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disabled controls during TX

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HA3AUI

disabled controls during TX

I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
are disabled during TX?
It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.

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Guy, K2AV

Re: disabled controls during TX

I agree, the K3 certainly does have more RX things locked while
transmitting than my MP, but the MP had some as well.

I seem to recall that this is also true of other software defined
radios like Flex, but others can comment on that. All of the K3
controls are effectively encoders, including the rf/af gain controls
which divide off a standard voltage and are converted to digital
before they are used for anything and must be processed to have
effect. In a completely analog radio, each pot is always connected to
its own circuit.

The shift/width/speed/cmp controls are encoders only and tell the CPU
when they are being turned and which direction, They can only only
have an effect when the CPU is paying attention to them. There is no
end of pot or physical range limits on them. They do not retain their
state like rf/af controls. In order to be continuously responsive,
the firmware program(s) would have to be constantly running a state
function for each of them, even while creating the transmit envelope
from digitized input. This could be disproportionately more difficult
code or disproportionately more use of processing resources. Using
encoders allows multiple functions for each knob, which would not be
possible with if they were pots.

But someone from Elecraft would need to comment to the rationale of
freezing a given RX setting during TX and whether any unfreezing is on
the firmware-to-do list.

I know they have gone through at least two phases of optimizing code
for resource use.

I have to be careful myself -- I tend to be irritated by anything that
is different, and there is a LOT in a K3 different from an analog
radio. So far none of them are deal breakers, and me getting used to
them has been the real issue. I was still fussing a year later about
my new FT1000MP. But when it was all over, were it not for fixing the
key clicks, the quite crushable front end, and all the IM crap it
added to the ambient band noise, it would still be my favorite, just
because matched INRAD 8 pole filters in both IF's for all modes and
bandwidths really worked well for selectivity AND I was finally used
to the menus and knobs and rarely had to look anything up in the
manual. My new rig angst isn't particular to the K3, it's just me.
It's new anything angst.

I hate changes, I hate surprises, yada, yada, but that's my problem.
Were it not for four years non-contest operating with a K2, the K3
analog-to-digital-disconnect change together with panel changes may
have been a deal breaker with where-the-h*ll-are-the-band-buttons,
etc. But I had already figured out I could hear way better on any band
with my K2 than the MP, and my brain's anti-change barking dog was
regularly whipped back into the corner for the privilege of hearing
the EU 40m QRP-basement-noodle-antenna crowd on my K3, and realizing
that the next layer was an apparently inexhaustible layer of Russians
that points to some *RX* antenna work to get them. So now I'm getting
used to the K3, .....

Going to N1MM logger from the DOS-based TR logger was quite more
irritating than any switching receivers. I was thrown in the deep end
of the pool, do or die, at a multi-op station with all those other ops
around me that switched years ago and were very helpful, but couldn't
quite keep the smirk off their face....

73, Guy.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:07 AM, HA3AUI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
> are disabled during TX?
> It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
> that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
> preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
> I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Vic K2VCO

Re: disabled controls during TX

In reply to this post by HA3AUI

On 4/1/2010 3:07 AM, HA3AUI wrote:
> I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
> are disabled during TX?
> It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
> that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
> preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
> I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.

Elecraft definitely knows about this and is working on it. There's probably no issue that
so many testers have beaten them up about as much! Wayne has already made some functions
available during TX which were not in previous versions of f/w like RIT on/off/clear,
etc., and he's said that fixing this is high priority.

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Jeff Herr

Re: disabled controls during TX

I wonder if this is the result of the software structure?

i.e. maybe tx processing is done outside of "normal" event processing and
doesn't service a lot of this stuff.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vic K2VCO
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 7:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] disabled controls during TX

On 4/1/2010 3:07 AM, HA3AUI wrote:
> I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
> are disabled during TX?
> It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
> that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
> preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
> I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.

Elecraft definitely knows about this and is working on it. There's probably
no issue that
so many testers have beaten them up about as much! Wayne has already made
some functions
available during TX which were not in previous versions of f/w like RIT
on/off/clear,
etc., and he's said that fixing this is high priority.

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
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k6rb

Re: disabled controls during TX

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

Even the FT-1000D would not let you change RX filters during XMT.

Rob K6RB

> I agree, the K3 certainly does have more RX things locked while
> transmitting than my MP, but the MP had some as well.
>
> I seem to recall that this is also true of other software defined
> radios like Flex, but others can comment on that. All of the K3
> controls are effectively encoders, including the rf/af gain controls
> which divide off a standard voltage and are converted to digital
> before they are used for anything and must be processed to have
> effect. In a completely analog radio, each pot is always connected to
> its own circuit.
>
> The shift/width/speed/cmp controls are encoders only and tell the CPU
> when they are being turned and which direction, They can only only
> have an effect when the CPU is paying attention to them. There is no
> end of pot or physical range limits on them. They do not retain their
> state like rf/af controls. In order to be continuously responsive,
> the firmware program(s) would have to be constantly running a state
> function for each of them, even while creating the transmit envelope
> from digitized input. This could be disproportionately more difficult
> code or disproportionately more use of processing resources. Using
> encoders allows multiple functions for each knob, which would not be
> possible with if they were pots.
>
> But someone from Elecraft would need to comment to the rationale of
> freezing a given RX setting during TX and whether any unfreezing is on
> the firmware-to-do list.
>
> I know they have gone through at least two phases of optimizing code
> for resource use.
>
> I have to be careful myself -- I tend to be irritated by anything that
> is different, and there is a LOT in a K3 different from an analog
> radio. So far none of them are deal breakers, and me getting used to
> them has been the real issue. I was still fussing a year later about
> my new FT1000MP. But when it was all over, were it not for fixing the
> key clicks, the quite crushable front end, and all the IM crap it
> added to the ambient band noise, it would still be my favorite, just
> because matched INRAD 8 pole filters in both IF's for all modes and
> bandwidths really worked well for selectivity AND I was finally used
> to the menus and knobs and rarely had to look anything up in the
> manual. My new rig angst isn't particular to the K3, it's just me.
> It's new anything angst.
>
> I hate changes, I hate surprises, yada, yada, but that's my problem.
> Were it not for four years non-contest operating with a K2, the K3
> analog-to-digital-disconnect change together with panel changes may
> have been a deal breaker with where-the-h*ll-are-the-band-buttons,
> etc. But I had already figured out I could hear way better on any band
> with my K2 than the MP, and my brain's anti-change barking dog was
> regularly whipped back into the corner for the privilege of hearing
> the EU 40m QRP-basement-noodle-antenna crowd on my K3, and realizing
> that the next layer was an apparently inexhaustible layer of Russians
> that points to some *RX* antenna work to get them. So now I'm getting
> used to the K3, .....
>
> Going to N1MM logger from the DOS-based TR logger was quite more
> irritating than any switching receivers. I was thrown in the deep end
> of the pool, do or die, at a multi-op station with all those other ops
> around me that switched years ago and were very helpful, but couldn't
> quite keep the smirk off their face....
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:07 AM, HA3AUI <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
>> are disabled during TX?
>> It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
>> that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
>> preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
>> I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Andy Faber

Re: disabled controls during TX

Rob,
True, but, for example, I can do that on my 756Pro2 and it is often I want
to in a contest. For example, if I have narrowed the filter settings to
pull out a weak one and want to go back to a normal wider setting, this is
something to do while the computer is sending the next CQ. Now at least we
can clear the RIT while transmitting, which is helpful. The Pro2 allows you
to adjust just about any RX parameter while transmitting, and I find that
extremely useful. I've commented on this issue since first getting my K3 in
2007.
73, andy, ae6y
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>; "HA3AUI" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] disabled controls during TX

> Even the FT-1000D would not let you change RX filters during XMT.
>
> Rob K6RB
>
>> I agree, the K3 certainly does have more RX things locked while
>> transmitting than my MP, but the MP had some as well.
>>
>> I seem to recall that this is also true of other software defined
>> radios like Flex, but others can comment on that. All of the K3
>> controls are effectively encoders, including the rf/af gain controls
>> which divide off a standard voltage and are converted to digital
>> before they are used for anything and must be processed to have
>> effect. In a completely analog radio, each pot is always connected to
>> its own circuit.
>>
>> The shift/width/speed/cmp controls are encoders only and tell the CPU
>> when they are being turned and which direction, They can only only
>> have an effect when the CPU is paying attention to them. There is no
>> end of pot or physical range limits on them. They do not retain their
>> state like rf/af controls. In order to be continuously responsive,
>> the firmware program(s) would have to be constantly running a state
>> function for each of them, even while creating the transmit envelope
>> from digitized input. This could be disproportionately more difficult
>> code or disproportionately more use of processing resources. Using
>> encoders allows multiple functions for each knob, which would not be
>> possible with if they were pots.
>>
>> But someone from Elecraft would need to comment to the rationale of
>> freezing a given RX setting during TX and whether any unfreezing is on
>> the firmware-to-do list.
>>
>> I know they have gone through at least two phases of optimizing code
>> for resource use.
>>
>> I have to be careful myself -- I tend to be irritated by anything that
>> is different, and there is a LOT in a K3 different from an analog
>> radio. So far none of them are deal breakers, and me getting used to
>> them has been the real issue. I was still fussing a year later about
>> my new FT1000MP. But when it was all over, were it not for fixing the
>> key clicks, the quite crushable front end, and all the IM crap it
>> added to the ambient band noise, it would still be my favorite, just
>> because matched INRAD 8 pole filters in both IF's for all modes and
>> bandwidths really worked well for selectivity AND I was finally used
>> to the menus and knobs and rarely had to look anything up in the
>> manual. My new rig angst isn't particular to the K3, it's just me.
>> It's new anything angst.
>>
>> I hate changes, I hate surprises, yada, yada, but that's my problem.
>> Were it not for four years non-contest operating with a K2, the K3
>> analog-to-digital-disconnect change together with panel changes may
>> have been a deal breaker with where-the-h*ll-are-the-band-buttons,
>> etc. But I had already figured out I could hear way better on any band
>> with my K2 than the MP, and my brain's anti-change barking dog was
>> regularly whipped back into the corner for the privilege of hearing
>> the EU 40m QRP-basement-noodle-antenna crowd on my K3, and realizing
>> that the next layer was an apparently inexhaustible layer of Russians
>> that points to some *RX* antenna work to get them. So now I'm getting
>> used to the K3, .....
>>
>> Going to N1MM logger from the DOS-based TR logger was quite more
>> irritating than any switching receivers. I was thrown in the deep end
>> of the pool, do or die, at a multi-op station with all those other ops
>> around me that switched years ago and were very helpful, but couldn't
>> quite keep the smirk off their face....
>>
>> 73, Guy.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:07 AM, HA3AUI <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I wonder if anyone else has noticed, most of the front panel controls
>>> are disabled during TX?
>>> It's quite annoying during a contest for example, where you could use
>>> that little time to make an adjustment eg. change bandwidth, turn on/off
>>> preamp etc. before the rig returns to RX.
>>> I've never ever seen this behavior on any other rig that I own.
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

HA3AUI

Re: disabled controls during TX

In reply to this post by HA3AUI

Thanks for all the answers, it's reassuring to know that at least, the
problem is already known.
For those, who write that the K3 cannot check the front panel due to TX
overhead issues, I don't think there is more processing power needed
during TX, instead, I think it's RX that is more process intensive seen
the number of functions implemented during RX.
On the newer ICOMs, you can change almost everything during TX, once
back in HA, I will check the 1000MPV for this aspect, but as well as I
remember, I had never had this problem using that rig during the many
contests.

======
73, Peter
HA3AUI / 6W2SC / J5UAP http://cqafrica.net

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Brett Howard

Re: disabled controls during TX

In reply to this post by HA3AUI

There are changes starting to take place in this area. At the moment
with the most recently released firmware you can turn the RX antenna
on and off while transmitting. I'm sure that was a test case to prove
that things work as they should. You'll start to get more and more
opened up to you during TX as later firmwares drop I'm certain.

~Brett

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:07 AM, HA3AUI <[hidden email]> wrote: