Use spray paint!

If you need more than 8 colors, I'd be quite surprised.

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456


<snip>
The time has come for all of us in the kit building community to embrace
surface mount.
</snip>

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[EricJ-2]

A few thoughts....

Maybe Elecraft is the gold standard for kit building because they DON'T use
SMTs.

Maybe many hams don't consider building with SMTs relaxing or fun although
THEY CAN DO IT. It may not be that hard, but for many it is not much FUN.

Maybe Elecraft realizes the number one kit building problems (unsoldered and
poorly soldered joints, wrong part installed) will dramatically increase
with very tiny, cryptically marked or unmarked parts that often look
IDENTICAL. Rework will be a nightmare for Elecraft and the hams that build
the kits.

Maybe many hams don't have and are unwilling to invest in the specialized
equipment needed to safely and easily rework, if not build with SMTs.

Maybe Elecraft is concerned about losing their customer base which may not
be ready to embrace SMT assembly for MANY reasons.

Maybe we forget that SMTs were developed for MACHINE assembly, not hand
assembly. While "builders for hire" might be an alternative, maybe it would
be cheaper for customers for Elecraft to hire it out to MACHINE assemblers.

Maybe quality builders for hire are not interested in hand building complex
kits with SMTs.

Maybe monoband transceivers that fit inside a 9V battery case are
interesting novelties, but not of much use for hams who build the gear
Elecraft made their name with.

I'll pass on the beta testing. I'll probably pass on an SMT kit. I build for
fun. If it isn't fun, I might as well get one built better than hand
assembly by some machine.

Eric
KE6US




-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Squarzini
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Wayne on KNBx

Wayne, regarding your post on an upgraded KNB2. The time has come for all of
us in the kit building community to embrace surface mount. We need to start
installing these devices ourselves. It's really not that hard. I've done it
and it is easy to do if you are careful and have good instruction.
Elecraft is the gold standard in kit building. The time has come for SMT in
kits. The KNBx is the place to start. I know you are fearful of allowing us
hamfisted hams to start installing SMT. Be not afraid! Sign me up as a beta
tester. The option will be a sell-out. 73 Joe K4AA


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[Vic K2VCO]

Joe Squarzini wrote:

> Wayne, regarding your post on an upgraded KNB2. The time has come for
> all of us in the kit building community to embrace surface mount. We
> need to start installing these devices ourselves. It's really not that
> hard.

There's a difference between replacing a couple of SMDs, as many of us
have done, and populating a whole board -- especially if you are using
the smaller ones and they are closely packed.  My personal feeling is
that I would not want to tackle anything more than a very simple project
using SMDs.

The full advantage of using these devices is not felt unless they can be
packed densely anyway.  If you look at examples of boards produced
commercially by automated processes, it's hard to imagine duplicating
that kind of product by hand.  If you have the Elecraft DSP, for
example, look at the daughterboard containing the processor.

It would be possible to produce a board with an open layout and specify
only the largest sizes of SMDs.  But the frustration factor (consider
soldering the pins of a microprocessor or other large IC!) would be much
greater and the advantage small.

Just my opinion.

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco


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[Mike Morrow-3]

Eric wrote:

>Maybe many hams don't consider building with SMTs relaxing or fun although
>THEY CAN DO IT. It may not be that hard, but for many it is not much FUN.
>
>snip many other good points
>
>Maybe we forget that SMTs were developed for MACHINE assembly, not hand
>assembly.
>
>snip many more good points
>
>I might as well get one built better than hand assembly by some machine.

Hi Eric,

You make many excellent and well-stated points.  I agree with every one of
them.

But watch out for the ire of the "wage holy war for SMT" folks out there who
will imply that you're reactionary, ignorant, stupid, out of date, out of
step, lazy, not properly motivated, unskilled, etc. because you won't do
"SMT."

I love kit SMT PCBs...as long as the SMT parts have been machine
pre-assembled on the PCB before I have to put other parts on the PCB
(example...MFJ Cub QRP kits).   That's the appropriate and intended use of
SMT technology.

Any kit that requires manual SMT application above one or two large parts is
a kludge design that I would *never* buy under any circumstance.

73,
Mike / KK5F

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[EricJ-2]

Heh heh heh. I've been their target on QRP-L. Almost 50 years ago, my
friends gave me a cigarette to try. I did. I puked for hours afterward. They
all laughed and said I'd get used to it. I asked them, "But why would I want
to?" It's remained a good test for me in other things in my life.

SMTs were made for cheap machine assembly or to save space where it is
important to save space.

As hams, we have different requirements than consumer electronic
manufacturers. We can pop for the 5 cent resistor instead of the 2 cent SMT
equivalent. And there is no labor saving hand assembling with SMTs. If
anything it takes longer. Our gear is usually large enough to meet our needs
for tuning knobs, etc. so space is rarely the overriding consideration. I've
built some SMT kits that weren't significantly smaller than they would have
been using traditional 1/8 resistors mounted on end. And I've built some
that were very small, but could easily have been twice as big and still fit
where they were supposed to go. SMTs for SMT's sake is pointless.

I'm NOT saying they have no place in ham radio. Where the overriding
objective is small size, such as the ATS-III, SMTs are the only way to go
and it is deemed worth it for a relatively small number of experienced
builders.

Anyway, I don't bother with SMT kits anymore for one very simple fact. They
aren't fun for me. I'm a hobbyist, not a manufacturer.

Elecraft and other kit builders are selling fun as much as they are selling
ham gear.

Eric
KE6US

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 8:57 AM
To: EricJ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Wayne on KNBx

Eric wrote:

>Maybe many hams don't consider building with SMTs relaxing or fun
>although THEY CAN DO IT. It may not be that hard, but for many it is not
much FUN.
>
>snip many other good points
>
>Maybe we forget that SMTs were developed for MACHINE assembly, not hand
>assembly.
>
>snip many more good points
>
>I might as well get one built better than hand assembly by some machine.


Hi Eric,

You make many excellent and well-stated points.  I agree with every one of
them.

But watch out for the ire of the "wage holy war for SMT" folks out there who
will imply that you're reactionary, ignorant, stupid, out of date, out of
step, lazy, not properly motivated, unskilled, etc. because you won't do
"SMT."

I love kit SMT PCBs...as long as the SMT parts have been machine
pre-assembled on the PCB before I have to put other parts on the PCB
(example...MFJ Cub QRP kits).   That's the appropriate and intended use of
SMT technology.

Any kit that requires manual SMT application above one or two large parts is
a kludge design that I would *never* buy under any circumstance.

73,
Mike / KK5F

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[Andrea Borgia]

EricJ wrote:

> built some SMT kits that weren't significantly smaller than they would have
> been using traditional 1/8 resistors mounted on end. And I've built some

Conversely, I have built an incredibly small adapter into a DB9
minishell using ordinary components, just for the sake of "let's see if
it can be done" ;-)

As long as plain through-hole components are still available, I won't
feel the urge to try SMT-by-hand.

B73,
Andrea.

--
Homepage: http://andrea.borgia.bo.it     /    Amateur radio: IZ4FHT
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[Neal Campbell]

 I had a hard enough time finding a magnifier for the normal components (yes
I am that old!) so SMDs are way beyond my meager eyesight and shakey hands.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EricJ
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:42 PM
To: 'Mike Morrow'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Wayne on KNBx

Heh heh heh. I've been their target on QRP-L. Almost 50 years ago, my
friends gave me a cigarette to try. I did. I puked for hours afterward. They
all laughed and said I'd get used to it. I asked them, "But why would I want
to?" It's remained a good test for me in other things in my life.

SMTs were made for cheap machine assembly or to save space where it is
important to save space.

As hams, we have different requirements than consumer electronic
manufacturers. We can pop for the 5 cent resistor instead of the 2 cent SMT
equivalent. And there is no labor saving hand assembling with SMTs. If
anything it takes longer. Our gear is usually large enough to meet our needs
for tuning knobs, etc. so space is rarely the overriding consideration. I've
built some SMT kits that weren't significantly smaller than they would have
been using traditional 1/8 resistors mounted on end. And I've built some
that were very small, but could easily have been twice as big and still fit
where they were supposed to go. SMTs for SMT's sake is pointless.

I'm NOT saying they have no place in ham radio. Where the overriding
objective is small size, such as the ATS-III, SMTs are the only way to go
and it is deemed worth it for a relatively small number of experienced
builders.

Anyway, I don't bother with SMT kits anymore for one very simple fact. They
aren't fun for me. I'm a hobbyist, not a manufacturer.

Elecraft and other kit builders are selling fun as much as they are selling
ham gear.

Eric
KE6US

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 8:57 AM
To: EricJ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Wayne on KNBx

Eric wrote:

>Maybe many hams don't consider building with SMTs relaxing or fun
>although THEY CAN DO IT. It may not be that hard, but for many it is
>not
much FUN.
>
>snip many other good points
>
>Maybe we forget that SMTs were developed for MACHINE assembly, not hand
>assembly.
>
>snip many more good points
>
>I might as well get one built better than hand assembly by some machine.


Hi Eric,

You make many excellent and well-stated points.  I agree with every one of
them.

But watch out for the ire of the "wage holy war for SMT" folks out there who
will imply that you're reactionary, ignorant, stupid, out of date, out of
step, lazy, not properly motivated, unskilled, etc. because you won't do
"SMT."

I love kit SMT PCBs...as long as the SMT parts have been machine
pre-assembled on the PCB before I have to put other parts on the PCB
(example...MFJ Cub QRP kits).   That's the appropriate and intended use of
SMT technology.

Any kit that requires manual SMT application above one or two large parts is
a kludge design that I would *never* buy under any circumstance.

73,
Mike / KK5F

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[Thom LaCosta]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, EricJ wrote:

> I'll pass on the beta testing. I'll probably pass on an SMT kit. I build for
> fun. If it isn't fun, I might as well get one built better than hand
> assembly by some machine.

But, Maybe some of us that would like to operate who can't now because the
existing noise blanker doesn't do the job for us would, perish the thought, buy
an assembled noise blanker.

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page,
Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel
Elecraft Owners Database
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Gotta get my two cents in here toooooo......

I'll try anything once (except something that is
detrimental to my health)...but...it seems that if the
designer needs more components to make something
work...well why not make the everything bigger.  Small
little radios are nice...but...large radios will work
just as well.  Really, SMT is designed to get more
stuff in a small place...well...if you need more stuff
to make the circuit work...then use a bigger space and
use bigger components for us who are SMT challenged.

Of course this argument is stupid if you consider what
it would take to make a K2 with tubes....oh yes it
would be a KWM2A on steroids.

Lee - K0WA


Common sense is in short supply - get some and use it.
If you can't find any common sense, ask for help from
somebody that has some common sense. - Lee Buller
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[EricJ-2]

I have no problem with that. I'd probably buy it myself fully assembled to
contend with my S5-S8 afternoon noise level. My last sentence quoted below
actually says that.

BUT, if Elecraft starts offering more and more pressembled kits, don't they
begin to fundamentally change what Elecraft means to hams? And would they
lose the "niche advantage" they enjoy right now? That is, do they just
become an American version of Yaesu/Kenwood/Icom/whatever packaging Made in
China circuit boards in gee-whiz cases? I don't know the answer to that.

Eric
KE6US



-----Original Message-----
From: Thom R LaCosta [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:35 PM
To: EricJ
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Wayne on KNBx

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, EricJ wrote:

> I'll pass on the beta testing. I'll probably pass on an SMT kit. I
> build for fun. If it isn't fun, I might as well get one built better
> than hand assembly by some machine.

But, Maybe some of us that would like to operate who can't now because the
existing noise blanker doesn't do the job for us would, perish the thought,
buy an assembled noise blanker.

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page, Free Classified
Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel Elecraft Owners Database
www.tlchost.net/hosting/  ***  Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, EricJ wrote:

> I have no problem with that. I'd probably buy it myself fully assembled to
> contend with my S5-S8 afternoon noise level. My last sentence quoted below
> actually says that.

Sorry if I mis-read it.

>
> BUT, if Elecraft starts offering more and more pressembled kits, don't they
> begin to fundamentally change what Elecraft means to hams? And would they
> lose the "niche advantage" they enjoy right now? That is, do they just
> become an American version of Yaesu/Kenwood/Icom/whatever packaging Made in
> China circuit boards in gee-whiz cases? I don't know the answer to that.

Interesting problem....that's why I suggested that some enterprizing person(s)
offer pre-built/kit noise blankers.

I suppose the real purists wouldn't buy a mike or paddle from ELecraft since
they are either third party or pre-assembled.

Gee....your noise level is only S8....that's pretty quiet(g).

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page,
Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel
Elecraft Owners Database
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[Stewart Baker]

Sorry, I must have missed something. Why would a KNBx have to be built using ALL
SMT. There is a fair amount of vertical (and some horizontal) space where the
existing KNB2 fits. I have found no space issue with my Pre-Filter. The
requested noise blanker could be a hybrid like the KDSP2, with a pre assembled
DSP part in SMT, and the rest,  conventional components. That should satisfy
both camps, assuming that it got rid of the noise...

73
Stewart G3RXQ

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:40:06 -0700 (PDT), Lee Buller wrote:

>
>
> Gotta get my two cents in here toooooo......
>
> I'll try anything once (except something that is
> detrimental to my health)...but...it seems that if the
> designer needs more components to make something
> work...well why not make the everything bigger.  Small
> little radios are nice...but...large radios will work
> just as well.  Really, SMT is designed to get more
> stuff in a small place...well...if you need more stuff
> to make the circuit work...then use a bigger space and
> use bigger components for us who are SMT challenged.
>
> Of course this argument is stupid if you consider what
> it would take to make a K2 with tubes....oh yes it
> would be a KWM2A on steroids.
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
> Common sense is in short supply - get some and use it.
> If you can't find any common sense, ask for help from
> somebody that has some common sense. - Lee Buller
> _______________________________________________
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>
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