Winlink Express + K3S

[Nicklas Johnson]

Somewhat related to my other post, but sufficiently different that I
figured it should be its own thread: I consistently get the "Timeout in T>R
Latency Measurement" message from Winlink Express using the built-in
software Winmor TNC.

After some poking around and trying different things, I set up the K3S to
do PTT on RTS, made sure the TX delay was as short as possible, configured
Winlink to use RTS for PTT, and as far as I can tell, the switching is very
fast... but Winlink is still not happy about it.  I tried VOX as well, but
it seemed like latency should be less with RTS for PTT.

I used to get the Timeout error on my KX3 on the first transmit, but
subsequent transmissions always worked fine.

Has anyone had more success with Winlink with the K3s and with avoiding
this Timeout message?

   Nick

--
*N6OL*
Saying something doesn't make it true.  Belief in something doesn't make it
real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not
worth supporting.
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[Nicklas Johnson]

FWIW, I did some more poking around.  Increasing the RF gain to present
Winlink with a louder signal helps to alleviate this problem.  Looking at
the meter in Winlink, when it switches from TX to RX, there's some ramp
time before it reflects the full amplitude of the incoming signal.

Curious about that, I recorded some audio using Audacity to see what the
recovery after the actual RX switch looks like: https://imgur.com/IPTabvm

There's about 10ms of ramp up, followed by about 10ms of signal, then a
40ms audio dropout, then the signal resumes and stays steady.  This same
pattern appeared for every TX/RX exchange, including the same 40ms dropout
in the same place.  Not a big deal with many modes, but it could be a
bigger problem with Winlink or other modes which rely on quick TX/RX
switching; the total latency between the end of the transmit and the end of
the dropout is 170ms; add to that sound driver latency and buffering
latency, and the total latency could be well over 200ms... 140ms would
certainly be more desirable if it could be achieved.  (See
https://imgur.com/a/C2McMby for the full switch cycle.)

I also tested this with an external sound card to determine whether these
artifacts are coming from the receiver or the internal sound card.  The
same artifacts are present from the external sound card connected to the
rig's line out as when using the internal sound card, which I suspect
indicates they're coming from the receiver, not the sound card.

This is happening in DATA-A mode with NR, NB and NTCH off and with AGC
off.  Using Windows 10 with all "enhancements" disabled on both cards.

What else should I check or try?  Can anyone else verify this same pattern?

   Nick


On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 22:42, Nicklas Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Somewhat related to my other post, but sufficiently different that I
> figured it should be its own thread: I consistently get the "Timeout in T>R
> Latency Measurement" message from Winlink Express using the built-in
> software Winmor TNC.
>
> After some poking around and trying different things, I set up the K3S to
> do PTT on RTS, made sure the TX delay was as short as possible, configured
> Winlink to use RTS for PTT, and as far as I can tell, the switching is very
> fast... but Winlink is still not happy about it.  I tried VOX as well, but
> it seemed like latency should be less with RTS for PTT.
>
> I used to get the Timeout error on my KX3 on the first transmit, but
> subsequent transmissions always worked fine.
>
> Has anyone had more success with Winlink with the K3s and with avoiding
> this Timeout message?
>
>    Nick
>
> --
> *N6OL*
> Saying something doesn't make it true.  Belief in something doesn't make
> it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not
> worth supporting.
>

--
*N6OL*
Saying something doesn't make it true.  Belief in something doesn't make it
real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not
worth supporting.
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[Brian Hunt]

When calling to connect with winmor you will always get the timeout
message until the called station responds.  Once it connects the error
message should go away.  It drove me nuts for a while. :-) FWIW, I use
the CAT command option for PTT so I don't have to remember to set the
PTT-KEY menu.  Seems to work fine.  Note:  K3 and external USB sound
card used here with Win10 desktop PC.  HTH

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

On 10/10/2018 22:42, Nicklas Johnson wrote:

> Somewhat related to my other post, but sufficiently different that I
> figured it should be its own thread: I consistently get the "Timeout in T>R
> Latency Measurement" message from Winlink Express using the built-in
> software Winmor TNC.
>
> After some poking around and trying different things, I set up the K3S to
> do PTT on RTS, made sure the TX delay was as short as possible, configured
> Winlink to use RTS for PTT, and as far as I can tell, the switching is very
> fast... but Winlink is still not happy about it.  I tried VOX as well, but
> it seemed like latency should be less with RTS for PTT.
>
> I used to get the Timeout error on my KX3 on the first transmit, but
> subsequent transmissions always worked fine.
>
> Has anyone had more success with Winlink with the K3s and with avoiding
> this Timeout message?
>
>     Nick
>

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[Nicklas Johnson]

Got a great tip from Elecraft support on this one, which I'll relate here
for the next person who is searching for K3/K3S "T>R Latency measurement
timeout" on Google or the list when operating with Winlink.

The answer is to assign CONFIG:SYNC DT to a PF button (I used PF1) and then
enable it when in DATA mode.  This cuts the TX/RX latency *substantially*
and entirely eliminates the 60ms of artifacts I was seeing during switching
(the slow ramp and the 40ms drop-out).  Presumably those artifacts were the
result of switching filters.

T>R latency on my laptop now varies anywhere from 60-130ms, and I'm sure
some of that is just variance in processing in Winlink itself.  The
important thing is that the measure no longer times out, and the latency is
in the ballpark where it needs to be for the mode to work well.

The moral of the story is that if you're using a DATA mode that relies on
quick switching from transmit to receive, assign Sync DT to a button and
engage it when working with that mode.

Kudos to Gary at Elecraft!

   Nick

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 12:08, Brian Hunt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When calling to connect with winmor you will always get the timeout
> message until the called station responds.  Once it connects the error
> message should go away.  It drove me nuts for a while. :-) FWIW, I use
> the CAT command option for PTT so I don't have to remember to set the
> PTT-KEY menu.  Seems to work fine.  Note:  K3 and external USB sound
> card used here with Win10 desktop PC.  HTH
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> On 10/10/2018 22:42, Nicklas Johnson wrote:
> > Somewhat related to my other post, but sufficiently different that I
> > figured it should be its own thread: I consistently get the "Timeout in
> T>R
> > Latency Measurement" message from Winlink Express using the built-in
> > software Winmor TNC.
> >
> > After some poking around and trying different things, I set up the K3S to
> > do PTT on RTS, made sure the TX delay was as short as possible,
> configured
> > Winlink to use RTS for PTT, and as far as I can tell, the switching is
> very
> > fast... but Winlink is still not happy about it.  I tried VOX as well,
> but
> > it seemed like latency should be less with RTS for PTT.
> >
> > I used to get the Timeout error on my KX3 on the first transmit, but
> > subsequent transmissions always worked fine.
> >
> > Has anyone had more success with Winlink with the K3s and with avoiding
> > this Timeout message?
> >
> >     Nick
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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--
*N6OL*
Saying something doesn't make it true.  Belief in something doesn't make it
real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not
worth supporting.
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