Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
 
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One hint from someone who is tone deaf: (I can't tune a piano but I can
tuna fish). I think most people pick an arbitrary pitch for receiving because the rig defaulted there or their elmer told them to use a certain pitch. They then try to use their ear to match that note. But it is not "their" note. To further complicate matters, the pitch that served you well ten years ago might not be the best now because your hearing has changed. I have found that if I pick a pitch that sounds just right to me, then zero beating is easier because it is the note I naturally want to hear. If you have your rig set up at 600 hz but your ear likes to hear CW at 800hz, you will have a hard time trying to zero beat. You will naturally tune higher because that is the tone you like to hear. So, my advice is to start over and listen to the various pitches available. Pick the one that sounds "sweet" to you and make that your default. Make sure it is the same on all your rigs. Tune yourself up like the orchestra does before a performance - listen to the SPOT function and fix it in your head before operating. I think then, you will find it easier to zero beat. On another note, I have to question why a pitch of 800hz is the maximum the K3 will allow. Some folks or conditions prefer a higher pitch particularly when the band noise is a low grumbling sound. The higher-pitched CW stands out better. k4ia "Buck" K3 #101 Fredericksburg, VA **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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If it really won't accept > 800Hz, it's crazy. I have always used 800Hz. This explains why the spot function doesn't work now for me at all. Often it moves the wanted signal out of the passband altogether. Since many others had already commented that it didn't work I didn't bother to add "same here", but I certainly don't want to be forced to use a lower frequency.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html |
Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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800 Hz is the highest pitch you can select for your sidetone. But this
has no effect on auto-spot. It will search the same amount above/below any selected pitch. On May 14, 2008, at 9:27 AM, G4ILO wrote: > > > K4IA wrote: >> >> On another note, I have to question why a pitch of 800hz is the >> maximum >> the >> K3 will allow. --- http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO
The CWT/AutoTuneZeroBeat works perfectly on K3 #202 (latest firmware
1.94/1.73) with the sidetone set to 800Hz... from both sides of zerobeat. 73, Ken K3IU ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ G4ILO wrote: > K4IA wrote: > >> On another note, I have to question why a pitch of 800hz is the maximum >> the >> K3 will allow. Some folks or conditions prefer a higher pitch >> particularly >> when the band noise is a low grumbling sound. The higher-pitched CW >> stands >> out better. >> >> > If it really won't accept > 800Hz, it's crazy. I have always used 800Hz. > This explains why the spot function doesn't work now for me at all. Often it > moves the wanted signal out of the passband altogether. Since many others > had already commented that it didn't work I didn't bother to add "same > here", but I certainly don't want to be forced to use a lower frequency. > > ----- > Julian, G4ILO K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392 > G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com > Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Dear Wayne,
A pitch of 880 Hz is an exactly tuned A, twice the canonical 440 that orchestras are tuned to. Musical people might like to use 880 to avoid upsetting their sense of pitch by hearing an off-key sidetone all day. Also, 740.0 is within a fraction of a Hertz of a correctly tuned (well-tempered tuning) F#. So there is good reason to have the increments of sidetone pitch be 10 Hz rather than 50 Hz. I'd suggest that, if the hardware registers permit it, the firmware on the K3 should allow a sidetone from 200 Hz to 1000 Hz by 10 Hz increments. By the way, I find on my K2 that setting the sidetone readout to 730 actually gives an audio pitch of 740 Hz. But setting to 440 actually gives 440. This is the result of granularity in the registers, I assume. On the K3, the actual pitches should be within 1Hz of their settings, or so I hope. 73, Oliver Johns W6ODJ On 14 May 2008, at 9:36 AM, wayne burdick wrote: > 800 Hz is the highest pitch you can select for your sidetone. But > this has no effect on auto-spot. It will search the same amount > above/below any selected pitch. > > On May 14, 2008, at 9:27 AM, G4ILO wrote: > >> >> >> K4IA wrote: >>> >>> On another note, I have to question why a pitch of 800hz is the >>> maximum >>> the >>> K3 will allow. > > > --- > > http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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-----Original Message----- From: O. Johns > A pitch of 880 Hz is an exactly tuned A, twice the canonical 440 that > orchestras are tuned to. Musical people might like to use 880 to avoid > upsetting their sense of pitch by hearing an off-key sidetone all day. Probably only an issue for the few of us who have perfect pitch. Personally, I'd rather run 440 Hz than 880 Hz. Oh wait, I play bass. I guess I should be using side tones below 100 Hz :-). > I'd suggest that, if the hardware registers permit it, the firmware > on the K3 should allow a sidetone from 200 Hz to 1000 Hz by 10 Hz increments. The wider your range, the worse your accuracy. By the way, I find on my K2 that setting the sidetone readout to 730 actually gives an audio pitch of 740 Hz. But setting to 440 actually gives 440. This is the result of granularity in the registers, I assume. On the K3, the actual pitches should be within 1Hz of their settings, or so I hope. I am SOOOO glad the days of 1000 Hz and 800 Hz sidetones are gone for me. Listening to those high pitches is irritating to most I suspect. I know it is for me. I'd rather have 10 Hz steps over a range of say 300 to 700 than to have 50 Hz steps over a range of 200 to 1000. In the end, it's just a side tone. If it is a nice pure sine wave somewhere between 400 Hz and 600 Hz, I'll be just as happy as can be! YPTMV (Your preferred tone may vary) - Keith N1AS - - K3 711 - _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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From this discussion, it is good to find that there are others like me
who have a difficult time with zero-beating at any pitch. It is also interesting that those with good pitch recognition are mystified by the problems we encounter. It is likely that we all can detect the close-in low pitched beat note between two signals when that beat note is 20 Hz or lower - the problem I have is getting close enough to create that low pitched beat. I hear two tones, but whether the signal is higher or lower than the sidetone is often a mystery - sure, I can get them close with trial and error, but that takes time. Once tuned closely, it is an easy matter to listen to that low pitched 3rd tone (the beat). Thank goodness for zero beat detectors and Spectrogram displays for taking the mystery out of this procedure for those of us with 'tin ears'. 73, Don W3FPR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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Don, Et Al,
Just a note: While I am fairly musically inclined, I find that most rigs (including the KX-1 and FT-757) produce a non-sinusoidal note which I can't seem to consistently get my brain around. I find myself going to spectrum programs a lot... Regards, kurtt Kurt Pawlikowski, AKA WB9FMC The Pinrod Corporation [hidden email] (773) 284-9500 http://pinrod.com Don Wilhelm wrote: > From this discussion, it is good to find that there are others like me > who have a difficult time with zero-beating at any pitch. It is also > interesting that those with good pitch recognition are mystified by > the problems we encounter. > It is likely that we all can detect the close-in low pitched beat note > between two signals when that beat note is 20 Hz or lower - the > problem I have is getting close enough to create that low pitched > beat. I hear two tones, but whether the signal is higher or lower > than the sidetone is often a mystery - sure, I can get them close with > trial and error, but that takes time. Once tuned closely, it is an > easy matter to listen to that low pitched 3rd tone (the beat). Thank > goodness for zero beat detectors and Spectrogram displays for taking > the mystery out of this procedure for those of us with 'tin ears'. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
I am as tone deaf as anyone. I can't hear anything above about 2.7 khz because of tinnitus. The technique that I use with my TS-850 is to tune for max volume of the desired signal. If I don't get my station on the first try, I tweek the tuning to a bit higher pitch and try again. That usually works. I don't know what technique I will use with my K3. I will have to wait until I get it on the air to find out. (December 27 order and still waiting). Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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In reply to this post by W6ODJ
O. Johns napsal(a): > > I'd suggest that, if the hardware registers permit it, the firmware on > the K3 should allow a sidetone from 200 Hz to 1000 Hz by 10 Hz increments. > Increment of 10Hz is also listed on wish-list on http://www.zerobeat.net/smf/index.php/board,25.0.html will be very useful, 73! Lexa, OK1DST K3/10 #727 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Dear Lexa,
I'm glad to hear that 10 Hz increments are at least being considered. That would be a big help. Even the K2 has 10 Hz increments. But there is still the issue of the highest pitch allowed. Different people have very different ears. For me, the higher tones are much easier to hear, probably because of some hearing loss at midrange frequencies. It seems that an 800 Hz top is just too low. A top of 1000 Hz or more would be much better for some of us. Wayne, is a raising of the top from 800 to 1000 or higher being considered? Is it even possible? 73, Oliver Johns W6ODJ On 15 May 2008, at 10:33 AM, Alexandr Kobranov wrote: > > > O. Johns napsal(a): >> I'd suggest that, if the hardware registers permit it, the firmware >> on the K3 should allow a sidetone from 200 Hz to 1000 Hz by 10 Hz >> increments. > Increment of 10Hz is also listed on wish-list on > http://www.zerobeat.net/smf/index.php/board,25.0.html > > will be very useful, > 73! > Lexa, OK1DST > K3/10 #727 > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
Willis,
Don't forget, your K3 will have CWT which gives a visual indication of cw zero beat. It works very well. 73, Norm - W1MO 'Cookie' wrote:"I don't know what technique I will use with my K3. I will have to wait until I get it on the air to find out. (December 27 order and still waiting)." _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Hello all,
Anyone hear if Elecraft or any of the other guys made any new product announcements at Dayton today? Manuel W4SSB K3/100 - 513 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I saw nothing new at the Elecraft booth. Lee - K0WA In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Manuel Maseda
>Anyone hear if Elecraft or any of the other guys made any new product
>announcements at Dayton today? I haven't heard of any from Elecraft. Wayne didn't mention any in his talk at the Kit Building forum. Budd W3FF however, showed up that the FDIM evening vendors event with a thing that appears to be an auto band switching buddipole. (New coils and a control box mounted at the middle of the element.) He is also talking about a rotor (rotator?) for the thing. On a buddipole? Sounds odd to me. Mark AD5SS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Manuel Maseda
> Anyone hear if Elecraft or any of the other guys made any new product
> announcements at Dayton today? The Elecraft booth was too busy discussing current products and taking orders to spend time announcing new things. 73, Ed - W0YK _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: Zero beat hint and why 800hz maximum?
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In reply to this post by W6ODJ
O. Johns wrote:
> Also, 740.0 is within a fraction of a Hertz of a correctly tuned > (well-tempered tuning) F#. So there is good reason to have the > increments of sidetone pitch be 10 Hz rather than 50 Hz. Might it not be better to use a logarithmic scale (e.g. equal tempered semi-tones) or a near logarithmic scale, with rational frequency ratios (natural (is this "well tempered"?) semitones). -- David Woolley "The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio" List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Manuel Maseda
I was wondering about any Dayton news also. I was guessing that Icom might be trying to unload PRO IIIs with the 7700 out now. I've sure seen lots of PRO IIIs up for sale. I got rid of mine just in time. Only American made rigs from now on. Elecraft, Flex, Alpha and Dentron.
73, Dave N8AG _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFuy01zZR4g
This japanese company has a new radio with a good looking amber/orange LCD display. ---------------------------------------- KN1w On May 17, 2008, at 12:22 PM, Dave Agsten wrote: > I was wondering about any Dayton news also. I was guessing that Icom > might be trying to unload PRO IIIs with the 7700 out now. I've sure > seen lots of PRO IIIs up for sale. I got rid of mine just in time. > Only American made rigs from now on. Elecraft, Flex, Alpha and > Dentron. > > 73, > Dave N8AG > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Manuel Maseda
WOW!!!! am I ever underwhelmed!
Doug W6JD -------------- Original message -------------- From: Lou Aguilar <[hidden email]> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFuy01zZR4g > > This japanese company has a new radio with a good looking amber/orange > LCD display. > > ---------------------------------------- > KN1w > > > > On May 17, 2008, at 12:22 PM, Dave Agsten wrote: > > > I was wondering about any Dayton news also. I was guessing that Icom > > might be trying to unload PRO IIIs with the 7700 out now. I've sure > > seen lots of PRO IIIs up for sale. I got rid of mine just in time. > > Only American made rigs from now on. Elecraft, Flex, Alpha and > > Dentron. > > > > 73, > > Dave N8AG > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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