Why I won't purchase K3
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Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community,
I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons I felt like chirping in. I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and individually acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a baby or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty much the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure whether I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them more than anything...) My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, K2, KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each and every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers to hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply trying to express my feelings... I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I like K1 more, don't ask me why.) -- Alexey Kats (neko) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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*Interesting comment.
BUT, I didn't spend my hard earned dollars to 'build' something just for the pleasure of building. I bought my K3 to USE it. Same reason I bought all my previous radios. Building something from scratch is fun and yes you learn a heck of a lot from the experience...to each his own eh? 73's Gary * On 6 March 2011 23:30, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> wrote: > Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, > > I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my > posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons > I felt like chirping in. > > I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building > things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded > K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling > my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and > individually > acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a > baby > or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly > make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. > > Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to > the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty > much > the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me > uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. > It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates > arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure > whether > I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them > more than anything...) > > My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't > honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, > K2, > KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went > wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who > was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each > and > every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the > assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers > to > hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. > I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. > > I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply > trying > to express my feelings... > > I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I > like K1 more, don't ask me why.) > > -- > Alexey Kats (neko) > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- *VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!!* ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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As you said - to each his own...
As long as we recognize the fun of using a radio to be separate form the fun of building a radio we are agreeing with each other. And, also, thank you for reading my words so early in the Sunday mornin... night? On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote: > *Interesting comment. > > BUT, I didn't spend my hard earned dollars to 'build' something just for > the pleasure of building. > > I bought my K3 to USE it. > > Same reason I bought all my previous radios. Building something from > scratch is fun and yes you learn a heck of a lot from the experience...to > each his own eh? > > 73's > > Gary > * > -- Alexey Kats (neko) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
Hello Alexey,
Very good that you have put up such an agressive title. No worry, we often hear opinions from the opposite side in this mail reflector. I like to build as well and the building process will give me the chance to understand more about the architecture of modern radio. However, due to the wide use surface mount technology, it will be too difficult for an untrained amateur like myself to handle surface mount work for modern radio. The modular design of K3 is something that I can manage. I bought my latest K3 from the second hand market and I needed to do some upgrade modification myself. I find this minor soldering work is quite fun indeed. This is all I can handle. A basic K3 has already covered most of the functions of a fully fit K2 and in similar price range. Therefore, I would go for a basic K3 instead of a fully fit K2. cheers, Johnny VR2XMC ________________________________ 寄件人﹕ Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> 收件人﹕ [hidden email] 傳送日期﹕ 2011/3/6 (日) 9:30:54 PM 主題： [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons I felt like chirping in. I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and individually acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a baby or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty much the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure whether I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them more than anything...) My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, K2, KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each and every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers to hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply trying to express my feelings... I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I like K1 more, don't ask me why.) -- Alexey Kats (neko) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Thank you, I agree, the price of basic K3 is in the same range as of loaded
K2 (a bit more, but still comparable). The thing is I like to BUILD stuff, and I always compare the cost of buying equipment against the fun of building it with my own two hands. So, when it comes down to cost-to-performance analysis - K3 wins hands down. It's only when one tries to justify the "kit" form it starts making little to no sense unless the only thing is saving the money part. I simply can't imagine anybody being extremely proud of following instructions of which screw to tighten first. (Please, don't feel offended - it was an exaggeration.) Sorry, I think I need to get some sleep now. On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 6:44 AM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello Alexey, > > Very good that you have put up such an agressive title. > > No worry, we often hear opinions from the opposite side in this mail > reflector. I like to build as well and the building process will give me > the chance to understand more about the architecture of modern radio. > > However, due to the wide use surface mount technology, it will be too > difficult for an untrained amateur like myself to handle surface mount work > for modern radio. The modular design of K3 is something that I can manage. > > I bought my latest K3 from the second hand market and I needed to do some > upgrade modification myself. I find this minor soldering work is quite fun > indeed. This is all I can handle. > > A basic K3 has already covered most of the functions of a fully fit K2 and > in similar price range. Therefore, I would go for a basic K3 instead of a > fully fit K2. > > > cheers, > > > Johnny VR2XMC > > > ------------------------------ > *寄件人﹕* Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> > *收件人﹕* [hidden email] > *傳送日期﹕* 2011/3/6 (日) 9:30:54 PM > *主題：* [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 > > Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, > > I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my > posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons > I felt like chirping in. > > I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building > things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded > K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling > my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and > individually > acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a > baby > or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly > make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. > > Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to > the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty > much > the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me > uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. > It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates > arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure > whether > I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them > more than anything...) > > My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't > honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, > K2, > KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went > wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who > was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each > and > every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the > assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers > to > hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. > I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. > > I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply > trying > to express my feelings... > > I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I > like K1 more, don't ask me why.) > > -- > Alexey Kats (neko) > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > -- Alexey Kats (neko) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Alexy,
When we first started designing the K3, we agonized over the question of whether to offer a "full" kit version -- one that required a lot of soldering. But it quickly became apparent that this was incompatible with other goals for the radio. We needed to use surface-mount devices throughout in order to meet performance, size, and weight goals. An all through-hole version, or even a "half-through-hole" version, would have been twice as large and simply too expensive to be a successful product. Small kits using SMDs are great, and I highly recommend that anyone interested in surface-mount technology try their hand at building one. There are many SMD kit projects available from QRP clubs, etc. But a kit with many hundreds of SMDs would be a support disaster. The parts are easy to lose, and hard for many people to install. Fine- pitch SMD ICs are a challenge to install even for very experienced builders with excellent equipment. Aligning and testing such a kit would require a lot of lab gear. So we accepted the notion that a radio like the K3, as a kit, would require a higher level of integration. There was an existence proof for the utility of such kits: do-it-yourself PCs. Many companies offer modules that can be put together with a motherboard to create a computer with nearly any level of performance and features. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people who have built PCs this way, and clearly many of them enjoy doing so. The K3 kit may lack solder, but it is still a very "hands-on" experience: - there are hundreds of parts involved, including modules, controls, hardware, multi-part enclosure, etc.; the kit takes around 8 hours to complete - the K3 has built-in test equipment that the builder learns about and uses as they go - the builder becomes very aware of the various stages and modules needed to make a radio, and can delve further into the theory of operation or schematics if desired - modifying or updating the K3 is easier once you've been through the experience Up until the last minute, we worried that we might have a mutiny on our hands among "full-kit" devotees. But only two of them complained, at least publicly, so we breathed a huge sigh of relief. You now have the distinction of being #3 on my list of those who like the idea of building their own advanced radio completely from scratch, should we ever have the courage to explore that path :) 73, Wayne N6KR On Mar 6, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Alexey Kats wrote: > Thank you, I agree, the price of basic K3 is in the same range as of > loaded > K2 (a bit more, but still comparable). The thing is I like to BUILD > stuff, > and I always compare the cost of buying equipment against the fun of > building it with my own two hands. > > So, when it comes down to cost-to-performance analysis - K3 wins > hands down. > It's only when one tries to justify the "kit" form it starts making > little > to no sense unless the only thing is saving the money part. Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
I think you must regress one further stage if you want to claim that you "built" something and that is to also "design" it.
What is being discussed here is really "assembly" of parts to make a finished product designed by someone else, with the argument being over how much assembly is left to the "builder." Wes N7WS --- On Sun, 3/6/11, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> wrote: > Thank you, I agree, the price of > basic K3 is in the same range as of loaded > K2 (a bit more, but still comparable). The thing is I like > to BUILD stuff, > and I always compare the cost of buying equipment against > the fun of > building it with my own two hands. > > So, when it comes down to cost-to-performance analysis - K3 > wins hands down. > It's only when one tries to justify the "kit" form it > starts making little > to no sense unless the only thing is saving the money part. > I simply can't > imagine anybody being extremely proud of following > instructions of which > screw to tighten first. (Please, don't feel offended - it > was an > exaggeration.) > > Sorry, I think I need to get some sleep now. > > On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 6:44 AM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > Hello Alexey, > > > > Very good that you have put up such an agressive > title. > > > > No worry, we often hear opinions from the opposite > side in this mail > > reflector. I like to build as well and the > building process will give me > > the chance to understand more about the architecture > of modern radio. > > > > However, due to the wide use surface mount technology, > it will be too > > difficult for an untrained amateur like myself to > handle surface mount work > > for modern radio. The modular design of K3 is > something that I can manage. > > > > I bought my latest K3 from the second hand market and > I needed to do some > > upgrade modification myself. I find this minor > soldering work is quite fun > > indeed. This is all I can handle. > > > > A basic K3 has already covered most of the functions > of a fully fit K2 and > > in similar price range. Therefore, I would go > for a basic K3 instead of a > > fully fit K2. > > > > > > cheers, > > > > > > Johnny VR2XMC > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
You now have
the distinction of being #3 on my list of those who like the idea of building their own advanced radio completely from scratch, should we ever have the courage to explore that path :) make that 4! it could be called the K4 and 4 feet in width wt5y ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
No offense meant (seriously), but I'm not sure why your definition of "build it yourself" must include soldering, which I perceive as just as mechanical operation as tightening screws. Yes ... it is a different skill requiring dexterity and care, especially in the case of surface mount devices, but it bears no more relationship to the electronic aspect of a kit than does aligning a connector. There is just a lot more of it to do. If the percent of effort in assembly is a required part of your definition, fine ... but there is no reason why you can't learn every bit as much about the theory of operation of the K3 as you can with the K2 except that the K3 is a heck of a lot more complex. The schematics for the K3 are all available and there are folks on this reflector who would gladly step forward with insight into the tough parts. Now then, if you were required to design part of the rig yourself, or write some of the processing code, or align the various stages ... then I would say that you had a hand in homebrewing your rig. Otherwise, I think you're simply making an arbitrary distinction between two purely mechanical tasks. You also mention that you want to make "sure that it is in the best state I could possibly make it." I can fully understand that philosophy, but for a rig as complex as the K3 there is no way you could do that manually. Modern automated soldering of fine pitch SMD's is going to vastly beat anything you can do by hand even if you were a world class surgeon with excellent eyesight, steady hands, and great tools ... if for no other reason than the odds of a mistake on the zillions of joints involved. Again, I'm not knocking your preferences, and they are exactly the reason that lots of people still prefer to design and build their own QRP rigs. You've chosen the middle ground between that and the K3 by deciding that you want to stuff a lot of parts on a PC board but don't want to settle for less performance than the K2 offers. That's probably a very good choice on your part, but it's an arbitrary selection on a continuum of complexity. 73, Dave AB7E p.s. I don't find your comments insulting at all ... I just find them to be a bit curious and arbitrary. On 3/6/2011 6:30 AM, Alexey Kats wrote: > Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, > > I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my > posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons > I felt like chirping in. > > I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building > things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded > K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling > my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and individually > acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a baby > or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly > make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. > > Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to > the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty much > the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me > uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. > It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates > arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure whether > I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them > more than anything...) > > My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't > honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, K2, > KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went > wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who > was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each and > every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the > assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers to > hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. > I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. > > I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply trying > to express my feelings... > > I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I > like K1 more, don't ask me why.) > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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David,
Each to his own, but here are some of my thoughts on the subject: I have long thought that providing a kit with a board for construction took much of the thrill out of building a project. For that reason I prefer manhatten construction or "ugly" construction for my small projects, it is informative, fun and one can exercise as much creativity as desired. When boards are provided and used, the builder is slaved to the parts size choices of the designer as well as the interconnections. Any creative changes would involve cutting traces on the board. For me, kits are for large complex projects, and I will happily live with what the designer has created. For smaller projects, I prefer to create my own and use whatever size parts I have in my well-stocked junkbox. The break-point depends on my energy level and available time. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2011 11:37 AM, David Gilbert wrote: > No offense meant (seriously), but I'm not sure why your definition of > "build it yourself" must include soldering, which I perceive as just as > mechanical operation as tightening screws. Yes ... it is a different > skill requiring dexterity and care, especially in the case of surface > mount devices, but it bears no more relationship to the electronic > aspect of a kit than does aligning a connector. There is just a lot > more of it to do. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
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In reply to this post by David Gilbert
Hi All,
No criticism of Elecraft as I am a convert to the K3 but building your own means home brew not building a kit. Heathkits, were always fun and yes you learned something from the step by step assembly but never so much as you learned from scrounging exchange parts, laying out the chassis, drilling cutting filing and building from scratch. A design of your own takes things even further down this path but even using a magazine article project counts as home brew but not kits. I like kits, I like my assembled K3 and I like home brew but have not done any not in a shameful length of time. Forgive an old goat of 51 years in the hobby. I do understand that the K2 does involve more work than many a kit including some coil winding. Elecraft makes good gear and good kits. Mechanical assembly of the K3 may well help when trouble shooting in future. 73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: 06 March 2011 16:38 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 No offense meant (seriously), but I'm not sure why your definition of "build it yourself" must include soldering, which I perceive as just as mechanical operation as tightening screws. Yes ... it is a different skill requiring dexterity and care, especially in the case of surface mount devices, but it bears no more relationship to the electronic aspect of a kit than does aligning a connector. There is just a lot more of it to do. If the percent of effort in assembly is a required part of your definition, fine ... but there is no reason why you can't learn every bit as much about the theory of operation of the K3 as you can with the K2 except that the K3 is a heck of a lot more complex. The schematics for the K3 are all available and there are folks on this reflector who would gladly step forward with insight into the tough parts. Now then, if you were required to design part of the rig yourself, or write some of the processing code, or align the various stages ... then I would say that you had a hand in homebrewing your rig. Otherwise, I think you're simply making an arbitrary distinction between two purely mechanical tasks. You also mention that you want to make "sure that it is in the best state I could possibly make it." I can fully understand that philosophy, but for a rig as complex as the K3 there is no way you could do that manually. Modern automated soldering of fine pitch SMD's is going to vastly beat anything you can do by hand even if you were a world class surgeon with excellent eyesight, steady hands, and great tools ... if for no other reason than the odds of a mistake on the zillions of joints involved. Again, I'm not knocking your preferences, and they are exactly the reason that lots of people still prefer to design and build their own QRP rigs. You've chosen the middle ground between that and the K3 by deciding that you want to stuff a lot of parts on a PC board but don't want to settle for less performance than the K2 offers. That's probably a very good choice on your part, but it's an arbitrary selection on a continuum of complexity. 73, Dave AB7E p.s. I don't find your comments insulting at all ... I just find them to be a bit curious and arbitrary. On 3/6/2011 6:30 AM, Alexey Kats wrote: > Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, > > I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my > posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons > I felt like chirping in. > > I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building > things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded > K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling > my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and individually > acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a baby > or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly > make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. > > Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to > the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty much > the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me > uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. > It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates > arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure whether > I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them > more than anything...) > > My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't > honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, K2, > KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went > wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who > was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each and > every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the > assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers to > hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. > I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. > > I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply trying > to express my feelings... > > I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I > like K1 more, don't ask me why.) > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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If you don't start from Maxwell's equations you're just an appliance
operator. ;-) jim ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
Don't think of it as a kit. Just consider that Elecraft offered you a way to save $200 by doing some of the labor that they would have to do on your part. They built the subassemblies, they incorporated into the design a way to do an automatic alignment (an amazing thing to see in action, by the way). This made it possible for you to have the exact same radio if you assemble it as if they did. So if you want to work for $25 an hour they will employ you for 8 hours. XYL and I took the $200 savings. I read the book and she put it together. She had never built anything in her life before. She doesn't feel like she built a high tech product. All she learned was the difference between a 4-40 and a 6-32 screw. But she has a little bit of a fondness for the K3. Rick K2XT ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
Alexey, Welcome to the world of SMD. Are you prepared to sit down and solder a 45 pin SMD processor to a board? I'm sorry, but there's just no way for that to happen. I think that perhaps you can find some enjoyment in doing the Mods to the rig as time rolls on. For example, I took my own DSP board, de-soldered all of the SMD components and other non SMD components that were required to be replaced in order to do the Daughter board and Low Freq. Audio modifications. Trust me, that was no walk in the park. Sure, I could have sent my board back to Elecraft to have it swapped out for $100, but instead I sat down with my 700Watt iron and went to town on my own. I can tell you from that experience alone, I would NEVER want to have to construct the entire K3 rig if I had to place 500 plus SMD resistors, or 900 plus SMD Capacitors etc... The chance of loosing them as you're putting them onto the board alone is a HUGE challenge. Plus it 'can' require the use of special tools that most people just don't have. Soldering an SMD resistor 0402 size is like trying to write on a grain of salt, it's just not going to happen for everyone my friend. I just don't think that you can come to expect you'll ever be able to make a fully functional Microprocessor controlled DSP rig from a non assembled kit any longer. You're idea on kits is antiquated now. I certainly know that 98% of the Elecrafters out there would never be able to do it (sorry 98% of Elecraftors out there).. One other thing I would have to disagree with you Alexey, I built my K3 from the kit, and I can tell you from that experience alone I was able to understand FAR more than others that received theirs as a pre-built unit. When it came time to do the Mods, or trouble shoot another K3 in order to repair the Hardware, I had a MUCH better understanding of exactly what was wrong and how to go about 1-understanding what each board was, and what it did, 2- getting to the bad board in the rig, 3- removing and repairing/replacing it properly, 4 - Trouble shooting with a provided schematic and understanding the circuit. Sure, I didn't put every resistor or Cap in the unit, but holding each of those boards in my hand, and then reading about what each of them did made my understanding for the K3 a MUCH bigger growth and knowledge experience than someone who bought a pre-built box they've never seen the inside of. Stuffing and soldering of the kit is not the learning experience, it's how you go about understanding each of the boards that you're putting in. Pick up the schematic and read it for each of the boards.. Those are still provided to you.. Anyone can stuff a PCB and solder down the components, but that by no means says that they have an understanding for what the actual circuit does. That's something only the user can choose to learn on his own. If everyone that stuffed a board and soldered understood what they were doing, how the design was made, and how the circuit works we would be paying a LOT more for our electronics these days.. Because there are little old ladies (no offence little old ladies out there) would be making a whole lot more than $10 an hour in the USA. So, again, welcome to the the world of SMD... Get your screw driver ready, and pray for Mods, because that's all you're ever going to do again.... Michael N6MQL > Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 05:30:54 -0800 > From: [hidden email] > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 > > Ladies, gentlemen, and all the other species of HAM community, > > I apologize for such aggressive and somewhat insulting subject of my > posting. But after reading all the "why I purchased Elecraft radio" reasons > I felt like chirping in. > > I like radios, I like to find out what I can do with it. I like building > things with my own hands. I didn't have so much fun building fully loaded > K1, K2, and KX1 in years... like... like.. like I had when I was assembling > my own computer with nothing but pliers, 40W soldering iron and individually > acquired spare parts back in 90es. It felt like I was giving birth to a baby > or something - making sure that it is in the best state I could possibly > make it. And I could also learn from it, a lot, in fact. > > Now, don't get me wrong, when it comes to the specs of K3 I bow my head to > the designers of it - it's truly a one son of a gun radio. It's pretty much > the heaven dream for CW. I know that. But there is one thing which makes me > uneasy - it's not the radio I built. It's not even the radio I assembled. > It's the radio someone else built, and all I am reduced to is plates > arrangements and screwdriver turning. It's almost like I am not sure whether > I should be thanking Wayne and Eric, or curse them. (Probably thank them > more than anything...) > > My gripe with K3 is that even if I buy it, build it, and use it, I can't > honestly say that I BUILD it. Simply because I didn't build it. With K1, K2, > KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to figure out what went > wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to myself that it was me who > was an idiot). I loved the process of making sure that I understand each and > every piece of it, to the last capacitor, even if I don't understand the > assembler code of its main controller (I spend enough time with computers to > hate them thoroughly as it is). My problem is I can't do the same with K3. > I'd love to own it. I'd love to use it. But I'd hate to build it. > > I am sorry if this posting makes no sense to all of you. I was simply trying > to express my feelings... > > I think I'll try to find more money to build another K1 or K2. (Actually, I > like K1 more, don't ask me why.) > > -- > Alexey Kats (neko) > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Jim, You have it right.
73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller Sent: 06 March 2011 18:52 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 If you don't start from Maxwell's equations you're just an appliance operator. ;-) jim ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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What nonsense! Not all of us have engineering training, but we deserve
better than a sneer as "appliance operators." There's a lot beyond appliance operating in practical station design and engineering that requires neither calculus nor a B.S. 73, Pete N4ZR The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 On 3/6/2011 3:13 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote: > Jim, You have it right. > 73 Doug EI2CN > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller > Sent: 06 March 2011 18:52 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 > > If you don't start from Maxwell's equations you're just an appliance > operator. ;-) > > jim > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexey Kats
Alexey Kats wrote:
>With K1, K2, KX1 I learned a lot from its schematics, I was able to >figure out what went wrong if something went wrong (just to prove to >myself that it was me who was an idiot). From personal experience, the K3 can offer all of that ;-) -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by The Smiths
Thank you all very much for your responses. I got lots of very interesting
perspectives on my hobby. I guess I am simply too old-fashioned and don't like pre-assembled SMD boards. Well, back to the drawing board I go... Nevertheless, thank you all, I appreciate it. -- Alexey Kats (neko) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull
I have always wondered how he condensed the original twenty equations in
twenty unknowns down to just four of them. The quaternions he used initially were out a favor with the physics community of the day so he needed to get them into vector form. Heaviside did a good job but how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations? What has been lost in the translation? Kevin. KD5ONS On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 12:13:42 -0800, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]> wrote: > Jim, You have it right. > 73 Doug EI2CN > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller > Sent: 06 March 2011 18:52 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3 > > If you don't start from Maxwell's equations you're just an appliance > operator. ;-) > > jim > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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