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Why I won't purchase K3

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Alexey Kats

Re: K3 as a kit

Wayne,

I totally understand that the idea of making a large SMD project as a kit
would be a disaster - only handful of people would be able to finish
assembling it, plus the sheer cost of packing parts and replacing
missing/lost pieces would probably double the average real-life cost of the
kit (after all, I am still amazed that you offer replacement of missing
parts at no charge, even for shipping). And with HAMs getting older the
critical piece needed is the eyesight, and for SMD the poor eyesight is a
killer. It wouldn't had been a good idea to cut older people off their hobby
like this.

I know you are right. And I am happy that K3 exists and is a top-notch
performer. I was simply nostalgic about more involving building process.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alexy,
>
> When we first started designing the K3, we agonized over the question of
> whether to offer a "full" kit version -- one that required a lot of
> soldering. But it quickly became apparent that this was incompatible with
> other goals for the radio. We needed to use surface-mount devices throughout
> in order to meet performance, size, and weight goals. An all through-hole
> version, or even a "half-through-hole" version, would have been twice as
> large and simply too expensive to be a successful product.
>
> Small kits using SMDs are great, and I highly recommend that anyone
> interested in surface-mount technology try their hand at building one. There
> are many SMD kit projects available from QRP clubs, etc.
>
> But a kit with many hundreds of SMDs would be a support disaster. The parts
> are easy to lose, and hard for many people to install. Fine-pitch SMD ICs
> are a challenge to install even for very experienced builders with excellent
> equipment. Aligning and testing such a kit would require a lot of lab gear.
>
> So we accepted the notion that a radio like the K3, as a kit, would require
> a higher level of integration. There was an existence proof for the utility
> of such kits: do-it-yourself PCs. Many companies offer modules that can be
> put together with a motherboard to create a computer with nearly any level
> of performance and features. There are probably hundreds of thousands of
> people who have built PCs this way, and clearly many of them enjoy doing so.
>
> The K3 kit may lack solder, but it is still a very "hands-on" experience:
>
> - there are hundreds of parts involved, including modules, controls,
> hardware, multi-part enclosure, etc.; the kit takes around 8 hours to
> complete
>
> - the K3 has built-in test equipment that the builder learns about and uses
> as they go
>
> - the builder becomes very aware of the various stages and modules needed
> to make a radio, and can delve further into the theory of operation or
> schematics if desired
>
> - modifying or updating the K3 is easier once you've been through the
> experience
>
> Up until the last minute, we worried that we might have a mutiny on our
> hands among "full-kit" devotees. But only two of them complained, at least
> publicly, so we breathed a huge sigh of relief. You now have the distinction
> of being #3 on my list of those who like the idea of building their own
> advanced radio completely from scratch, should we ever have the courage to
> explore that path :)
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Alexey Kats wrote:
>
> Thank you, I agree, the price of basic K3 is in the same range as of
>> loaded
>> K2 (a bit more, but still comparable). The thing is I like to BUILD stuff,
>> and I always compare the cost of buying equipment against the fun of
>> building it with my own two hands.
>>
>> So, when it comes down to cost-to-performance analysis - K3 wins hands
>> down.
>> It's only when one tries to justify the "kit" form it starts making little
>> to no sense unless the only thing is saving the money part.
>>
>

--
Alexey Kats (neko)
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Alexey Kats

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net

"how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations?"

It's called generalization. Compare it with Newton's law for gravity - even
though the size, shape, and movement of objects does play its role the law
is not concerned with them and still adequately describes the effect of
gravity. (Let's not start comparison between Newton's law and general
relativity.)

So, too many unknowns are needed when one wants to calculate the precise
effect of something. But they might not be important when one wants to
express the relationship between effects, so why not to hide them where they
are not needed until the moment comes?

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have always wondered how he condensed the original twenty equations in
> twenty unknowns down to just four of them. The quaternions he used
> initially were out a favor with the physics community of the day so he
> needed to get them into vector form. Heaviside did a good job but how do
> you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations? What
> has been lost in the translation?
> Kevin. KD5ONS
>
--
Alexey Kats (neko)
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John Ragle

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

Nothing is being hidden away! The 20 quantities you mention are not
independent, and by a bit of manipulation one can set up the description
in terms of a set of equations which contain the same information but
not redundantly.

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 3/6/2011 5:56 PM, Alexey Kats wrote:

> "how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations?"
>
> It's called generalization. Compare it with Newton's law for gravity - even
> though the size, shape, and movement of objects does play its role the law
> is not concerned with them and still adequately describes the effect of
> gravity. (Let's not start comparison between Newton's law and general
> relativity.)
>
> So, too many unknowns are needed when one wants to calculate the precise
> effect of something. But they might not be important when one wants to
> express the relationship between effects, so why not to hide them where they
> are not needed until the moment comes?
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Kevin Rock<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have always wondered how he condensed the original twenty equations in
>> twenty unknowns down to just four of them. The quaternions he used
>> initially were out a favor with the physics community of the day so he
>> needed to get them into vector form. Heaviside did a good job but how do
>> you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations? What
>> has been lost in the translation?
>> Kevin. KD5ONS
>>

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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: Why I won't purchase K3

In reply to this post by Alexey Kats

That's one of the main reasons I don't have one yet. That and the low
sunspot cycle, and taking down my quad off of the roof. :)

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Matthew D. Fuller-2

Re: Why I won't purchase K3

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

On Sun, Mar 06, 2011 at 01:52:09PM -0500 I heard the voice of
Jim Miller, and lo! it spake thus:
>
> If you don't start from Maxwell's equations you're just an appliance
> operator. ;-)

What, you're using PRE-ASSEMBLED photons?!

In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the
universe.
-- Carl Sagan, Cosmos

--
Matthew Fuller, N3TZJ
<[hidden email]>
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Mike Markowski-2

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net

Kevin and all,

Check out the wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations

and about halfway down look for the section named "A Dynamical Theory of
the Electromagnetic Field" where it talks a little about it. In short,
Cartesian vs vector!

73,
Mike ab3ap

On 03/06/11 17:37, Kevin Rock wrote:
> I have always wondered how he condensed the original twenty equations in
> twenty unknowns down to just four of them. The quaternions he used
> initially were out a favor with the physics community of the day so he
> needed to get them into vector form. Heaviside did a good job but how do
> you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations? What
> has been lost in the translation?
> Kevin. KD5ONS
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

I could not find the original equations on that site. Just the normal
sets which are beaten into us as undergrads. Where are the twenty
quaternion equations which Maxwell created initially? Not the ones by
Gibbs and Heaviside but the ones crafted by Maxwell?
Kevin. KD5ONS

On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:06:50 -0800, Mike Markowski <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Kevin and all,
>
> Check out the wiki page
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations
>
> and about halfway down look for the section named "A Dynamical Theory of
> the Electromagnetic Field" where it talks a little about it. In short,
> Cartesian vs vector!
>
> 73,
> Mike ab3ap
>
> On 03/06/11 17:37, Kevin Rock wrote:
>> I have always wondered how he condensed the original twenty equations in
>> twenty unknowns down to just four of them. The quaternions he used
>> initially were out a favor with the physics community of the day so he
>> needed to get them into vector form. Heaviside did a good job but how
>> do
>> you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations? What
>> has been lost in the translation?
>> Kevin. KD5ONS
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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AC7AC

Re: Why I won't purchase K3

In reply to this post by The Smiths

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

kevinr@coho.net

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by Mike Markowski-2

I found the original, 1873 version of Maxwell's equations. The four space
quaternion versions not the Gibbs - Heaviside mapping on to three space.
Yes, something was lost in translation. Very interesting book.

http://posner.library.cmu.edu/Posner/books/pages.cgi?call=537_M46T_1873_VOL._1

and

http://posner.library.cmu.edu/Posner/books/book.cgi?call=537_M46T_1873_VOL._2

An interesting winter's read.
73,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:06:50 -0800, Mike Markowski <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Edward R Cole

Re: Why I won't purchase K3

In reply to this post by Alexey Kats

Doug has it right.

Home built means accumulating the parts and assembling them. A kit
has the parts packaged for you by someone else, usually with a
premade board and instructions. The K3-kit satisfies that
description but is closer to the manufactured end of the kit spectrum.

But I do not think hams should feel less if they do not build the
system modules of their station. One still has the assembly of a
station into a functioning whole.

Surface-mount technology is where the state of the art is at. Very
little electronics is component-level construction.

As an example in my station:
I have non-kit FT-847 and FT-817; plus the K3/10 (kit) and several
Downeast Microwave transverter kits (sm level). Then there is the
station control I designed and built (HB) but used a pcb board from a
different application since it nicely mounted the 14 DPDT
relays. The controller has 17 switches, 7 indicators, three sub-D9,
two sub-D25 and ten RCA jacks.

My station has 20 coax lines out of the shack to 17 antennas on bands
from 600m to 2.4 GHz.

My latest little HB project is a transverter to convert 10.461 MHz to
0.461 MHz. I borrowed the design with some modification and mounted
the components on a RS project board that fits in a small aluminum
box. About three hour project after the parts were rounded up.

I will be adding a second IF to my K3 sub-Rx and the prototype
ext-ref for the TCXO-3. One is following other's directions and the
later could be called a kit (from Elecraft).

So one can do as much or little in the assembly of a station. Its
your choice. We all share the hobby in the way we please.

Now I got to go out and feed the sled dogs! (back in 1983 I built a
dog sled from scratch even sawing and planing the wood from a rough
timber - is that HB?)

73, Ed

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 17:29:38 -0000
From: "Doug Turnbull" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why I won't purchase K3
To: "'David Gilbert'" <[hidden email]>,
<[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <E1AF82B35120460981DDDA3F09272ECB@DOUG1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi All,
No criticism of Elecraft as I am a convert to the K3 but building your
own means home brew not building a kit. Heathkits, were always fun and yes
you learned something from the step by step assembly but never so much as
you learned from scrounging exchange parts, laying out the chassis, drilling
cutting filing and building from scratch. A design of your own takes
things even further down this path but even using a magazine article project
counts as home brew but not kits.

I like kits, I like my assembled K3 and I like home brew but have not
done any not in a shameful length of time. Forgive an old goat of 51 years
in the hobby. I do understand that the K2 does involve more work than many
a kit including some coil winding. Elecraft makes good gear and good kits.
Mechanical assembly of the K3 may well help when trouble shooting in future.

73 Doug EI2CN

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
======================================
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Byron Servies

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net

Just FYI,

http://www.amazon.com/Students-Guide-Maxwells-Equations/dp/0521701473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299458530&sr=8-1

if you are looking for a reference, this is one I purchased last summer.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I could not find the original equations on that site.

73, Byron N6NUL
----
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org
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Tony Estep

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by Alexey Kats

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations?"
>
> It's called generalization...
>
> ----------------
Well, it's true that Maxwell had a tendency to generalize, but we mustn't
condemn him: he had Demons we can't understand.

Tony KT0NY
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Herb Case

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

The amazing thing is he didn't have the electron! Everything he did was based on mechanical wave models until he reached radiation. That's where Maxwell's imagination AND understanding of the body of electrical knowledge lead to the more than twenty equations that made up his electromagnetic theory.

His orginal equations can be found in his own words in the following:

Maxwell on the Electromagnetic Field: A Guided Study
Thomas K. Simpson

Before warned that this is not an easy read!! It took me four attempts before I understood what Maxwell was saying and I have all the modern prereqs that are belived to be required to understand electromagnetic theory. It is worth the effort, though, as his thought process can be followed.

Have fun!!

Herb/WR9H
[hidden email]

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:57:45 -0600
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > "how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four equations?"
> >
> > It's called generalization...
> >
> > ----------------
> Well, it's true that Maxwell had a tendency to generalize, but we mustn't
> condemn him: he had Demons we can't understand.
>
> Tony KT0NY
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

Reading the Principia is also a chore. Interesting though.
Kevin.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:03:29 -0800, Herb Case <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The amazing thing is he didn't have the electron! Everything he did was
> based on mechanical wave models until he reached radiation. That's where
> Maxwell's imagination AND understanding of the body of electrical
> knowledge lead to the more than twenty equations that made up his
> electromagnetic theory.
> His orginal equations can be found in his own words in the following:
> Maxwell on the Electromagnetic Field: A Guided Study
> Thomas K. Simpson
> Before warned that this is not an easy read!! It took me four attempts
> before I understood what Maxwell was saying and I have all the modern
> prereqs that are belived to be required to understand electromagnetic
> theory. It is worth the effort, though, as his thought process can be
> followed.
> Have fun!!
>
> Herb/WR9H
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:57:45 -0600
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four
>> equations?"
>> >
>> > It's called generalization...
>> >
>> > ----------------
>> Well, it's true that Maxwell had a tendency to generalize, but we
>> mustn't
>> condemn him: he had Demons we can't understand.
>>
>> Tony KT0NY
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Herb Case

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

How right you are, Kevin! I went through part of the Principia with my physics professor as an independent study. Newton's version of calculus is nearly impossible to understand and I wonder how many "natural philosphers" in his day could read it. Of course try introducing diff equations to the uninitiated and see what happens!!

WR9H
Herb

> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:07:05 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.
>
> Reading the Principia is also a chore. Interesting though.
> Kevin.
>
>
> On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:03:29 -0800, Herb Case <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > The amazing thing is he didn't have the electron! Everything he did was
> > based on mechanical wave models until he reached radiation. That's where
> > Maxwell's imagination AND understanding of the body of electrical
> > knowledge lead to the more than twenty equations that made up his
> > electromagnetic theory.
> > His orginal equations can be found in his own words in the following:
> > Maxwell on the Electromagnetic Field: A Guided Study
> > Thomas K. Simpson
> > Before warned that this is not an easy read!! It took me four attempts
> > before I understood what Maxwell was saying and I have all the modern
> > prereqs that are belived to be required to understand electromagnetic
> > theory. It is worth the effort, though, as his thought process can be
> > followed.
> > Have fun!!
> >
> > Herb/WR9H
> > [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:57:45 -0600
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alexey Kats <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "how do you characterize a system with twenty unknowns in four
> >> equations?"
> >> >
> >> > It's called generalization...
> >> >
> >> > ----------------
> >> Well, it's true that Maxwell had a tendency to generalize, but we
> >> mustn't
> >> condemn him: he had Demons we can't understand.
> >>
> >> Tony KT0NY
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
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>
>
> --
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Herb Case

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by Byron Servies

This is an outstanding reference and it is written by a disciple of the great antenna guru, John Kraus (also an amateur op and a very famous radio astronomer).

WR9H
Herb

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:44:56 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.
>
> Just FYI,
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Students-Guide-Maxwells-Equations/dp/0521701473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299458530&sr=8-1
>
> if you are looking for a reference, this is one I purchased last summer.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I could not find the original equations on that site.
>
>
> 73, Byron N6NUL
> ----
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
> - www.cqp.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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wayne burdick

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

Administrator

Interesting discussion. Gives me an idea.

We'll soon be announcing a very cool new test instrument (it's the same size as our T1 antenna tuner but not related to it in any way). We'll give one of these to whoever can suggest, by next Thursday, the most plausible alternative to 11-dimensional supersymmetry as the working basis for a unified field theory. You may assume a negative cosmological constant and cannot impose R-parity. If the Higgs boson is discovered before the new product announcement, we'll throw in a spare 9-V battery.

73.14159...,

Wayne
N6KR
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

Nut!!

On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:47:11 -0800, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Interesting discussion. Gives me an idea.
>
> We'll soon be announcing a very cool new test instrument (it's the same
> size as our T1 antenna tuner but not related to it in any way). We'll
> give one of these to whoever can suggest, by next Thursday, the most
> plausible alternative to 11-dimensional supersymmetry as the working
> basis for a unified field theory. You may assume a negative cosmological
> constant and cannot impose R-parity. If the Higgs boson is discovered
> before the new product announcement, we'll throw in a spare 9-V battery.
>
> 73.14159...,
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Mike WA8BXN

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I learned the answer from one of my students: 42

73/72 - Mike WA8BXN

-------Original Message-------

From: Wayne Burdick
Date: 3/6/2011 9:47:17 PM
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Maxwell's Equations.

Interesting discussion. Gives me an idea.

We'll soon be announcing a very cool new test instrument (it's the same size
as our T1 antenna tuner but not related to it in any way). We'll give one of
these to whoever can suggest, by next Thursday, the most plausible
alternative to 11-dimensional supersymmetry as the working basis for a
unified field theory. You may assume a negative cosmological constant and
cannot impose R-parity. If the Higgs boson is discovered before the new
product announcement, we'll throw in a spare 9-V battery.

73.14159...,

Wayne
N6KR
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______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Maxwell's Equations.

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

And the answer is: "Maybe" (it always works).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/6/2011 9:47 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Interesting discussion. Gives me an idea.
>
> We'll soon be announcing a very cool new test instrument (it's the same size as our T1 antenna tuner but not related to it in any way). We'll give one of these to whoever can suggest, by next Thursday, the most plausible alternative to 11-dimensional supersymmetry as the working basis for a unified field theory. You may assume a negative cosmological constant and cannot impose R-parity. If the Higgs boson is discovered before the new product announcement, we'll throw in a spare 9-V battery.
>
> 73.14159...,
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

1234