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Why is my K3 off frequency?

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Charles Tropp-2

Why is my K3 off frequency?

Hi,
Last night my local ham club scheduled their first ever 6Meter Net and
Roundtable for 50.135Mz. I operate USB very rarely, preferring CW for all
of my Contesting and DX work. Last night the net control station advised me
that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his
frequency. This was confirmed by other callers as well. I have also heard
this problem mentioned in the past when checking into occasional 75M nets.
Is there an adjustment that I can or should make aside from using my XIT?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

--
*73, Charles N2SO*
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Michael Walker

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

If your Net Control station has an accurate enough ear to tell you are 12Hz
off frequency on an SSB net, I would ask him to align it for you.

On 80M, you may be only off frequency by a few hz.

12Hz at 50Mhz is really nothing. If it concerns you, you will need to
align it with the correct alignment tools and a trip to a repair facility
with a calibrated frequency standard is in order. If it was me, I wouldn't
worry about it too much. You can remind your Net controller that that is
what the RIT control, is for on his radio.

If I remember correctly, the K3 accuracy is 5ppm and at 50Mhz that is +/-
250hz at 50Mhz. It is only 15Hz at 80M. If my assumption is correct or
PPM, your radio is within Spec. I'm sure others will correct me if I
am wrong.

Mike

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:19 AM Charles Tropp <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
> Last night my local ham club scheduled their first ever 6Meter Net and
> Roundtable for 50.135Mz. I operate USB very rarely, preferring CW for all
> of my Contesting and DX work. Last night the net control station advised me
> that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
> me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his
> frequency. This was confirmed by other callers as well. I have also heard
> this problem mentioned in the past when checking into occasional 75M nets.
> Is there an adjustment that I can or should make aside from using my XIT?
>
> Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
>
> --
> *73, Charles N2SO*
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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stengrevics

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

Hi Charles,

Maybe you’ve done this, but if not, you should do frequency calibration per the manual (p.53 in mine).

This worked well for me until it didn’t. I then had to go to a 10 MHz external source which works well except that my 2 meter transverter is 600 Hz low (all other frequencies are perfect). Tech support provided an adjustment solution for the transverter which is beyond what I can do. Will send it back to Elecraft when my K4 arrives.

73,

John
WA1EAZ

> On Mar 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If your Net Control station has an accurate enough ear to tell you are 12Hz
> off frequency on an SSB net, I would ask him to align it for you.
>
> On 80M, you may be only off frequency by a few hz.
>
> 12Hz at 50Mhz is really nothing. If it concerns you, you will need to
> align it with the correct alignment tools and a trip to a repair facility
> with a calibrated frequency standard is in order. If it was me, I wouldn't
> worry about it too much. You can remind your Net controller that that is
> what the RIT control, is for on his radio.
>
> If I remember correctly, the K3 accuracy is 5ppm and at 50Mhz that is +/-
> 250hz at 50Mhz. It is only 15Hz at 80M. If my assumption is correct or
> PPM, your radio is within Spec. I'm sure others will correct me if I
> am wrong.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:19 AM Charles Tropp <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Last night my local ham club scheduled their first ever 6Meter Net and
>> Roundtable for 50.135Mz. I operate USB very rarely, preferring CW for all
>> of my Contesting and DX work. Last night the net control station advised me
>> that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
>> me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his
>> frequency. This was confirmed by other callers as well. I have also heard
>> this problem mentioned in the past when checking into occasional 75M nets.
>> Is there an adjustment that I can or should make aside from using my XIT?
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
>>
>> --
>> *73, Charles N2SO*
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Frank Krozel

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

Maybe I am missing the point.

While you may be off by 12Hz, not sure if I would feel that I want to participate in this Net if you are called out for that.

When I was brought into 6 meters I was told this was the Gentlemen's band.
Most all the nets I participate in are within 100Hz at best.
Also, I do recall when a current big manufacturer did not set there Bias correctly and we (somewhat) lived with it.

I still recall on 6 meters contesting when you ran across a buddy that you had not talked to in years, you took the time to chat with him to see how he was.
I hope that still exists!

Sheesh.

-73- Frank KG9H
[hidden email]

> On Mar 23, 2021, at 7:45 AM, John Stengrevics <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> Maybe you’ve done this, but if not, you should do frequency calibration per the manual (p.53 in mine).
>
> This worked well for me until it didn’t. I then had to go to a 10 MHz external source which works well except that my 2 meter transverter is 600 Hz low (all other frequencies are perfect). Tech support provided an adjustment solution for the transverter which is beyond what I can do. Will send it back to Elecraft when my K4 arrives.
>
> 73,
>
> John
> WA1EAZ
>
>> On Mar 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> If your Net Control station has an accurate enough ear to tell you are 12Hz
>> off frequency on an SSB net, I would ask him to align it for you.
>>
>> On 80M, you may be only off frequency by a few hz.
>>
>> 12Hz at 50Mhz is really nothing. If it concerns you, you will need to
>> align it with the correct alignment tools and a trip to a repair facility
>> with a calibrated frequency standard is in order. If it was me, I wouldn't
>> worry about it too much. You can remind your Net controller that that is
>> what the RIT control, is for on his radio.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, the K3 accuracy is 5ppm and at 50Mhz that is +/-
>> 250hz at 50Mhz. It is only 15Hz at 80M. If my assumption is correct or
>> PPM, your radio is within Spec. I'm sure others will correct me if I
>> am wrong.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:19 AM Charles Tropp <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Last night my local ham club scheduled their first ever 6Meter Net and
>>> Roundtable for 50.135Mz. I operate USB very rarely, preferring CW for all
>>> of my Contesting and DX work. Last night the net control station advised me
>>> that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
>>> me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his
>>> frequency. This was confirmed by other callers as well. I have also heard
>>> this problem mentioned in the past when checking into occasional 75M nets.
>>> Is there an adjustment that I can or should make aside from using my XIT?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
>>>
>>> --
>>> *73, Charles N2SO*
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>
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ANDY DURBIN

Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Charles Tropp-2

"Last night the net control station advised me that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his frequency."

Is my calendar wrong? Try again in a week!

Andy, k3wyc
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k6dgw

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Charles Tropp-2

Hmmm ... I can just barely hear a 12 Hz difference on a CW note in an
A/B comparison. Your NCS must have extraordinary ears to hear that
small a difference on sideband. Maybe he's just yanking your chain?

First off, 12 Hz at 50 MHz is essentially dead-on and I don't believe
it's worth your time to mess with it nor do I believe it would ever
matter. But, Wayne published a procedure using WWV that will get you
within 1 Hz at whatever WWV frequency you choose. It used to be on the
Elecraft web site but I can't find it now, maybe he'll speak up. It's
simple but you must go slowly. Set the display to WWV's freq at the 1
Hz display precision, select CONFIG->REF CAL, and adjust the REF CAL
frequency for exact ZB. While in REF CAL you'll see a number like
49.379682 in the display [that's what mine says, yours will likely be a
little different].

When you are very close to ZB, you will hear the beat as a slow rise and
fall in the noise or the WWV tone. In my case, two adjacent REF CAL
steps sort of "straddled" true ZB with the WWV audio tone pulsing about
one cycle every 3 sec on either one ... ~0.333 Hz. Get ZB during one of
the minutes WWV isn't transmitting the audio tone. Then, when the tone
comes back, it's easier to hear the beat, and you are assured you're not
trying to ZB the audio sideband. Use the highest WWV frequency that you
have a good S9 signal on.

There is one possible pitfall to beware of: The 2.5 and 20 MHz WWV TX
are 2.5 KW and appear to be linear transmitters. On a panadapter, you
can see the 100 Hz sub-carrier that carries the IRIG time code, and the
tone produces the two sidebands you would expect. The 5, 10, and 15 MHz
TX appear to be Class C plate modulated and you will see additional
sidebands at the harmonics of the audio tone frequency. The second
harmonic sidebands are only down about 15 dB from the fundamental
sidebands. All of the sidebands also show the 100 Hz sub-carrier.
Using any of those WWV frequencies, you need to be extra careful that
you're ZB with the carrier and not one of the sidebands.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/23/2021 3:17 AM, Charles Tropp wrote:

Grant Youngman-2

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

The other option if you don’t want to go through a REF CAL, is to simply tune to the NCS. Use the dial display to get close, and then, like the old days, ignore it and tune a few Hz until the NCS sounds right.

Grant NQ5T

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... I can just barely hear a 12 Hz difference on a CW note in an A/B comparison. Your NCS must have extraordinary ears to hear that small a difference on sideband. Maybe he's just yanking your chain?
>
> First off, 12 Hz at 50 MHz is essentially dead-on and I don't believe it's worth your time to mess with it nor do I believe it would ever matter. But, Wayne published a procedure using WWV that will get you within 1 Hz at whatever WWV frequency you choose. It used to be on the Elecraft web site but I can't find it now, maybe he'll speak up. It's simple but you must go slowly. Set the display to WWV's freq at the 1 Hz display precision, select CONFIG->REF CAL, and adjust the REF CAL frequency for exact ZB. While in REF CAL you'll see a number like
> 49.379682 in the display [that's what mine says, yours will likely be a little different].
>
>> On 3/23/2021 3:17 AM, Charles Tropp wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Last night my local ham club scheduled their first ever 6Meter Net and
>> Roundtable for 50.135Mz. I operate USB very rarely, preferring CW for all
>> of my Contesting and DX work. Last night the net control station advised me
>> that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
>> me. When I turned on my XIT and transmitted down 12Hz I was right on his
>> frequency. This was confirmed by other callers as well. I have also heard
>> this problem mentioned in the past when checking into occasional 75M nets.
>> Is there an adjustment that I can or should make aside from using my XIT?
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance you can

Nate Bargmann

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Charles Tropp-2

It's quite possible the NCS' radio is 12 Hz off frequency.

That said, "Net Control is *always* on frequency." ;-)

73, Nate, N0NB

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w4sc-2

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Charles Tropp-2

Skip,

I agree with all points you have made.

Add to the check list the offset in the K3 Filter setup, verify it is set correctly. On 5 pole filters,, i.e. for SSB the standard 2.7KHz filter, allows an offset setting range of 0.00 to +- 9.99KHz (in 10Hz steps). The same check would apply to the 8 pole filters, which should be set to 0.00. These offsets are used by the f/w to set the operating frequency and proper carrier point on the filter slopes.

Furthermore, I don’t understand why the NCS isn’t using his RIT, or operating in split mode, to “chase” stations he perceives to be “off frequency.” I think back to the past when no one had a digital frequency display to “get within” a couple of Hz of the desired frequency. Maybe he should be required to use a Swan 350 for a week or two??

73 de Ben W4SC

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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marvwheeler

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

Or everyone check in using an Eico 753.

Marv
KG7V

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of w4sc
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 6:08 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why is my K3 off frequency?

Skip,

I agree with all points you have made.

Add to the check list the offset in the K3 Filter setup, verify it is set correctly. On 5 pole filters,, i.e. for SSB the standard 2.7KHz filter, allows an offset setting range of 0.00 to +- 9.99KHz (in 10Hz steps). The same check would apply to the 8 pole filters, which should be set to 0.00. These offsets are used by the f/w to set the operating frequency and proper carrier point on the filter slopes.

Furthermore, I don’t understand why the NCS isn’t using his RIT, or operating in split mode, to “chase” stations he perceives to be “off frequency.” I think back to the past when no one had a digital frequency display to “get within” a couple of Hz of the desired frequency. Maybe he should be required to use a Swan 350 for a week or two??

73 de Ben W4SC

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman-2

Probably a good time to remind newcomers . . .

Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat
the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and
regardless of the net's published frequency.

Last week the NCS of the 75-meter Interstate Sideband Net parked himself
several kilohertz below the published frequency in order to escape QRM.
As the net control station that was his prerogative and his
responsibility. Most participants followed suit, but several stations
insisted on transmitting on the published frequency and then complained
that the NCS was off-frequency. In truth, the NCS is never
off-frequency. He IS the net frequency. Accurately zero-beating the
NCS is even more critical on CW nets where conditions often mandate
narrow filters.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

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ANDY DURBIN

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

"Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and regardless of the net's published frequency."

O.k. I'll bite. I started in amateur radio long enough ago to know how to use a BFO and to know how to zero beat an AM or CW signal. How does one zero beat a suppressed carrier single sideband phone signal? I just tune until the voice sounds like I think the voice should sound like. It is very subjective and I certainly can't tune to less than 12 Hz error.

What technique are others using that enables them to "zero beat" SSB phone to better than 12 Hz accuracy? I seldom use phone but I'd like to have this technique in my bag of tricks.

73,
Andy, k3wyc

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NK7Z

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

For SSB, I use the same.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 3/24/21 8:24 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:

> "Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and regardless of the net's published frequency."
>
> O.k. I'll bite. I started in amateur radio long enough ago to know how to use a BFO and to know how to zero beat an AM or CW signal. How does one zero beat a suppressed carrier single sideband phone signal? I just tune until the voice sounds like I think the voice should sound like. It is very subjective and I certainly can't tune to less than 12 Hz error.
>
> What technique are others using that enables them to "zero beat" SSB phone to better than 12 Hz accuracy? I seldom use phone but I'd like to have this technique in my bag of tricks.
>
> 73,
> Andy, k3wyc
>
>
>
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

Took the words right out of my mouth. And how does a NCS know check-ins are off
frequency, especially if it's a YL?

Wes N7WS

On 3/24/2021 8:24 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
> "Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and regardless of the net's published frequency."
>
> O.k. I'll bite. I started in amateur radio long enough ago to know how to use a BFO and to know how to zero beat an AM or CW signal. How does one zero beat a suppressed carrier single sideband phone signal? I just tune until the voice sounds like I think the voice should sound like. It is very subjective and I certainly can't tune to less than 12 Hz error.
>
> What technique are others using that enables them to "zero beat" SSB phone to better than 12 Hz accuracy? I seldom use phone but I'd like to have this technique in my bag of tricks.
>
> 73,
> Andy, k3wyc

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Hal Massey

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

It’s not off frequency enough to care about it.

> On Mar 24, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Wes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Took the words right out of my mouth. And how does a NCS know check-ins are off frequency, especially if it's a YL?
>
> Wes N7WS
>
> On 3/24/2021 8:24 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>> "Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and regardless of the net's published frequency."
>>
>> O.k. I'll bite. I started in amateur radio long enough ago to know how to use a BFO and to know how to zero beat an AM or CW signal. How does one zero beat a suppressed carrier single sideband phone signal? I just tune until the voice sounds like I think the voice should sound like. It is very subjective and I certainly can't tune to less than 12 Hz error.
>>
>> What technique are others using that enables them to "zero beat" SSB phone to better than 12 Hz accuracy? I seldom use phone but I'd like to have this technique in my bag of tricks.
>>
>> 73,
>> Andy, k3wyc
>
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k6dgw

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

True ... the NCS is, by definition, the net frequency. One can zero
beat CW and AM to within a Hz or so and with today's radios, you will
even stay there. What's to "zero beat" in a SSB signal?

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/24/2021 8:04 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

> Probably a good time to remind newcomers . . .
>
> Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat
> the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and
> regardless of the net's published frequency.
>
> Last week the NCS of the 75-meter Interstate Sideband Net parked
> himself several kilohertz below the published frequency in order to
> escape QRM. As the net control station that was his prerogative and
> his responsibility. Most participants followed suit, but several
> stations insisted on transmitting on the published frequency and then
> complained that the NCS was off-frequency. In truth, the NCS is never
> off-frequency. He IS the net frequency. Accurately zero-beating the
> NCS is even more critical on CW nets where conditions often mandate
> narrow filters.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
>
>
>
>

KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Hal Massey

The quickest and easiest method for zero-beating the NCS on an SSB net
is just what Andy described . . . tune for the most natural sounding
voice. I suppose someone with lab instruments and scopes might come up
with something more sophisticated But, as others have pointed out,
sophistication is seldom needed in general Amateur use. There is only
one station in a net that all stations need to zero-beat and that is the
NCS.

The NCS doesn't care about stations off-frequency. It is not his job to
tune for anybody. He stays put. It's the responsibility of stations
who are checking into the net to find and zero-beat the NCS, not the
other way around. In fact, a good NCS will lock his main VFO so he
doesn't accidentally bump it. If he needs to fine-tune someone, he uses
his clarifier/RIT.

The same holds true for all stations in the net (or round table). They
should use their main (transmitter) VFOs to zero the NCS, lock it, and
then use their clarifier (RIT) knob to tune incoming signals as
desired. Of course, SPLIT could also be used to accomplish the same
thing as long as the transmitting VFO is zeroed to the NCS and locked
and the operator doesn't get confused as to which VFO is doing what.

But again, I can't emphasize enough that the NCS chooses a frequency of
his choice nearest the published frequency in order to establish as
clear a spot as possible and all others zero-beat him. This protocol
has been in practice in National Traffic System work since the advent of
variable frequency oscillators.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Wes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> And how does a NCS know check-ins are off frequency, especially if it's a YL?
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>> On 3/24/2021 8:24 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>>> "Calibration aside, stations checking into nets should always zero-beat the Net Control Station regardless of where he is on the dial and regardless of the net's published frequency."
>>>
>>> O.k. I'll bite. I started in amateur radio long enough ago to know how to use a BFO and to know how to zero beat an AM or CW signal. How does one zero beat a suppressed carrier single sideband phone signal? I just tune until the voice sounds like I think the voice should sound like. It is very subjective and I certainly can't tune to less than 12 Hz error.
>>>
>>> What technique are others using that enables them to "zero beat" SSB phone to better than 12 Hz accuracy? I seldom use phone but I'd like to have this technique in my bag of tricks.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Andy, k3wyc
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

In reply to this post by Charles Tropp-2

On 3/23/2021 3:17 AM, Charles Tropp wrote:
> Last night the net control station advised me
> that I was 12Hz too high and that he had to use his RIT control to tune to
> me.

He's off by at least one decimal point, probably two. He needs to study
the fundamentals of radio, frequency, and how stuff works. Anyone who
worries about 12 Hz if he's not next to a band edge is either a fool or
anal retentive.

73, Jim K9YC
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

Are y'all STILL grousing over this?

Haven't you figured out yet it was all a big "gotcha" joke poking fun at the
"frequency police"???
Let's all have a big laugh and get on with life.
This subject was DOA anyway.

73, Charlie k3ICH

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Why is my K3 off frequency?

I too couldn't believe all the advice given on how to properly ascertain you were on frequency on an ssb signal. And just how do youzero beat an ssb signal? You would have to know what the person actually sounds like in person for one thing. Does he sound likeDonald Duck or Darth Vader?
Get real.
BillK3WJV

On Thursday, March 25, 2021, 6:47:50 AM EDT, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:

Are y'all STILL grousing over this?

Haven't you figured out yet it was all a big "gotcha" joke poking fun at the
"frequency police"???
Let's all have a big laugh and get on with life.
This subject was DOA anyway.

73, Charlie k3ICH

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