Will I Lose the 120 Watt Max If I update The Software?

[-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-]

My software is about six months old and I heard rumor that the K3's power may be backed down to 100 watts. My amplifier is a little testy and going from 100 watts to 110 watts is the difference of 500 watts on the amp. I am not sure if I want to update it yet. My K3 is working fine so far. What am I missing if I don't update?

[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

110W is the maximum with the latest firmware. Running any higher than
that is not recommended .... it probably should invalidate your
warranty ;)

    ~Iain / N6ML


On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 7:22 PM, -.-.  --.-N3TU -.-.  --.-
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> My software is about six months old and I heard rumor that the K3's power may
> be backed down to 100 watts. My amplifier is a little testy and going from
> 100 watts to 110 watts is the difference of 500 watts on the amp. I am not
> sure if I want to update it yet. My K3 is working fine so far. What am I
> missing if I don't update?
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Will-I-Lose-the-120-Watt-Max-If-I-update-The-Software-tp3682736p3682736.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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[David Gilbert]

You have a real problem with your amp if going from 100 watts to 110
watts drive gives you a difference of 500 watts output from the
amplifier.  Actually, the rest of us are the ones who have the problem
with your amplifier if it really does that.  Do you realize the kind of
distortion you must be putting out with that kind of non-linearity?

Dave   AB7E




-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:
> My software is about six months old and I heard rumor that the K3's power may
> be backed down to 100 watts. My amplifier is a little testy and going from
> 100 watts to 110 watts is the difference of 500 watts on the amp. I am not
> sure if I want to update it yet. My K3 is working fine so far. What am I
> missing if I don't update?
>  
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[AD4C2009]

A 10W difference makes 500W more? that's a relation of 50 to 1.MMMMMMMMMMM sounds wierd,I have never seen an amp that makes that relation,there is definitively something wrong in there.
 
AD4C


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits". -- Albert Einstein

--- On Mon, 9/21/09, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Will I Lose the 120 Watt Max If I update The Software?
To: "-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:37 AM



You have a real problem with your amp if going from 100 watts to 110
watts drive gives you a difference of 500 watts output from the
amplifier.  Actually, the rest of us are the ones who have the problem
with your amplifier if it really does that.  Do you realize the kind of
distortion you must be putting out with that kind of non-linearity?

Dave   AB7E




-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:
> My software is about six months old and I heard rumor that the K3's power may
> be backed down to 100 watts. My amplifier is a little testy and going from
> 100 watts to 110 watts is the difference of 500 watts on the amp. I am not
> sure if I want to update it yet. My K3 is working fine so far. What am I
> missing if I don't update?
>   
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[-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-]

I'm not causing distortion and stations say it sounds clean on the air. I think I am going to get the amp looked over. Thanks for the info.

[Jack Brindle]

Just how much power are you running? If going from 100 to 110 makes a  
500 watt difference in the output, then you must be putting out 5000  
watts with 100 in, assuming the amplifier is linear.

Somehow I suspect this isn't the situation...

Seriously, in general amplifiers need about 50 watts input to get full  
legal output. That's about a 15dB max gain as set by the FCC rules if  
I remember correctly. If you need to put much more than that in, then  
you either have a lot of loss in the input coupling network (this is  
intentional on some designs), or the efficiency of the finals is  
really bad (old tubes?). Your strategy of getting it checked out is a  
good one.


On Sep 20, 2009, at 8:14 PM, -.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:

>
> I'm not causing distortion and stations say it sounds clean on the  
> air. I
> think I am going to get the amp looked over. Thanks for the info.
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Will-I-Lose-the-120-Watt-Max-If-I-update-The-Software-tp3682736p3682879.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

-Jack Brindle, W6FB
=======================================================================


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[-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-]

Yes, I'm going to get it checked out. Full legal limit is at 110 watts. I have original tubes in the amp.
I guess I need two new 3-500z's. I already have new caps in the power supply.

Jack Brindle wrote

Just how much power are you running? If going from 100 to 110 makes a  
500 watt difference in the output, then you must be putting out 5000  
watts with 100 in, assuming the amplifier is linear.

Somehow I suspect this isn't the situation...

Seriously, in general amplifiers need about 50 watts input to get full  
legal output. That's about a 15dB max gain as set by the FCC rules if  
I remember correctly. If you need to put much more than that in, then  
you either have a lot of loss in the input coupling network (this is  
intentional on some designs), or the efficiency of the finals is  
really bad (old tubes?). Your strategy of getting it checked out is a  
good one.


On Sep 20, 2009, at 8:14 PM, -.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:

>
> I'm not causing distortion and stations say it sounds clean on the  
> air. I
> think I am going to get the amp looked over. Thanks for the info.
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Will-I-Lose-the-120-Watt-Max-If-I-update-The-Software-tp3682736p3682879.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[e-mail]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


-Jack Brindle, W6FB
=======================================================================


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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> Seriously, in general amplifiers need about 50 watts input to
> get full legal output. That's about a 15dB max gain as set by
> the FCC rules if I remember correctly.

Most 3-500 based amplifiers with 2800 V (no load) on the plates
require 120 Watts or so for "legal limit" output.  That's about
11 dB gain.  Part 97.317(a)(2) limits the maximum gain to 15 dB
(approximately 50 W drive for 1500 W out).

The extra 10 to 20 watts of drive makes a difference for those
who have SB-220, TL-922, AL-82, AL-1300, AL-572, etc. amplifiers.
It can mean another 200+ W output.  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jack Brindle
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 11:59 PM
> To: -.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Will I Lose the 120 Watt Max If
> I update TheSoftware?
>
>
> Just how much power are you running? If going from 100 to 110
> makes a  
> 500 watt difference in the output, then you must be putting out 5000  
> watts with 100 in, assuming the amplifier is linear.
>
> Somehow I suspect this isn't the situation...
>
> Seriously, in general amplifiers need about 50 watts input to
> get full  
> legal output. That's about a 15dB max gain as set by the FCC
> rules if  
> I remember correctly. If you need to put much more than that
> in, then  
> you either have a lot of loss in the input coupling network (this is  
> intentional on some designs), or the efficiency of the finals is  
> really bad (old tubes?). Your strategy of getting it checked
> out is a  
> good one.
>
>
> On Sep 20, 2009, at 8:14 PM, -.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not causing distortion and stations say it sounds clean on the
> > air. I
> > think I am going to get the amp looked over. Thanks for the info.
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Will-I-Lose-the-120-Watt-Max-If-I-update-

The-Software-tp3682736p3682879.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


-Jack Brindle, W6FB
=======================================================================


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[Gary Hinson]

> Most 3-500 based amplifiers with 2800 V (no load) on the plates
> require 120 Watts or so for "legal limit" output.  That's about
> 11 dB gain.  

Even with 3 x 3-500s in my LK550 and 2,900V no load, I only need about
25-40W input depending on band to reach our legal limit: 500W.  Which
is plenty, way too much in fact for the digital modes.

> Part 97.317(a)(2) limits the maximum gain to 15 dB
> (approximately 50 W drive for 1500 W out).

Not in NZ.  Is there really a max gain regulation in the US?  How
quaint!
 
> The extra 10 to 20 watts of drive makes a difference for those
> who have SB-220, TL-922, AL-82, AL-1300, AL-572, etc. amplifiers.
> It can mean another 200+ W output.  

... The difference will be small in pure signal strength terms but
sure the operator's confidence is improved.  A cheaper option (as used
by certain CBers) is to tweak your power meter to read high.

Seriously, though, a bit more attention to operating skills and maybe
a little investment in your antennas and feeders will eclipse the QRO
option every time.  #1 DXing tip is simply to be very active and
listen hard.   #2 is to save up those tenths of dBs you get for free
by eliminating unnecessary coax connectors, and indeed unnecessary
coax.  Someone should start giving out 0.1dB savings stamps and a
DXers' collector's card.

73
Gary  ZL2iFB



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[Dave, G4AON]

Unfortunately the 3rd order IMD of a typical 12 Volt PA is barely
acceptable when operating at 100 Watts let alone pushing 120 Watts from
a K3. The K3 would output 120 Watts, or 110 Watts in later firmware, and
yet is recommended by Elecraft to run 100 Watts max on SSB. Running a K3
at 25 Watts improves the IMD on SSB by around 10 dB. My Acom 1000
amplifier runs the UK limit of 400 Watts with less than 30 Watts drive.

For amplifiers needing 120 Watts of drive you need a higher power
transceiver than a K3, at least that way you stand a chance of having a
clean signal on SSB.

73 Dave, G4AON
K3/100 #80
----------------------------------
Most 3-500 based amplifiers with 2800 V (no load) on the plates
require 120 Watts or so for "legal limit" output. That's about
11 dB gain. Part 97.317(a)(2) limits the maximum gain to 15 dB
(approximately 50 W drive for 1500 W out).

The extra 10 to 20 watts of drive makes a difference for those
who have SB-220, TL-922, AL-82, AL-1300, AL-572, etc. amplifiers.
It can mean another 200+ W output.

73,

... Joe, W4TV
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[Bob Naumann W5OV]

What if he's running about 5kw out? This would make sense. 10% increase in
input gives you a 10% increase in output power.

This is of course ignoring the "dirty" signal you are producing.

W5OV

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:37 PM
To: -.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.-
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Will I Lose the 120 Watt Max If I update The
Software?


You have a real problem with your amp if going from 100 watts to 110
watts drive gives you a difference of 500 watts output from the
amplifier.  Actually, the rest of us are the ones who have the problem
with your amplifier if it really does that.  Do you realize the kind of
distortion you must be putting out with that kind of non-linearity?

Dave   AB7E




-.-. --.-N3TU -.-. --.- wrote:
> My software is about six months old and I heard rumor that the K3's power
may
> be backed down to 100 watts. My amplifier is a little testy and going from
> 100 watts to 110 watts is the difference of 500 watts on the amp. I am not
> sure if I want to update it yet. My K3 is working fine so far. What am I
> missing if I don't update?
>  
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[Mark Bayern]

> This is of course ignoring the "dirty" signal you are producing.

Maybe he's CW only and doesn't need a linear amp.
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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> Even with 3 x 3-500s in my LK550 and 2,900V no load, I only
> need about 25-40W input depending on band to reach our legal
> limit: 500W.  Which is plenty, way too much in fact for the
> digital modes.

In some jurisdictions the limit is lower (e.g., 400 - 500 W
input) than the US (1500 W PEP Output).  On the other hand,
in some jurisdictions it appears to be unlimited <G>.

> > Part 97.317(a)(2) limits the maximum gain to 15 dB
> > (approximately 50 W drive for 1500 W out).
>
> Not in NZ.  Is there really a max gain regulation in the US?  
> How quaint!

Yes, that's part of the old rules designed to prevent the
misuse of amateur amplifiers on 27 MHz.

> ... The difference will be small in pure signal strength
> terms but sure the operator's confidence is improved.  

True, the difference between 1300 and 1500 W is 0.8 dB.

However, there is one other issue with the 110 W limit.
Due to the "slope" in the internal wattmeter, it may not
be possible to achieve even a "full" 100 W output (much
less 110 W) on 6 and 10 meters if the K3 wattmeter is
calibrated on 20 meters.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Hinson
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:19 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Will I Lose the 120 Watt Max If
> IupdateTheSoftware?
>
>
> > Most 3-500 based amplifiers with 2800 V (no load) on the plates
> > require 120 Watts or so for "legal limit" output.  That's about
> > 11 dB gain.  
>
> Even with 3 x 3-500s in my LK550 and 2,900V no load, I only
> need about 25-40W input depending on band to reach our legal
> limit: 500W.  Which is plenty, way too much in fact for the
> digital modes.
>
> > Part 97.317(a)(2) limits the maximum gain to 15 dB
> > (approximately 50 W drive for 1500 W out).
>
> Not in NZ.  Is there really a max gain regulation in the US?  
> How quaint!
>  
> > The extra 10 to 20 watts of drive makes a difference for those
> > who have SB-220, TL-922, AL-82, AL-1300, AL-572, etc. amplifiers.
> > It can mean another 200+ W output.  
>
> ... The difference will be small in pure signal strength
> terms but sure the operator's confidence is improved.  A
> cheaper option (as used by certain CBers) is to tweak your
> power meter to read high.
>
> Seriously, though, a bit more attention to operating skills
> and maybe a little investment in your antennas and feeders
> will eclipse the QRO option every time.  #1 DXing tip is
> simply to be very active and
> listen hard.   #2 is to save up those tenths of dBs you get for free
> by eliminating unnecessary coax connectors, and indeed
> unnecessary coax.  Someone should start giving out 0.1dB
> savings stamps and a DXers' collector's card.
>
> 73
> Gary  ZL2iFB
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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