k2 iambic modes
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Is the manual incorrect on the menu mode for Iambic? It lists Iambic A as
being the easier to operate. I believe it should state Iambic B. 73s john-n3drk _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Either statement would be wrong to some fists. Use the one you learned. If
you are learning, I suggest B. Others might suggest A. Good luck! Dan / WG4S / Southpaw B'er / K2 #2456 <snip> Is the manual incorrect on the menu mode for Iambic? It lists Iambic A as being the easier to operate. I believe it should state Iambic B. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by n3drk
Maybe "easier" is all relative. If you learned on Iambic A then it is easier, if you learned on Iambic B then it is probably easier. The one that is more difficult is probably the one that you didn't learn on.
I didn't learn both and am not fully aware of the subtle differences between the two. I do know that I was glad there was an option because whatever the default value was didn't work well for my sending style! I found the menu option and it became just as easy as sending with other electronic keyers that I was already used to. Mark, NK8Q >From: n3drk <[hidden email]> >Date: Wed Jan 25 10:01:11 CST 2006 >To: elecraft <[hidden email]> >Subject: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes >Is the manual incorrect on the menu mode for Iambic? It lists Iambic A as >being the easier to operate. I believe it should state Iambic B. >73s >john-n3drk > >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dan Barker
Rule of "thumb"...if you expect no more dits after you let go of the paddle,
use mode A.. If you like having a dit added because you held onto the dah paddle a bit too long use mode B. Which is easier? When I let go of the paddle I want the dit or dah that I am hearing to be the last thing sent...Mode A. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Barker" <[hidden email]> To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes > Either statement would be wrong to some fists. Use the one you learned. If > you are learning, I suggest B. Others might suggest A. Good luck! > > Dan / WG4S / Southpaw B'er / K2 #2456 > > <snip> > Is the manual incorrect on the menu mode for Iambic? It lists Iambic A as > being the easier to operate. I believe it should state Iambic B. > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Folks,
The fact that mode B can send a dit just by holding the dah paddle a bit longer has always boggled my mind - if I want a dit, I feel I should tap the dit paddle!!! Mode B can drive me nuts. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Tom Althoff > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:52 AM > To: elecraft > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes > > > Rule of "thumb"...if you expect no more dits after you let go of > the paddle, > use mode A.. > If you like having a dit added because you held onto the dah paddle a bit > too long use mode B. > > Which is easier? > > When I let go of the paddle I want the dit or dah that I am hearing to be > the last thing sent...Mode A. > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by n3drk
Southpaw means Left Handed (That's the hand to use, well, never mind).
B'er means I send iambic mode B. I can't make A work at all. It leaves out elements I intend. I don't know what all the fuss about "extra" dits from the dah paddle is all about. The timing is simply different for completing what you are doing when you quit doing it. Different and Bad are two distinct concepts (tell that to a racist). I believe B is more prevalent than A, but someone who's learned A will have a great deal of difficulty with B, and vice versa. I guess I learned on B - I KNOW I learned on a Heathkit HD-1410. I also think the K2 defaults to A, and I thought I'd lost my mind (or fist, at least) when I first tried to use it. Luckily, I didn't fight that fight very long. I found the menu setting to change. In any case, there is an excellent comparison of the two, with timing diagrams, referred to somewhere in the archives of this reflector. Might be interesting reading if you haven't learned one or the other already. The fru-fru is about character completion. If I want to send a C, as in CQ, I squeeze the paddles. I'll be sure the dah paddle closes first and since I'm holding both, the keyer will send dahdidahdidahdidahdidahdit until I let go. I let go OF BOTH paddles during the second dah. Character completion sends another dit and the C is complete. I believe the A camp has to hold both paddles (or only the dit on - doesn't matter) until the final dit begins, and then let go. My addled brain can "let go of both" during a dah at three times the speed it can manage to "let go of both" during a dit. So, I'm a B'er. Another thing which makes Iambic keying shine, is element insertion. I believe it's the same in both (if there's a difference, it's going to be WHEN you do the insertion, not IF you can do the insertion). To send a Q, you mash the dah paddle and hold it until the character is complete. During the second dah, dab at the dit paddle. Between the second and third dah, the keyer will stick in one dit, making the Q perfect. So, CQ is squeeze (dah-first) release dah insert a dit release (dah) in both modes. But the timing is what is different. Clear as mud? Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456 <snip> Thanks Dan. By the way what is a Southpaw B'er? And we must have purchased our K2's within days. My serial number is 2444. 73s john </snip> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by n3drk
Well, that isn't iambic, so maybe it won't matter. You should try squeeze
keying some time. Dial it back to 9 wpm and really pay attention to what it's doing while you try to minimize what you are doing with your fingers. You'll send faster, and with less fatigue. Also, the key will stay in one place on the operating table<g>. I'm sure, slapper or not, you make use of some of the keyer logic, such that an N is dah paddle, dit paddle, with both of them made and broken before the first element is complete. It's only natural. You probably do: dah dah dit dit close open close open while the keyer does: daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah diiiiiit whereas I probably do: dah dit release close close both while the keyer does: daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah diiiiiit Not a lot of difference in effort or the keyer results. The only big deal is on the "interesting" (from the point of view of Iambic) characters: C, F, K, L, Q, R, Y, and period. Do you really smack it four times to make an F? Dan <snip> Well, I'm left handed, but I send right-handed so I can still write. And, I'm part of the group (generally OT's) that just slap the paddles back and forth since my first "paddle" was a modified Lionel J-36. I will check and see which mode I'm using as soon as I find it in the K2 menu. I suspect it doesn't matter. Fred K6DGW </snip> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dan Barker
At 11:21 AM 2006-01-25, Dan Barker wrote:
>The fru-fru is about character completion. If I want to send a C, as in CQ, >I squeeze the paddles. I'll be sure the dah paddle closes first and since >I'm holding both, the keyer will send dahdidahdidahdidahdidahdit until I let >go. I let go OF BOTH paddles during the second dah. Character completion >sends another dit and the C is complete. > >I believe the A camp has to hold both paddles (or only the dit on - doesn't >matter) until the final dit begins, and then let go. > >My addled brain can "let go of both" during a dah at three times the speed >it can manage to "let go of both" during a dit. So, I'm a B'er. But if you only want a 'K', you have to let go during the dit (or a little after, depending on the mode B implementation). It sure would be nice (for me, anyway) to be able to custom tweak the timing to something half-way between A and B. 73, Terry N6RY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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That's not how a K is sent. A K is a dah with a dit-insert. I think the
fru-fru _MAY_ be that it's difficult to slap the key to B, but you can to A. However, if you are squeeze keying, either will work - AFTER you learn the timing. Mode A K: dah: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH dit: DIT keys: Daaaaaaah dit daaaaaaah Mode B K: dah: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH dit: DIT keys: Daaaaaaah dit daaaaaaah Interesting, THESE are identical. The limits of where you can let go of the DAH paddle probably differ, but the "normal" K is the same in both A and B. Hold the DAH for the duration of the letter. Stick in a dit sometime before the end of the first dah. Maybe mode B will create an additional dah output if you release the dah inside the letter. I don't know, because that's not squeeze (iambic) keying. That's just wrong. Dan <snip> But if you only want a 'K', you have to let go during the dit (or a little after, depending on the mode B implementation). </snip> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Dan is right...it now comes down to personal "touch". K can be squeezed
(both paddles held and let go at the 2nd dash) or dit-inserted (while holding dash, tap dit then let go). Dan's chart shows "dit inserted" paddle movement. I "squeeze" my K's and this is where the difference between the two modes bites the A user... Mode A K "squeezed" looks like this. Dah lever: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Dit lever: DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT Keys Daaaaaaah di Daaaaah A mode A user squeezing a K in Mode B looks like this: Dah lever: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Dit lever: DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT <<<<must let go of dit paddle sooner to avoid last dit. Keys Daaaaaaah di Daaaaah dit The 2nd example is really how a B moder would send a C but if he sat at A mode keyer he'd only get a K! It's going from one mode to the other that causes mistakes...neither mode is bad. B allows for less finger motion I believe and perhaps if it was available when I first learned iambic keying I would prefer it. I actually mix sqeeze with dot and dash insertion fingering nowadays because it seems to generate the correct letters most of the time for me. Whatever floats your boat. When the Orion first came out it ONLY offered Mode B. There were enough complaints to cause them to add mode A in an early firmware update. We are a nation divided! Code vs No Code, Bugs vs straight keys on SKN and now A'ers vs B'ers. LOL. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Barker" <[hidden email]> To: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes > That's not how a K is sent. A K is a dah with a dit-insert. I think the > fru-fru _MAY_ be that it's difficult to slap the key to B, but you can to A. > However, if you are squeeze keying, either will work - AFTER you learn the > timing. > > > Mode A K: > dah: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH > dit: DIT > keys: Daaaaaaah dit daaaaaaah > > Mode B K: > dah: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH > dit: DIT > keys: Daaaaaaah dit daaaaaaah > > Interesting, THESE are identical. The limits of where you can let go of > DAH paddle probably differ, but the "normal" K is the same in both A and B. > Hold the DAH for the duration of the letter. Stick in a dit sometime before > the end of the first dah. > > Maybe mode B will create an additional dah output if you release the dah > inside the letter. I don't know, because that's not squeeze (iambic) keying. > That's just wrong. > > Dan > > <snip> > But if you only want a 'K', you have to let go during the dit (or a > little after, depending on the mode B implementation). > </snip> > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Mark J. Schreiner
This is interesting. I learned on Iambic A, and that's what I used
for years on my CMOS keyer. When I started using the Iambic A on the K2, however, I found it frustrating beyond belief. As a lark, I switched to the K2's Iambic B, and, lo, it was great. It worked as naturally to me as the A with the CMOS. So go figure. I eventually switched the CMOS to B as well, and all goes nicely. So go figure. In any event, if you're trying to determine which to use, give them both a try. Take the one that seems initially most reasonable, and then stop thinking about it. Just send. best wishes, dave belsley, w1euy On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:28 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote: > Maybe "easier" is all relative. If you learned on Iambic A then it > is easier, if you learned on Iambic B then it is probably easier. > The one that is more difficult is probably the one that you didn't > learn on. > > I didn't learn both and am not fully aware of the subtle > differences between the two. I do know that I was glad there was > an option because whatever the default value was didn't work well > for my sending style! I found the menu option and it became just > as easy as sending with other electronic keyers that I was already > used to. > > Mark, NK8Q > > >> From: n3drk <[hidden email]> >> Date: Wed Jan 25 10:01:11 CST 2006 >> To: elecraft <[hidden email]> >> Subject: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes > >> Is the manual incorrect on the menu mode for Iambic? It lists >> Iambic A as >> being the easier to operate. I believe it should state Iambic B. >> 73s >> john-n3drk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: [hidden email] >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Tom Althoff
Har! You guys remind me of why, after 20 years on the paddles, I put my
Iambic keyer on the shelf and use my Bug. Not only is it no more difficult to get the timing right, it's perfectly capable of making long dashes for zero, etc. When I do use a keyer such as the one in my KX1 for portability, I simply use it like a bug. The problem is the logic won't let me make a proper long dah for a zero. Sigh... I know, a keyer is less effort over time, but I'm one of those nuts who takes the stairs instead of the elevator too... Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Althoff Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 3:33 PM To: Elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k2 iambic modes Dan is right...it now comes down to personal "touch". K can be squeezed (both paddles held and let go at the 2nd dash) or dit-inserted (while holding dash, tap dit then let go). Dan's chart shows "dit inserted" paddle movement. I "squeeze" my K's and this is where the difference between the two modes bites the A user... Mode A K "squeezed" looks like this. Dah lever: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Dit lever: DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT Keys Daaaaaaah di Daaaaah A mode A user squeezing a K in Mode B looks like this: Dah lever: DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Dit lever: DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT <<<<must let go of dit paddle sooner to avoid last dit. Keys Daaaaaaah di Daaaaah dit The 2nd example is really how a B moder would send a C but if he sat at A mode keyer he'd only get a K! It's going from one mode to the other that causes mistakes...neither mode is bad. B allows for less finger motion I believe and perhaps if it was available when I first learned iambic keying I would prefer it. I actually mix sqeeze with dot and dash insertion fingering nowadays because it seems to generate the correct letters most of the time for me. Whatever floats your boat. When the Orion first came out it ONLY offered Mode B. There were enough complaints to cause them to add mode A in an early firmware update. We are a nation divided! Code vs No Code, Bugs vs straight keys on SKN and now A'ers vs B'ers. LOL. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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