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elecraft kat1

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E Neubauer

elecraft kat1

Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1, but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions appreciated.
73,Ed KB3SZZ
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: elecraft kat1

Ed,

The KAT1 (and most other similar tuners) do have a difficult time
matching to a high impedance. So if you stay away from end fed antennas
that are a multiple of a half wavelength long, the KAT1 should be able
to match it. Similarly, extremely low impedances may be difficult to match.

You might try adding or subtracting some length to your feedline. I
would suggest starting with a 1/8 wavelength at the frequency that is
giving difficulty.

Try to get the SWR down to 2:1 or less. While the K1 probably will not
be damaged, the power output will go down dramatically with a larger
mismatch.

73,
Don W3FPR

E Neubauer wrote:

> Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1, but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
> Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions appreciated.
> 73,Ed KB3SZZ
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date: 06/19/09 06:53:00
>
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: elecraft kat1

In reply to this post by E Neubauer

Ed,

One other thing - if your match varies from time to time, look for bad
connections in your antenna system. An intermittent connection can
allow good tuning one time and poor results at another time.

73,
Don W3FPR

E Neubauer wrote:

E Neubauer

Re: elecraft kat1

Don:
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely try those things, especially for my attic system. Just a few moments ago, I got rid of my coax feedline altogether and plugged my antenna wire (long wire to the backyard) directly into the K1, via a paperclip. Wow, that made a big difference - got down to about 1.5:1 on both 80m and 40m.
By the way, I have read things about using a _counterpoise_. Is this a sort of substitute for a ground connection? I am interested, because we are going to do some camping over the next couple of weeks and I am taking the K1 along for (hopefully) some outdoor "work".
73, Ed KB3SZZ==================

> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:34:09 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>
> Ed,
>
> One other thing - if your match varies from time to time, look for bad
> connections in your antenna system. An intermittent connection can
> allow good tuning one time and poor results at another time.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> E Neubauer wrote:
> > Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1, but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
> > Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions appreciated.
> > 73,Ed KB3SZZ
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date: 06/19/09 06:53:00
> >
> >

_________________________________________________________________
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AC7AC

Re: elecraft kat1

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

E Neubauer

Re: elecraft kat1

Ron:
Thanks for the information about the counterpoise and feedline. Would using 300 ohm twinlead work better than coax for a kooky attic dipole I constructed? With RG-6 coax and no ground, it seems to work fairly well on 40 meters.
I have a couple of other antenna questions:
Grounding: I am currently using the third prong of my electrical socket for that. It is connected to the house plumbing in the basement. Is this acceptable? Should I use this for dipoles and loops, as well as long wires?
Reception: I have made a couple of contacts in VA and IN with folks who give me an RST of 599. In both cases, their signal was fair - around 478 at best, but drifting. I was wondering why there is such a difference. Isn't propagation usually a two-way street?
Thanks.
73,
Ed KB3SZZ====================

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:43:28 -0700
>
> Hi Ed:
>
> I don't have a K1, but I agree with everything Don said.
>
> Your situation sounds a bit strange though, because I know a number of
> people who have K1's who typically have not problem loading all sorts of odd
> "end fed" wires.
>
> You are right to get rid of the coax in almost any situation like that. Coax
> has huge losses at high SWRs. The ATU only ensures a match between the
> antenna where it connects to the rig and the finals in your K1. It does
> *nothing* to reduce the SWR on the feed line between the rig and antenna.
>
> A counterpoise is used to produce a low impedance at the rig. It's usually
> 1/4 wavelength long. A 1/4 wave long conductor with the far end insulated
> will show a low impedance at rig end. It can replace an extensive RF
> grounding system, although a simple one-wire counterpoise is seldom as
> effective. However, it's world's better than no counterpoise or ground at
> all. Having a counterpoise or RF ground does two things: 1) It keeps
> troublesome RF voltages off of the case of your K1, the key, etc. 2) It
> greatly increases the efficiency of the radiator (antenna) when the antenna
> is an odd multiple of 1/4 wave long or less than 1/4 wave long.
>
> You'll want two counterpoise wires for your setup: one 66 feet long (1/4
> wavelength on 80) and one 33 feet long (1/4 wave on 40). You can connect
> both in parallel to the case or ground lug on your K1 and leave them
> attached at all times. They won't interfere with each other. Indeed, you can
> run the two wires alongside each other but separate them the last several
> feet and be sure the ends are insulated from each other and from other
> objects.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of E Neubauer
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 6:21 PM
> To: Donald Wilhelm
> Cc: Elecraft Bulletin Board
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>
>
> Don:
> Thanks for the advice. I will definitely try those things, especially for
> my attic system. Just a few moments ago, I got rid of my coax feedline
> altogether and plugged my antenna wire (long wire to the backyard) directly
> into the K1, via a paperclip. Wow, that made a big difference - got down to
> about 1.5:1 on both 80m and 40m.
> By the way, I have read things about using a _counterpoise_. Is this a sort
> of substitute for a ground connection? I am interested, because we are
> going to do some camping over the next couple of weeks and I am taking the
> K1 along for (hopefully) some outdoor "work".
> 73, Ed KB3SZZ==================
>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:34:09 -0400
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > CC: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> > One other thing - if your match varies from time to time, look for bad
> > connections in your antenna system. An intermittent connection can
> > allow good tuning one time and poor results at another time.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > E Neubauer wrote:
> > > Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have
> difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the
> time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1,
> but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a
> townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and
> loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match
> wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the
> 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
> > > Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to
> operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions
> appreciated.
> > > 73,Ed KB3SZZ
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR.
> > >
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
> al_QuickAdd_062009
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date:
> 06/19/09 06:53:00
> > >
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
> al_QuickAdd_062009
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: elecraft kat1

In reply to this post by E Neubauer

Ed,

Actually "counterpoise" is a misnomer. When implemented, it is a part
of the antenna system. Yes, a 1/4 wave 'counterpoise' will produce a
low impedance at the shack end, and will tend to keep RF-in-the-shack
problems to a minimum.

A coax feedline for multi-band operation is not the best - use coax only
for resonant antennas and use parallel conductor feedline for
non-resonant antennas. In the case of an attic antenna, the use of
'counterpoises' may be necessary because the antenna energy can be
present in the shack due to the close coupling.

Good luck on your camping adventures with the K1. An 88 (to 135) foot
radiator center fed with 300 or 450 ohm parallel line will serve you
well on both 80 and 40 meters. Hang it as a dipole or as an inverted
Vee. Use a 44 ft to 66 ft length for 40 meters only.

73,
Don W3FPR

E Neubauer wrote:

> Don:
> Thanks for the advice. I will definitely try those things, especially for my attic system. Just a few moments ago, I got rid of my coax feedline altogether and plugged my antenna wire (long wire to the backyard) directly into the K1, via a paperclip. Wow, that made a big difference - got down to about 1.5:1 on both 80m and 40m.
> By the way, I have read things about using a _counterpoise_. Is this a sort of substitute for a ground connection? I am interested, because we are going to do some camping over the next couple of weeks and I am taking the K1 along for (hopefully) some outdoor "work".
> 73, Ed KB3SZZ==================
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:34:09 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> One other thing - if your match varies from time to time, look for bad
>> connections in your antenna system. An intermittent connection can
>> allow good tuning one time and poor results at another time.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> E Neubauer wrote:
>>
>>> Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1, but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
>>> Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions appreciated.
>>> 73,Ed KB3SZZ
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
>>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date: 06/19/09 06:53:00
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date: 06/19/09 06:53:00
>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: elecraft kat1

In reply to this post by E Neubauer

Ed,

Propagation is a two way street, although there have been a few (very
few) exceptions that I have heard.
The difference is likely to be the antennas at each end - if you have a
poor antenna and the other end of the QSO have good antennas, they will
hear you quite well but you may have trouble copying them.

As for your ground - do try to install a separate ground for the station
if you can - but it must be tied back to the electrical service ground
rod with a large conductor (#4 or #6 wire). Try to run that connection
on the outside of the building if possible. That is not an RF Ground,
but it is a safety ground and will help to bleed of static charges that
come in from your antenna.

An RF Ground is something else entirely, and the counterpoise wires may
be the best you can do for an RF Ground in your situation. I won't go
into a long discussion about RF Ground right now, but it is something
that ideally should exist at the antenna and then be continued on to the
shack on the antenna feedline (in some cases baluns can aid that
situation. A proper RF Ground and antenna/feedline installation will
keep RF out of the shack and on the antenna where it belongs. Balanced
antennas fed with properly installed parallel feedline create their own
RF Ground - conceptually at the center of the antenna feedpoint, and
that is the situation I normally strive for. RF will always create its
return path to RF Ground, and what is needed is to control that path for
the most antenna efficiency and lack of RF at random places.

73,
Don W3FPR

E Neubauer wrote:

> Ron:
> Thanks for the information about the counterpoise and feedline. Would using 300 ohm twinlead work better than coax for a kooky attic dipole I constructed? With RG-6 coax and no ground, it seems to work fairly well on 40 meters.
> I have a couple of other antenna questions:
> Grounding: I am currently using the third prong of my electrical socket for that. It is connected to the house plumbing in the basement. Is this acceptable? Should I use this for dipoles and loops, as well as long wires?
> Reception: I have made a couple of contacts in VA and IN with folks who give me an RST of 599. In both cases, their signal was fair - around 478 at best, but drifting. I was wondering why there is such a difference. Isn't propagation usually a two-way street?
> Thanks.
> 73,
> Ed KB3SZZ====================
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:43:28 -0700
>>
>> Hi Ed:
>>
>> I don't have a K1, but I agree with everything Don said.
>>
>> Your situation sounds a bit strange though, because I know a number of
>> people who have K1's who typically have not problem loading all sorts of odd
>> "end fed" wires.
>>
>> You are right to get rid of the coax in almost any situation like that. Coax
>> has huge losses at high SWRs. The ATU only ensures a match between the
>> antenna where it connects to the rig and the finals in your K1. It does
>> *nothing* to reduce the SWR on the feed line between the rig and antenna.
>>
>> A counterpoise is used to produce a low impedance at the rig. It's usually
>> 1/4 wavelength long. A 1/4 wave long conductor with the far end insulated
>> will show a low impedance at rig end. It can replace an extensive RF
>> grounding system, although a simple one-wire counterpoise is seldom as
>> effective. However, it's world's better than no counterpoise or ground at
>> all. Having a counterpoise or RF ground does two things: 1) It keeps
>> troublesome RF voltages off of the case of your K1, the key, etc. 2) It
>> greatly increases the efficiency of the radiator (antenna) when the antenna
>> is an odd multiple of 1/4 wave long or less than 1/4 wave long.
>>
>> You'll want two counterpoise wires for your setup: one 66 feet long (1/4
>> wavelength on 80) and one 33 feet long (1/4 wave on 40). You can connect
>> both in parallel to the case or ground lug on your K1 and leave them
>> attached at all times. They won't interfere with each other. Indeed, you can
>> run the two wires alongside each other but separate them the last several
>> feet and be sure the ends are insulated from each other and from other
>> objects.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of E Neubauer
>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 6:21 PM
>> To: Donald Wilhelm
>> Cc: Elecraft Bulletin Board
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>>
>>
>> Don:
>> Thanks for the advice. I will definitely try those things, especially for
>> my attic system. Just a few moments ago, I got rid of my coax feedline
>> altogether and plugged my antenna wire (long wire to the backyard) directly
>> into the K1, via a paperclip. Wow, that made a big difference - got down to
>> about 1.5:1 on both 80m and 40m.
>> By the way, I have read things about using a _counterpoise_. Is this a sort
>> of substitute for a ground connection? I am interested, because we are
>> going to do some camping over the next couple of weeks and I am taking the
>> K1 along for (hopefully) some outdoor "work".
>> 73, Ed KB3SZZ==================
>>
>>
>>> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:34:09 -0400
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> CC: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] elecraft kat1
>>>
>>> Ed,
>>>
>>> One other thing - if your match varies from time to time, look for bad
>>> connections in your antenna system. An intermittent connection can
>>> allow good tuning one time and poor results at another time.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> E Neubauer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello: I have noticed that my k1 (with the kat1) seems to have
>>>>
>> difficulty obtaining a low SWR with most of my antenna efforts. Most of the
>> time, it stays at 4:1 or higher. I have been successful at obtaining 1:1,
>> but it is kind of hit-or-miss and only works for one band. I live in a
>> townhouse, so options aren't great, but I've mostly tried long wires and
>> loops in the attic and yard. Still, I thought obtaining a decent match
>> wouldn't be so hard, especially on 40 meters. I should note that I have the
>> 2-band filter board for 40 & 80 meters.
>>
>>>> Also, I am new to ham radio, so I am not sure whether it is safe to
>>>>
>> operate the rig when the SWR is that high. Comments or suggestions
>> appreciated.
>>
>>>> 73,Ed KB3SZZ
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR.
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
>> al_QuickAdd_062009
>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date:
>>>>
>> 06/19/09 06:53:00
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR.
>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
>> al_QuickAdd_062009
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try bing_1x1
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.80/2187 - Release Date: 06/19/09 06:53:00
>
>