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cw 'clicking' ??

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callen1155

cw 'clicking' ??

Hello folks.

I have a fellow ham a mile down the road that is running a 6 meter cw beacon at 100 watts. His transmit freq is 50.060 MHz. With my K3 (stock 2,7k filter only) I hear his 'clicking' at 50.125 MHz while listening for SSB activity. My antenna is a random length dipole (about 200 feet long).

Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to eliminate it?

thanks.
chuck
af4xk

Steve Ellington

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

wire cutters

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] cw 'clicking' ??

>
>
> Hello folks.
>
> I have a fellow ham a mile down the road that is running a 6 meter cw
> beacon
> at 100 watts. His transmit freq is 50.060 MHz. With my K3 (stock 2,7k
> filter
> only) I hear his 'clicking' at 50.125 MHz while listening for SSB
> activity.
> My antenna is a random length dipole (about 200 feet long).
>
> Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to eliminate it?
>
> thanks.
> chuck
> af4xk
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-tp5011614p5011614.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Guy, K2AV

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by callen1155

It's called key clicks, and it's the fault of the beacon transmitter.
Being only a block away makes the clicks much louder to you. One
setting of NB or another will probably remove it for you.

On 40m I use NB with settings DSP t 3-7 or t 2-7 with IF OFF.

73, Guy

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:27 PM, callen1155 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hello folks.
>
> I have a fellow ham a mile down the road that is running a 6 meter cw beacon
> at 100 watts. His transmit freq is 50.060 MHz. With my K3 (stock 2,7k filter
> only) I hear his 'clicking' at 50.125 MHz while listening for SSB activity.
> My antenna is a random length dipole (about 200 feet long).
>
> Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to eliminate it?
>
> thanks.
> chuck
> af4xk
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-tp5011614p5011614.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

LOL Well, he looks like a real nice guy, nice QRZ page. You didn't mention
his call/name, so I won't either (after the recent foofaraw about "outing"
somebody), but finding out who he is doesn't take a rocket scientist. :-)

Does he know you're hearing clicks from his beacon transmitter? He seems to
be a very active and public ham in your area, so I'm sure he'd like to know.
He says on his QRZ page that everything in his shack is Icom, so I assume
that includes the beacon radios -- though he doesn't say specifically what
those transmitters are. (He has a beacon on 2m also.)

I played around with converting an old low-band FM radio into a 6m beacon a
few years ago, and I never could get the key clicks out of it no matter how
I tried to key it. The ARRL Handbook "suggested" a rather elaborate
keying/shaping circuit with multiple semiconductor devices, and I wasn't up
for going to that level of complexity, so I just gave up on the project. (I
know, shame on me.) Key clicks can be a bear to get rid of -- but I haven't
specifically heard of any Icom radios having a bad key click problem like
many Yaesu radios are known to. Others may know otherwise; I've never owned
any Icom radios besides an IC-22 in the early 1970s. :-)

Bill W5WVO

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Ellington" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:51 PM
To: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] cw 'clicking' ??

> wire cutters
>
> Steve
> N4LQ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "callen1155" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 7:27 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] cw 'clicking' ??
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hello folks.
>>
>> I have a fellow ham a mile down the road that is running a 6 meter cw
>> beacon
>> at 100 watts. His transmit freq is 50.060 MHz. With my K3 (stock 2,7k
>> filter
>> only) I hear his 'clicking' at 50.125 MHz while listening for SSB
>> activity.
>> My antenna is a random length dipole (about 200 feet long).
>>
>> Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to eliminate it?
>>
>> thanks.
>> chuck
>> af4xk
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-tp5011614p5011614.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by callen1155

On Wed, 5 May 2010 16:27:16 -0700 (PDT), callen1155 wrote:

>Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to eliminate it?

Chuck,

Clicks can be caused by the transmitter, but they can also be produced in
your receiver if it is being overloaded. Several suggestions. First, make
sure your Noise Blanker isn't turned on. Noise Blankers can CAUSE key clicks.
Second, if you still hear clicks, leave your noise blanker off, and work on
finding and eliminating the overload condition. Turn off your preamp, and see
if the clicks go away. Sometimes a preamp can overload and cause the clicks
in your radio (or overload the radio itself). If you still hear clicks, leave
the preamp off and turn on the ATTEN in the K3. And if you STILL hear clicks,
remove the antenna and stick a short piece of wire in the K3 antenna input.

If none of that makes the clicks go away (and his signal is still strong),
let him know he's causing bad clicks and making 6M unusable at your QTH. Both
the FCC Rules and the spirit of ham radio require that he get rid of HIS
clicks, even if that means turning off his transmitter. He is NOT responsible
if your rig is creating the clicks because it's overloaded. But again, in the
spirit of ham radio, he should do something with his beacon to make life on
6M viable for you.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC

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juergen piezo

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

Hi Jim

This discussion brings back to the point that all ham radio transmitters need mandated occupied bandwidth rules. These rules would prevent the re-occurrence of the Yaesu click debacle.

Hams are just being stubborn for no good reason for arguing against these common sense standards that all other HF users must comply with. The longer we resist these standards the worst the problem is going to become.

Whats amusing is that everyone focuses on keyclicks, yet the problem exists to a greater degree on SSB.

John

--- On Wed, 5/5/10, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] cw 'clicking' ??
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 6:24 PM
> On Wed, 5 May 2010 16:27:16 -0700
> (PDT), callen1155 wrote:
>
> >Is this 'clicking' normal and is there a solution to
> eliminate it?
>
> Chuck,
>
> Clicks can be caused by the transmitter, but they can also
> be produced in
> your receiver if it is being overloaded. Several
> suggestions. First, make
> sure your Noise Blanker isn't turned on. Noise Blankers can
> CAUSE key clicks.
> Second, if you still hear clicks, leave your noise blanker
> off, and work on
> finding and eliminating the overload condition. Turn off
> your preamp, and see
> if the clicks go away. Sometimes a preamp can overload and
> cause the clicks
> in your radio (or overload the radio itself). If you still
> hear clicks, leave
> the preamp off and turn on the ATTEN in the K3. And if you
> STILL hear clicks,
> remove the antenna and stick a short piece of wire in the
> K3 antenna input.
>
> If none of that makes the clicks go away (and his signal is
> still strong),
> let him know he's causing bad clicks and making 6M unusable
> at your QTH. Both
> the FCC Rules and the spirit of ham radio require that he
> get rid of HIS
> clicks, even if that means turning off his transmitter. He
> is NOT responsible
> if your rig is creating the clicks because it's overloaded.
> But again, in the
> spirit of ham radio, he should do something with his beacon
> to make life on
> 6M viable for you.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

P.B. Christensen

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

> "The longer we resist these standards the worst the problem is going to
> become...Hams are just being stubborn for no good reason for arguing
> against these common sense standards that all other HF users must comply
> with."

At least for CW, I think the worst is now behind us. Also, some of the
worst offending transceivers are manufactured for the high-end HF commercial
and military markets.

Within the last few years, manufacturers in the amateur market have paid
better attention to the shape of the keyed envelope. Even Yaesu's newest
transceivers are reasonably good. The usual culprits are now out of
production, although they will continue to show up on the air for a long
time. Start handing out 599K reports to the remaining offenders.

> Whats amusing is that everyone focuses on keyclicks, yet the problem
> exists to a greater degree on SSB.

Agreed and that's the next opportunity for improvement. IM effects from
transmitters that are only -30dB (I3), can not only be heard, but are
clearly visible on a direct-RF-sampling pan adapter. I would like to see I3
improvement to at least -40 dB, and -55 dB is now attainable with
pre-distortion techniques like that used on the Swiss ADT-200A. Those
numbers are repeatable across bands and the '200A does not reply upon an ATU
to get there.

Paul, W9AC

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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

Absolutely. I trust that the 40db maximum level you are suggesting is 40db
below test tone, not relative to pep.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

From: "Paul Christensen" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:06 AM

> Agreed and that's the next opportunity for improvement. IM effects from
> transmitters that are only -30dB (I3), can not only be heard, but are
> clearly visible on a direct-RF-sampling pan adapter. I would like to see
> I3
> improvement to at least -40 dB, and -55 dB is now attainable with
> pre-distortion techniques like that used on the Swiss ADT-200A. Those
> numbers are repeatable across bands and the '200A does not reply upon an
> ATU
> to get there.

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Guy, K2AV

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> First, make
> sure your Noise Blanker isn't turned on. Noise Blankers can CAUSE key clicks.
> Second, if you still hear clicks,

Afraid I can't go with you on this one, Jim. Simply saying don't use
NB in a K3 doesn't cut it.

In analog RX, the only available noise blanking is a purely
reactionary process which shuts off the IF for a short time.

In the K3, there are TWO processes, not one. The first is the
traditional noise blanker from analog radios, retained because it is
still useful for certain noise. The SECOND NB process is pure DSP.
Both processes come up for settings when the NB button is held to get
LEVEL, "dSP" and "IF".

Only the "IF" is the traditional analog IF chopper, and this method
may be set to "OFF" with VFOB. Personally, I rarely use this method,
though it does work well on some rare noise on 80m that I have never
identified.

The OTHER method: DSP noise blanking takes place entirely in the
number soup and is NOT subject to the key click generating problems.
As best as I can tell from watching a scope, it doesn't acheive its
results by blanking, but rather by detecting suspicious high rises in
the wave form that qualify for noise spikes and subtracting the wave
form. It has proven its ability to reduce key clicks, having used it
sucessfully on the worst of them in DX tests on 40m where high power
EU and New England stations are still generating them into our 5
element fixed northeast monster quad.

In my prior post I recommended a DSP only NB setting for key clicks
and I stand by that,

And yes we have tested over and over that click levels track an input
attenuator precisely down even 60 dB, so the K3 is NOT generating the
clicks in its RX.

Hamdom has been very stubborn about recognizing clicks as their own
problem and for the most part has blamed everything except the keying
envelope. And even when the K2 in its early years got a mod from
Wayne to a nicely shaped and quiet waveform, there were denials on
this very reflector that the K2 had a problem, and "I'm not going to
do that mod", etc.

73, Guy.
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N5GE

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by callen1155

On Wed, 5 May 2010 16:27:16 -0700 (PDT), callen1155
<[hidden email]> wrote:

A 100 watt beacon is a bit over the top. Even at 2m and 70cm 5 to 10
watts or less is the norm, but there are no rules to govern beacon
power output.

I have a friend who is about 2 miles from me who when on 2m SSB and CW
is running about 250kw ERP from his moon bounce system. I don't hear
him on either of my K3's until he gets within 5kHz of me when I'm on
SSB, and on CW he has to be within 1 KHz before I can tell he is
there.

I believe I'd tell the beacon owner about the clicks. If he is a good
responsible ham, as you say, he will probably be as concerned as you
are about the clicks.

TOM, N5GE BT 73 ES GUD LUK
AR DE N5GE SK

http://www.n5ge.com

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

n7ws

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by P.B. Christensen

Me too. But it doesn't appear that you can actually buy one. ;-)

Wes N7WS

--- On Thu, 5/6/10, Paul Christensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would like to see I3
> improvement to at least -40 dB, and -55 dB is now
> attainable with
> pre-distortion techniques like that used on the Swiss
> ADT-200A. Those
> numbers are repeatable across bands and the '200A does not
> reply upon an ATU
> to get there.
>
> Paul, W9AC

W8JI

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by N5GE

> I have a friend who is about 2 miles from me who when on
> 2m SSB and CW
> is running about 250kw ERP from his moon bounce system. I
> don't hear
> him on either of my K3's until he gets within 5kHz of me
> when I'm on
> SSB, and on CW he has to be within 1 KHz before I can tell
> he is
> there.

I know we probably all realize this, but the field strength
outside of the main lobe from a 250 kW ERP antenna would be
a whole less than the field strength from a vertical running
100 watts! I am, of course, NOT saying it is normal to have
clicks like he is having.

He should not have that problem at that frequency separation
and distance even if the beacon is running 1000 watts.

I'd be sure nothing in the receiver ahead of the roofing
filters is going non-linear, but it almost certainly (unless
someone has a very high gain preamp) going to be a
transmitter problem.

Some of these beacon transmitters are scary, especially when
people think they can run CW through a class C amplifier
stage. A class C stage, even "unintentional" class C, can
make clicks hundreds of kHz wide.

73 Tom

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alsopb

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

This whole discussion begs the question: Aren't there already enough
beacons?

From what I see these days (from cluster spots), guys appear to have
put aside the mike or key to just listen for beacons, rather than
actually getting on the air and working people. Wouldn't just operating
be a better use of bandwidth? It seems once, a particular beacon is
spotted, the control op ought to get on the air and start making contacts.

Isn't there some control step in the process which limits the
number/power of beacon "broadcasters" in a particular area? (like
repeater site approvals) Or can anybody put a beacon on the air anywhere
anytime? It seems like if they must exist some power level in the 1-10
watt range seems appropriate.

Shouldn't complain, my HC8 contact on 6M was possible due to hearing
their beacon first. I perhaps can justify the use of a beacon from rare
locations like HC8. Not sure having 15 beacons from Miami is all that
justifiable.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Tom W8JI wrote:

>> I have a friend who is about 2 miles from me who when on
>> 2m SSB and CW
>> is running about 250kw ERP from his moon bounce system. I
>> don't hear
>> him on either of my K3's until he gets within 5kHz of me
>> when I'm on
>> SSB, and on CW he has to be within 1 KHz before I can tell
>> he is
>> there.
>
> I know we probably all realize this, but the field strength
> outside of the main lobe from a 250 kW ERP antenna would be
> a whole less than the field strength from a vertical running
> 100 watts! I am, of course, NOT saying it is normal to have
> clicks like he is having.
>
> He should not have that problem at that frequency separation
> and distance even if the beacon is running 1000 watts.
>
> I'd be sure nothing in the receiver ahead of the roofing
> filters is going non-linear, but it almost certainly (unless
> someone has a very high gain preamp) going to be a
> transmitter problem.
>
> Some of these beacon transmitters are scary, especially when
> people think they can run CW through a class C amplifier
> stage. A class C stage, even "unintentional" class C, can
> make clicks hundreds of kHz wide.
>
> 73 Tom
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: cw 'clicking' ?? [END of Thread]

Administrator

We're drifting way off topic. (Both beacons and clicks..) Time to
officially END the thread.

73, Eric
List moderator
----

On 5/6/2010 7:38 AM, Brian Alsop wrote:
> This whole discussion begs the question: Aren't there already enough
> beacons?
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Jim Brown-10

Re: cw 'clicking' ??

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

On Thu, 6 May 2010 08:58:18 -0400, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

>Afraid I can't go with you on this one, Jim. Simply saying don't use
>NB in a K3 doesn't cut it.

I didn't say that! You misunderstood my advice, which was diagnostic.
I am simply trying to eliminate his K3 and RX setup as the source of
the clicks. Althogh I've not yet tried it, I think your advice to use
it on clicks is a very useful idea, and I'm glad you posted it several
months ago.

73,

Jim K9YC

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