in-band-IMD test
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GA for all K3 users.
So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound of K3. So many talks about "analog K3 sound" on e-ham. But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band IMD? You can read about "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 Or you can simply look on the pictures, where is in-band IMD-measurements of SDR-5000, IC-7800, IC-756pro2 and K3 - so bad for HI-FI sound announced by many K3-users: it's for S9-level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=31966 and it's for S9+50 level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 and even measurements of S/S+N-rate is poor: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32003 Alex de UR5LAM RU-QRP-C#103 K3/100F #0568 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Alex:
This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE OUT ports. I've measured similar levels, and shown how they might be reduced. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm You will not see the same degree of distortion on the headphone output port. Jack K8ZOA Alexander Ponomarenko wrote: > GA for all K3 users. > So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound of K3. > So many talks about "analog K3 sound" on e-ham. > But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band IMD? > You can read about "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: > http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 > > Or you can simply look on the pictures, where is in-band > IMD-measurements of > SDR-5000, IC-7800, IC-756pro2 and K3 - so bad for HI-FI sound > announced by many K3-users: > it's for S9-level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=31966 > and it's for S9+50 level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 > and even measurements of S/S+N-rate is poor: > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32003 > > Alex de UR5LAM > RU-QRP-C#103 > K3/100F #0568 > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:24:27 -0500, Jack Smith wrote:
>This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE OUT ports. >I've measured similar levels, and shown how they might be reduced. >You will not see the same degree of distortion on the headphone output >port. Agreed on both counts. The Line Out is poorly designed, and that's the problem. You'll find corresponding data on my website, measured using an entirely different procedure. http://audiosystemsgroup.com/K3FilterStudy.pdf and http://audiosystemsgroup.com/FilterTestNotes.pdf 73. Jim Brown K9YC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6
Jack,
all these measurements, for all radios has been via PHONE-OUT. There is two-tone measurements, but you can see these IMD even with XG1 set to s9-level. Here is my K3 with s9-signal from XG1: - ATT On http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32030 - ATT/PRE Off http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32031 - PRE On (it's terrible) http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32032 P.S. Yes, I visited clifton-web, line-out has same distortion as phone-out. :-( Alex de UR5LAM Jack Smith wrote: Alex: This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE OUT ports. I've measured similar levels, and shown how they might be reduced. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm You will not see the same degree of distortion on the headphone output port. Jack K8ZOA Alexander Ponomarenko wrote: GA for all K3 users. So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound of K3. So many talks about "analog K3 sound" on e-ham. But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band IMD? You can read about "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 Or you can simply look on the pictures, where is in-band IMD-measurements of SDR-5000, IC-7800, IC-756pro2 and K3 - so bad for HI-FI sound announced by many K3-users: it's for S9-level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=31966 and it's for S9+50 level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 and even measurements of S/S+N-rate is poor: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32003 Alex de UR5LAM RU-QRP-C#103 K3/100F #0568 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6
> This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE > OUT ports. I've measured similar levels, and shown how they > might be reduced. > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm Elecraft have changed the series resistors from 604 to 50 Ohms in current production. See the October schematic updates on their web site. I'm assuming a change in the schematics indicates the modification is now "approved." 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jack Smith > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:24 PM > To: Alexander Ponomarenko; 'Elecraft' > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] in-band-IMD test > > > Alex: > > This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE > OUT ports. > I've measured similar levels, and shown how they might be > reduced. > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm > > You will not see the same degree of distortion on the > headphone output > port. > > Jack K8ZOA > > > Alexander Ponomarenko wrote: > > GA for all K3 users. > > So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound of K3. > > So many talks about "analog K3 sound" on e-ham. > > But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band IMD? > > You can read about "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: > > > http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&& > > start=0 > > > > Or you can simply look on the pictures, where is in-band > > IMD-measurements of > > SDR-5000, IC-7800, IC-756pro2 and K3 - so bad for HI-FI sound > > announced by many K3-users: > > it's for S9-level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=31966 > > and it's for S9+50 level http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 > > and even measurements of S/S+N-rate is poor: > > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32003 > > > > Alex de UR5LAM > > RU-QRP-C#103 > > K3/100F #0568 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Alexander Ponomarenko-5
Please take two consecutive spectrum readings with PRE On, AGC Off from the headphone jack - take one with S9 signal from XG1 and take the second with the XG1 generator turned off (i.e., with no signal in the passband). Please post these two spectra. I suspect many of the spikes in your spectrum reading are not related to the received signal. Thanks, Barry N1EU |
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2008/11/13 Barry N1EU <[hidden email]>
Barry,
S9 with Pre On, AGC Off you can see in my previous message.
Here is plot without XG1-tone-signal (here is from line-out, but via PHONES it's equal, yes, tomorrow you will see both plots for PHONES-out):
Guys, do you remember as we has built ours K2's?
Do you remember the Spectrogram-soft? Try use it and you will see these plots.
Alex de UR5LAM _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I'll wait for consecutive PHONES-out plots run tomorrow Alex - exact same levels, etc - taken with XG1 on and XG1 off. FYI, I use SpectraLab here as well. Thanks & 73, Barry N1EU |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3
G'day,
I see there is a mod kit $10 but no details available on the "K3 enhancements and application notes" page on the web site. The manual would be interesting. Regards, Mike VP8NO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> To: "'Jack Smith'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] in-band-IMD test | | | > This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the LINE | > OUT ports. I've measured similar levels, and shown how they | > might be reduced. | > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm | | Elecraft have changed the series resistors from 604 to 50 Ohms | in current production. See the October schematic updates on | their web site. | | I'm assuming a change in the schematics indicates the modification | is now "approved." | | | 73, | | ... Joe, W4TV _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3
Anyone know at S/N # the new K3's started being changed to new
resistor? Thanks and 73, Bill N4ZI --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] in-band-IMD test > To: "'Jack Smith'" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 4:37 PM > > This is an issue with the isolation transformers in the > LINE > > OUT ports. I've measured similar levels, and > shown how they > > might be reduced. > > > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm > > Elecraft have changed the series resistors from 604 to 50 > Ohms > in current production. See the October schematic updates > on > their web site. > > I'm assuming a change in the schematics indicates the > modification > is now "approved." > > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Jack Smith > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:24 PM > > To: Alexander Ponomarenko; 'Elecraft' > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] in-band-IMD test > > > > > > Alex: > > > > This is an issue with the isolation transformers in > the LINE > > OUT ports. > > I've measured similar levels, and shown how they > might be > > reduced. > > > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm > > > > You will not see the same degree of distortion on the > > > headphone output > > port. > > > > Jack K8ZOA > > > > > > Alexander Ponomarenko wrote: > > > GA for all K3 users. > > > So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound > of K3. > > > So many talks about "analog K3 sound" > on e-ham. > > > But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band > IMD? > > > You can read about > "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: > > > > > > http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&& > > > start=0 > > > > > > Or you can simply look on the pictures, where is > in-band > > > IMD-measurements of > > > SDR-5000, IC-7800, IC-756pro2 and K3 - so bad for > HI-FI sound > > > announced by many K3-users: > > > it's for S9-level > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=31966 > > > and it's for S9+50 level > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 > > > and even measurements of S/S+N-rate is poor: > > > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32003 > > > > > > Alex de UR5LAM > > > RU-QRP-C#103 > > > K3/100F #0568 > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Alexander Ponomarenko-5
Alexander:
Sorry but I don't read Russian. What were the K3's AGC settings for the IMD measurements? At a large input signal (S9+50 dB), using a "Fast" AGC time constant will often result in poor IMD for conventional receivers using analog type of AGC systems. I don't know the details of the K3's AGC system, however. Have you tried the S9+50 dB input signal with the "Slow" AGC setting? 73, Dean Straw, N6BV <quote author="Alexander Ponomarenko-5"> GA for all K3 users. So many guys has talks about perfect audio sound of K3. So many talks about "analog K3 sound" on e-ham. But how it possible if K3 have the so bad in-band IMD? You can read about "in-band-IMD-measurements" in russian here: http://forum.cqham.ru/viewtopic.php?t=17119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 |
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In reply to this post by Alexander Ponomarenko-5
Barry,
yes PHONES-OUT on front panel(!!!) is different from rear panel PHONES or LINE OUT outs. The plots from front-panel phones-out is better, but IMD spikes are present. plot withoot S9 signal: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32055 S9 PRE On AGC Off: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32057 S9 PRE On AGC SLOW: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32056 Alex de UR5LAM Alex Ponomarenko wrote: > 2008/11/13 Barry N1EU <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> > > > Alexander Ponomarenko-5 wrote: > > > > all these measurements, for all radios has been via PHONE-OUT. > > There is two-tone measurements, but you can see these IMD even > with XG1 > > set to s9-level. > > Here is my K3 with s9-signal from XG1: > > - ATT On http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32030 > > - ATT/PRE Off http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32031 > > - PRE On (it's terrible) > http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32032 > > > > Please take two consecutive spectrum readings with PRE On, AGC Off > from the > headphone jack - take one with S9 signal from XG1 and take the > second with > the XG1 generator turned off (i.e., with no signal in the > passband). Please > post these two spectra. > > I suspect many of the spikes in your spectrum reading are not > related to the > received signal. > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Alex,
Good job! 73 Arie PA3A -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Namens Alexander Ponomarenko Verzonden: donderdag 13 november 2008 9:49 CC: [hidden email] Onderwerp: Re: [K3] [Elecraft] in-band-IMD test Barry, yes PHONES-OUT on front panel(!!!) is different from rear panel PHONES or LINE OUT outs. The plots from front-panel phones-out is better, but IMD spikes are present. plot withoot S9 signal: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32055 S9 PRE On AGC Off: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32057 S9 PRE On AGC SLOW: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32056 Alex de UR5LAM _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dean Straw
The Audio mod is a very simply! You just need to add simple two resistor pararell on KIO3 module and replace one RFI choke! If anyone need mode just send me mail and I will forward pdf direct ! 73, E72X, <quote author="Dean Straw"> Alexander: Sorry but I don't read Russian. What were the K3's AGC settings for the IMD measurements? At a large input signal (S9+50 dB), using a "Fast" AGC time constant will often result in poor IMD for conventional receivers using analog type of AGC systems. I don't know the details of the K3's AGC system, however. Have you tried the S9+50 dB input signal with the "Slow" AGC setting? 73, Dean Straw, N6BV
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In reply to this post by Dean Straw
The Audio mod is a very simply! You just need to add simple two resistor pararell on KIO3 module and replace one RFI choke! If anyone need mode just send me mail and I will forward pdf direct ! 73, E72X, <quote author="Dean Straw"> Alexander: Sorry but I don't read Russian. What were the K3's AGC settings for the IMD measurements? At a large input signal (S9+50 dB), using a "Fast" AGC time constant will often result in poor IMD for conventional receivers using analog type of AGC systems. I don't know the details of the K3's AGC system, however. Have you tried the S9+50 dB input signal with the "Slow" AGC setting? 73, Dean Straw, N6BV
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In reply to this post by Dean Straw
The Audio mod is a very simply! You just need to add simple two resistor pararell on KIO3 module and replace one RFI choke! If anyone need mode just send me mail and I will forward pdf direct ! 73, E72X, <quote author="Dean Straw"> Alexander: Sorry but I don't read Russian. What were the K3's AGC settings for the IMD measurements? At a large input signal (S9+50 dB), using a "Fast" AGC time constant will often result in poor IMD for conventional receivers using analog type of AGC systems. I don't know the details of the K3's AGC system, however. Have you tried the S9+50 dB input signal with the "Slow" AGC setting? 73, Dean Straw, N6BV
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In reply to this post by Dean Straw
The Audio mod is a very simply! You just need to add simple two resistor pararell on KIO3 module and replace one RFI choke! If anyone need mode just send me mail and I will forward pdf direct ! 73, E72X, <quote author="Dean Straw"> Alexander: Sorry but I don't read Russian. What were the K3's AGC settings for the IMD measurements? At a large input signal (S9+50 dB), using a "Fast" AGC time constant will often result in poor IMD for conventional receivers using analog type of AGC systems. I don't know the details of the K3's AGC system, however. Have you tried the S9+50 dB input signal with the "Slow" AGC setting? 73, Dean Straw, N6BV
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In reply to this post by E72X
Hallo,
> The Audio mod is a very simply! You just need to add simple two resistor > pararell on KIO3 module and replace one RFI choke! If anyone need mode just > send me mail and I will forward pdf direct ! Has this modification been blessed by Elecraft or is it an unofficial mod? Is the PDF an official doc by Elecraft? vy 73 de toby _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Alexander Ponomarenko-5
Thanks for running the test again Alex! First off, is this really IMD we're looking at? Aren't you injecting a single signal? Isn't this harmonic distortion, not IMD? Looking at the s9 agc off pre on plot, the worst "distortion" product is still >60dB down. It would be nice if we saw zero distortion products, but I suspect that the distortion seen here is completely inaudible. 73, Barry N1EU |
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Barry N1EU wrote:
> Alexander Ponomarenko-5 wrote: > >> yes PHONES-OUT on front panel(!!!) is different from rear panel PHONES >> or LINE OUT outs. >> >> The plots from front-panel phones-out is better, but IMD spikes are >> present. >> >> plot withoot S9 signal: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32055 >> S9 PRE On AGC Off: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32057 >> S9 PRE On AGC SLOW: http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32056 > Thanks for running the test again Alex! > > First off, is this really IMD we're looking at? Aren't you injecting a > single signal? Isn't this harmonic distortion, not IMD? > > Looking at the s9 agc off pre on plot, the worst "distortion" product is > still >60dB down. It would be nice if we saw zero distortion products, but > I suspect that the distortion seen here is completely inaudible. > > 73, > Barry N1EU > now I have only one-tone generator XG1 with S3 and S9 level. But in my first message you can to see TWO-TONE in-band IMD results for ic7800, ic756pro2, Flex-5k and K3 for S9 and S9+50 levels. For all these Radios was used same measure-method on one table. And of course AF-out for all it was from PHONES-out on FP. s9+50 AGC-Fast PRE-On http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 s9 AGC-Fast PRE-On http://forum.cqham.ru/download.php?id=32004 These results from Alex UR0ID. The FireBox sound-card are no been overloaded. But hope I get two-tone generator from Alex, and also check my K3 for two-tone IMD. Alex de UR5LAM _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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